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Thread: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Peachy! Thats the same rig i drew up for the box keel boat. Plenty of ways to blend colour schemes to hide high topsides, I had the coloured pencils out myself,doing different colour layouts on profile drawing of the 26 Box-keel. Stripes do wonders to hide, or at least take away, some of the reverse sheer look that many dislike.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    While she appears a bit stark, I think she'll look better on the water. I put a piece of paper over the drawing at the waterline, and she looks better. Maybe the relationship between sheer and chine hurts the drawing.
    Have fun with the build and the boat. Please post pics and sailing impressions.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Box boats are the punk rock of NA, so I'd be inclined to go 'loud n proud' with it.


    The Moody 45 DS carries a rectinlinear topside aesthetic. I quite like the contemporary black, white and 'serious' grey scheme: subtle yet defining.





    With a double ender the grey will change its shade both from the midpoint to fore or aft, and a differential from fore to aft as the light will be from one direction with respect to the boat, to create visual interest.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 11-09-2017 at 06:08 AM.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    I found a two-tone grey scheme to work well, even with the pilot house in safety orange......goes with either tan or white sails too.....

  5. #75
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    That grey does look classy, but it's a look that relies totally on keeping the finish perfect. Any grime, dings, smudges or just dried salt spray and it will look like crap. Stronger colors and horizontal bands can alleviate a lot of that. Bolger and Brown both favored flat white latex because it's so easy to touch up. One needs to be realistic about his or her maintenance practices.
    Last edited by Woxbox; 11-09-2017 at 10:26 AM.
    -Dave

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Usually boats look more svelte in the flesh than one expects after studying the plans. But when I've seen Bolger's sharpies on the water, they actually look more ungainly than they do on paper. They appear to sit on the water rather than in it, and they are generally not very beamy in relation to the height of their slab sides. They look like a good kick would flop them over. But I still like them, as one can come to like a flat-faced and overweight mutt.

    I suspect Autumn Leaves will not suffer from this visual shift when she goes from paper to water. The 3-D renderings show this, and her proportions are more to tradition than the more extreme Bolger boxes. Autumn Leaves has a point up front, for starters, and no big square transom on the back end. The rail at center is just 24" above the waterline, which extends for 18 feet. And the beam is a full 5 feet. Despite the slab sides, these are not proportions to make a boat look top heavy or chunky.

    But those slab sides do raise the paint scheme question. Battleship gray to reduce all appearances at any distance? Steam punk, covered with fake rivets and faux brass and copper? Could this be the inspiration?



    Naw, I don't think so. I'll stick with John Harris' plan, but perhaps a dark green in place of the austere black.
    Attachment 5545
    FYI, here's the rig I'll be putting on her:
    The lug yawl is sweet looking.

    As to square boats? We have a punt. It it straight and plumb sided, a perfect rectangle with a dead flat sheer.
    She looks kind of nice on the water, though, despite herself. It’s weird.

    I think this little yawl is lovely, and odd, but very well thought out. I wouldn’t mind having one in some small, sheltered waters somewhere.

    Peace,
    Robert

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Here's an image trimmed at the waterline from a typical viewing angle. The flat sides are obvious enough, and suggest a canal boat aesthetic. A Bolger observation comes to mind -- to paraphrase: the detractors can't understand that the performance they like comes from the look they can't stand. This is a very compact oar and sail boat with very shoal draft and some carrying capacity. It's smaller than these renderings suggest. And to get this much utility in a boat of very moderate length and narrow beam, it kind of has to have a flat bottom and something close to plumb sides. True enough, a production version made in a mold would be shaped differently, but here plywood is the material to be used, which locks in the single-radius curves where there are any.

    Given all of that, I think the look works.

    Waterline view.jpg
    -Dave

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Its a good example of form follows function. The other flat bottom boat, that had to be done that way, that springs to mind is the Elver canoe yawl, though totally different build method; it took a while for my thought process to catch up with exactly why some boats are built to specifics given one mans limitations are anothers imperative. Its all good if it suits your need.
    I found grey to be less fussy than any white,be it flat or gloss. i certainly can not imagine painting any further boats in any kind of white.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Its a good example of form follows function. The other flat bottom boat, that had to be done that way, that springs to mind is the Elver canoe yawl, though totally different build method
    Interesting--I wouldn't have connected Autumn Leaves to Elver--they're both flat-bottomed, but Elver has absolutely no rocker at all. I've never quite reconciled myself to that particular feature of Elver, though early on I contemplated building one.

    Tom
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  10. #80
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Autumn Leaves has the elements of a number of boats, as Harris acknowledges. Elver as a double-ender could be on the list, although it's much lighter; then there's the Dovekie, another light double-ender with a dead-flat bottom. But I think the design is closer to the Bolger Micro -- just draw the stern out to a point and put the ballast inside. About 30 years ago, I bought the plans for Martha Jane, a Bolger, and in profile the two boats look quite similar. But Martha Jane is quite a bit bigger and, of course, has the big squared transom and leeboards. Autumn Leaves is very close conceptually to a boat that Bolger drew many years ago but didn't prove entirely successful: Otter. That was also narrow, light and employed oars for auxiliary power. I'm not that familiar with Michalak's catalog, but he does work in this range too.

    Not everyone's cup of tea, but this class of boats does answer a lot of needs. Maybe when really big 3-D printers are perfected and cheap to rent, quick one-off boats won't be made up of flat panels, but for now the ply box boat does the job for me just fine.
    Last edited by Woxbox; 11-11-2017 at 06:00 PM.
    -Dave

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post

    Not everyone's cup of tea, but this class of boats does answer a lot of needs. Maybe when really big 3-D printers are perfected and cheap to rent, quick one-off boats won't be made up of flat panels, but for now the ply box boat does the job for me just fine.
    Say no more, we all know someone who may call it "sub-optimal", but if it suits YOUR needs, its perfect.

    I bought a whole bunch of Michalak stuff. The payback on the family skiff was quick, simple and cheap to build. and a whole lot of fun to use. I could have built something way more complex, i do enjoy the build process, but i still think some boats give a massive bang for the buck. Im all for people learning stuff, but i see little point in scaring them away with more technical builds. I only met one person who learned to fly before they got a driving license, but she was a rare one.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    "The boat that you use is the best boat," somebody said.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    I sincerely believe that there are many other designs of the same overall length and beam that will prove to perform better and be more comfortable, at sea, than this design will prove to be!
    Jay

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    I sincerely believe that there are many other designs of the same overall length and beam that will prove to perform better and be more comfortable, at sea, than this design will prove to be!
    Jay

    That would be this boat in particular, Jay. Garden's Eel, of course. Done as a stripper or double diagonal ply or something like that, she could live on a trailer well enough. But the build time, for me at least, would be double if not triple that of Autumn Leaves. Easily triple the time if compared to putting together the pre-cut kit for the CLC boat. And though a beautiful boat, Eel does not have as liveable a cabin as Autumn Leaves, and the cockpit is not self-draining. I did consider Eel, but decided it was more of a project than I wanted to launch into. Of course, an Eel does show up on the used market from time to time -- but if a nice one for more than I'll spend putting Autumn Leaves together. Set-up time on the trailer will be quicker with the Harris boat, too.

    So I'm being pragmatic here. If I wanted to spend more time crafting the boat and have a show piece when I was done, of course Eel would win the decision.



    -Dave

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    A valid point Dave. Eel is a real beauty with excellent proportions, but i was a bit shocked just how small she really is. I think each has their own idea of what is physically tight, compared to cosy; to me not that far apart but it does make a big difference.

  16. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    A valid point Dave. Eel is a real beauty with excellent proportions, but i was a bit shocked just how small she really is. I think each has their own idea of what is physically tight, compared to cosy; to me not that far apart but it does make a big difference.


    Yes, Eel is lovely....though small, Holmes made some remarkable and extended trips in her. Recently I have been giving very long looks to another Vivier design—Jewell:







    To my eye, very much in the sensibility of Eel, but with a huge cockpit by comparison. Her cabin would be small, but cozy, and the Jewell’s over all dimensions make her a good deal larger than Autumn Leaves....a tick under 20’ by 7’ 4” vs 18’ by 5’. For myself, I will gladly put the time into a longer and more complex build for a sea kindly and pretty hull form. I have a hard time warming to most Bolger-esque box boats......but when I look at Jewell, it is easy to imagine embarking on trips of the sort Holmes undertook with Eel.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Last edited by John hartmann; 11-15-2017 at 07:17 AM. Reason: punctuation

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Nice, have a word with member Klepper who has a jewel up in Norway if you want a users experience. I do so love a canoe stern, but practicality of a transom id hard to ignore......some of them even look good.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Looks like potentially a lot of weather helm in that Jewel photo in post #86...

    Tom
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    www.tompamperin.com

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Creature comforts are always a concern with pocket designs. Some people are happy with a kayak and a back pack to carry gear in while, others wish to carry the world with them out to sea! It is a matter of personal taste and I am not prone to comment on what will be the best boat to put out to sea in other than if it is of such an un-seakindly hull as to make life miserable off shore, esprecially at night!

    When I was still too young to know any better, I did a delivery on an 19ft ft sloop up the coast of California just a bit over hundred and forty miles miles which, is not very far in a good performing boat that is well fitted out! This boat was a shallow draft centerboard sloop with an outboard rudder. The hull had a flat dead rise midship cross section to the bottom and sharp turn of the bilge to gain more space below and a cockpit that forced the occupants to sit flat on cushions with legs extended straight out which, was very uncomfortable mainly from the miserable motion! The cockpit combing could not be sat upon as it was too thin to support much weight and was like trying to sit on the edge of a meat cleaver! Even placing a cushion over it was no cure as there was not enough space between the combing and outboard rail to allow one to balance comfortably. The out board motor was located in a well that slopped water aboard and also allowed the exhaust to vent back into the cockpit and cabin and was therefor useless! This delivery was done in late winter and the sea and sorrounding air was basically very cold! The centerboard case leaked and allowed bilge water to intruded into the cabin and sloshed around on the cushions that made up a V berth that laid directly on the skin of the hull. This created more cold as clothing was saturated by the wet cushions. Further discomfort came from the fact that the glass fibers of the interior were chopper gun applied and were adrift in the bilge water which added more discomfort to the trip for our crew of three. The boat was also a dog to sail and was a very poor performer to weather due to its bad hull form and rig. Mind you, this was a new boat that the owner had purchased at a boat show. He was unschooled as a sailor and had bought the boat as a result of a glib sales pitch that put stars in his eyes. We made it as far as Newport Beach where I excused myself from taking the boat any further up the coast. I have been aboard boats in weather so heavy that we were layed down flat in the water, under storm canvas, and wondered if the boat would ever right herself but, this was the most miserable trip I have ever made in any sailing boat anywhere!

    So, I would advise anyone who is planning to build a pocket cruiser to truly investigate the practicality of the design. If at all possible, go sailing on a boat such as you are considering to build for your own and then decide what you really want for your very own!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 11-15-2017 at 02:34 PM.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    I appreciate your advice, Jay. And I can say with certainty that if I were going to sail up the Pacific Coast, I'd want an entirely different kind of boat. As you know, the East Coast estuaries and lakes are something altogether different. I do expect Autumn Leaves to sail at a sharp angle of heel in any wind, something I'll have to get re-accustomed too after years with multihulls. Bolger has always made a point of this aspect of narrow sharpie derivatives -- that these box boats present a V bottom to the water when pressed.

    And about that aborted delivery -- was that boat advertised as blue-water capable? It sure sounds like it should not have been.
    Last edited by Woxbox; 11-15-2017 at 08:16 PM.
    -Dave

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Yes Dave, West Coast sailing is mostly all deep water once one leaves the harbor. Please do keep us all posted on the progress with your boat.

    Judging from the of poorly designed layout and the bad shape of the hull of the delivery boat, my opinion is that it would have made a better flower planter box than a boat! I would prefer the little "Eel" myself. Sweet little boat! A friend of mine, who was a chef in Hawaii, had a similar boat and commuted to the Mainland and back between seasons, in his. He made five trips in the time I knew him and his lovely little "Roulette".
    I wish you good fortune with your project no matter what design you choose!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 11-16-2017 at 12:12 PM.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    An added note here is concerning the design of the little "Eel" a boat that is proven to perform well in open ocean and under a variety of conditions.
    Note that the hull has a slight amount of tumble home incorporated into the hull above the water line. This is there in order to avoid creating copious amounts of weather helm when sailing up wind. This hull form obviates the distortion of hull form that normally occurs in a boat with a greater than normal beam length ratio. In short, this boat is a bit like a melon seed in her waterline forms. The tumble home helps balance the hull from being forced to windward more and more as the heel increases. A flat bottom wall sided hull of the same length and beam will not balance as well as the "Eel" does.

    I do see the Vivier "Jewell" as being a wholesome design that will perform well at sea although she is better suited for semi protected waters. That cuddy cabin
    is simular to that with Nathaniel Herreshoff chose for some of his smaller day sailers. It provides a bit of protection when the weather is brisk but is not intended as a fully appointed cabin enclosure.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 11-16-2017 at 01:28 PM.

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