Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234 LastLast
Results 71 to 105 of 108

Thread: Schooner discussions

  1. #71
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Now, there's a long story...
    Posts
    1,698

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Nice to see the photos of Wanderlure II Don! Viellen Dank fur die Fotos! Sind sehr Nett!

    In truth I was happy to see my carving work is still on the transom and the scrolls I did on the stem are still there. And, my old friend is still smiling! The price is certainly right! That is not even close to how much money Jerry Hampton spent on her! Plus the next owner went even further. She is, truly, now a new old boat!! The added glass windows on the locker doors is really a nice touch!
    Jay
    If I were closer, and could make it work...
    Heute ist so ein schöne Tag...

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    14,457

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    I'll contribute a revival of this thread about a Bill Rothrock schooner. Certainly not to everyone's taste with the clipper bow and all!

    Attachment 9924

    Attachment 9925

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-this-schooner
    I see this sheer plan and it reminds me of two boats that I have been very intimate with. The first is William Garden's 48' ketch "Windborne" the second is Hugh Angleman's Mayflower Ketch design. Windborn has a sheer profile that is very simular to this design by Bill Rothrock and the Mayflower Ketch is simular as well. Both boats have pilot houses and high freeboard in relation to their length and both are miserable in a seaway! In fact, Garden's "Windborn" is the only boat I have ever been sea sick on! I certainly hope that this design does not follow suit as it looks very suspicious to me! I trust this design is a motor sailor?
    Jay

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Bay of Islands,N.Z.
    Posts
    29,024

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    One of my favourites is Arcturus, the Alden 390......she was sailing down the harbour yesterday as we were sailing up. We got a text to say our boy was aboard as the deckhand on a charter, lucky fella.
    Been out 3 times!

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Olympia, WA, USA
    Posts
    2,249

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    In '93 I brought the Alden 390 Voyager back from Morocco, via the Canaries, Cape Verdes, Bequia, and Antigua. Three months of amazing sailing on an amazing boat.

    I am a complete sucker for Alden schooners. So far I've sailed aboard Malabar II (the original), When and If, Hearts Desire, and Voyager (390), and sailed in company with several others, most recently Wanderlure II. There's not a dud in the lot.

    Alex

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Mukilteo, WA
    Posts
    3,494

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    The 390 is a lovely boat. Schooners are wonderful things. Only problem with a schooner is that it isn't a ketch!

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Shubenacadie NS
    Posts
    5,303

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Ketches are wonderful things. Only problem with 'em is they're not schooners.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    BC Coast
    Posts
    4,220

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    The 390 is a lovely boat. Schooners are wonderful things. Only problem with a schooner is that it isn't a ketch!
    There's the catch........

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Olympia, WA, USA
    Posts
    2,249

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    The 390 is a lovely boat. Schooners are wonderful things. Only problem with a schooner is that it isn't a ketch!
    Voyager's owner while I was aboard (he died a few years ago; I think his widow now owns her) had bought her a couple decades before. He told the story that when he first bought her, her then-owner had swapped fore and main masts so that she was a "ketch." I'm not sure how they had translated the rest of the spars into that sailplan, but I guess they had managed.

    YMMV, as they say.

    As a schooner, she handled as easily as a big sailing dinghy. She was amazing; I could have single-handed that boat. Her interior has been butchered (in my opinion), but there's nothing wrong with the way she sails.

    Alex

  9. #79
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Whangarei Northland New Zealand
    Posts
    194

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner.
    Robert Louis Stevenson


  10. #80
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    50,674

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Schooners have an all too often well deserved reputation for having too many strings to pull on. However, schooners were originally evolved for easy short-handed crewing and I certainly had no trouble leaning how Goblin liked to be singlehanded. Due to my incredibly poor mechanical abilities, Goblin spent her last few years with the engine in small parts in boxes. I loved living with no engine so much I pulled the prop and made a filler for that hole in the deadwood. Gave me an extra knot or two and huge bragging rights when I sailed into Baxter's for a few afternoon cocktails. One can do a lot with a divided rig and a schooner allows for more than most.

  11. #81
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Olympia, WA, USA
    Posts
    2,249

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Schooners have an all too often well deserved reputation for having too many strings to pull on.
    Too often the misguided idiots who have somehow stumbled into posession of schooners add frills and strings in the name of "character." It's tragic, on many levels.

    One can do a lot with a divided rig and a schooner allows for more than most.
    I single-handed Hearts Desire (43') a couple times, never bothering with the engine. She was pretty dreamy; that boat hadn't a single vice. Maybe a little light for serious blue water (*maybe*), but that didn't stop me from dreaming. I was offered the opportunity to buy her, when the owner I sailed under was pinned down in a divorce, but it was more than I could do. And I liked the guy, so the idea of gaining from his loss made me feel like a vulture. There's part of me that still regrets not making it happen somehow.

    Alex

  12. #82
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Mukilteo, WA
    Posts
    3,494

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    I've got a lot of love for schooners. They have the looks that's for sure. On every other point of sail, a ketch wins.

    Actually, not a very fair comparison as its a lot to do with boat length. Ketch's work so well in the cruising sweet spot of 35- 50 ft. Schooner's don't come alive until 55' or so. Sure they work at 40'- but not as well as a ketch would have.

    The big main robs air from the other sails down wind. We won't even talk about up wind. The main mast usually has to go through the cabin instead of the deck, the interior arrangement often suffers because of it. Proper staying for jib-headed mainsails is difficult, the fore has a bad ratio so must have a gaff vang.... on and on I could go. Give me a mizzen staysail and a big balloon genoa over the gollywoblers any day.

    Mostly I'm just stirring the pot. This place could use a good boat discussion now and then.

    Don't get me started on clipper bows!
    Last edited by J.Madison; 01-26-2018 at 01:39 AM.

  13. #83
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Whangarei Northland New Zealand
    Posts
    194

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Ah Come on .....Do go on .....Don't forget clipper bows...

  14. #84
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Valley of the Sun
    Posts
    112,922

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    yes, do go on please. . .

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  15. #85
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    50,674

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Goblin, my then 65 year old Alden 43, had such bagged out sails that she had a hard time to weather. In the classic race the Moffett Cup it was not odd to have a reaching start from Homes Hold (Vineyard Haven to the neuveau) to Succonnesset. We'd often get a good start and extend our lead over all but other schooners for those eight miles before drinking the full dregs of humiliation as we struggled west to weather.

    One race closed with a thirteen or so mile reach from our rounding Cross Rip a distant DFL. (Dead F{use your imagination} Last.) In a sixty plus boat fleet, we clawed our way up to eighth, passing sloops and yawls and ketches and even a few other schooners.

    It takes a very special ketch to keep even with an average schooner on any sort of reach.

    But J. Madison is right that it's all too easy to make a schooner a bit too small to show the rig's virtues. I just put it as a blur line at about 12 tons. 10 tons and over is where the ketch really shows some virtue. I've singlehanded ketches and schooners up to about 30 tons and find the differences between the actual boats to be more about the harmony of hull and rig and less about the type of rig.

  16. #86
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Olympia, WA, USA
    Posts
    2,249

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    The father of my "honorary grandmother", a man named Rodman Swift, owned the 26' Alden schooner Tyche. Family lore has it that Alden never liked the boat: he felt she was too small to be a schooner and should have been a cutter. It's hard not to see his reasoning. On the other hand, Rodman adored the boat despite any inefficiencies of rig, so...

    It's tough to argue with a happy owner.

    Alex

  17. #87
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    14,457

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    I've got a lot of love for schooners. They have the looks that's for sure. On every other point of sail, a ketch wins.

    Actually, not a very fair comparison as its a lot to do with boat length. Ketch's work so well in the cruising sweet spot of 35- 50 ft. Schooner's don't come alive until 55' or so. Sure they work at 40'- but not as well as a ketch would have.

    The big main robs air from the other sails down wind. We won't even talk about up wind. The main mast usually has to go through the cabin instead of the deck, the interior arrangement often suffers because of it. Proper staying for jib-headed mainsails is difficult, the fore has a bad ratio so must have a gaff vang.... on and on I could go. Give me a mizzen staysail and a big balloon genoa over the gollywoblers any day.

    Mostly I'm just stirring the pot. This place could use a good boat discussion now and then.

    Don't get me started on clipper bows!
    This is very true! I will say that "Wanderlure II" at thirty eight feet on deck, can make a fair turn of speed but, does not point all that well! I love that boat but I find a ketch rig, for me, to be more practical. As most of you know, I do own an H28. The problem with the schooner rig on a small boat is that the rig has too much windage to be practical as a ketch or sloop rig is more efficient for smaller hulls. Nice clipper bow here!
    Jay


  18. #88
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Shubenacadie NS
    Posts
    5,303

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  19. #89
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    14,457

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    "Fritha" was built by my friend Chris McMullen of the McMullen Wing Co. in Aukland NZ. She is a lovely boat!
    Jay

  20. #90
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    MO. USA
    Posts
    166

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    As well as anyone I like the "Magic" of the double masted gaff rigged cutter schooner
    http://www.america-scoop.com/index.p...leaux-de-magic
    and of course lets not forget "Nina and her crew" a W. starling Burgess designed staysail schooner, once described by Olin Stephens as, "the only boat he knew of that looked good from any angle" and her little sister "Ninita
    Maybe someday I will ride on Charlotte a 50' schooner, designed by Nat Benjamin and built by Gannon & Benjamin Inc.
    Last edited by John Howland; 08-07-2021 at 05:25 AM.

  21. #91
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    N62 53´52" E27 41´10"
    Posts
    338

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Who says it needs to be 40feet or more. Anna-Sofia is 24 on deck and works fine.
    Anna-Sofia.jpg

  22. #92
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Pleasant Valley NS Canada
    Posts
    24,464

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by John Howland View Post
    ... and her little sister "Ninita.
    Do you mean the Ninita built by Covey Island Boatworks, John?

    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  23. #93
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Sound Beach, NY
    Posts
    4,657

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Sweet, Timo! Looks like fun!

  24. #94
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    MO. USA
    Posts
    166

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Do you mean the Ninita built by Covey Island Boatworks, John?

    mmd.
    Yes "Ninita" (Little Girl) in Spanish was Built 2004. https://www.woodenboat.com/register-...ts/ni%C3%B1ita
    "Nina" built in 1928 was lost at sea with all hands on board 2013 4th of July.
    I see Nina sailplane is much like "Enterprise" and as innovate as "America" was in 1851. "
    Enterprise" lead keel was cast on Oct 5 1929. A Herreshoff and Burgess design winning the 1930 America Cup winner beating out Sir Thomas Liption "Shamarock V." defending the US's title. http://www.america-scoop.com/index.php/en/30-2
    I thought I once read that there was a smaller version of Nina built called Ninita also but I can't find anything on it now.

    Great website:
    http://www.america-scoop.com/index.php/en/
    Click on the links at the top of the page for tons of information, photos and paintings on the America Cup races 1851 through 1937.

  25. #95
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Bay of Islands,N.Z.
    Posts
    29,024

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Hearing the Nina name gives me chills to this day.

  26. #96
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Pleasant Valley NS Canada
    Posts
    24,464

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by John Howland View Post
    Yes "Ninita" (Little Girl) in Spanish was Built 2004. https://www.woodenboat.com/register-...ts/ni%C3%B1ita

    I thought I once read that there was a smaller version of Nina built called Ninita also but I can't find anything on it now.

    I am pretty familiar with Ninita; I did the new structural and arrangement design work on her for the owners and for Covey Island when she was built. Very interesting engine installation.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  27. #97
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    MO. USA
    Posts
    166

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    I am pretty familiar with Ninita; I did the new structural and arrangement design work on her for the owners and for Covey Island when she was built. Very interesting engine installation.
    mmd,

    I am very impressed.
    I have a 1,998,907 questions about NIŅA and NIŅITA.
    Any reference materials on NIŅA and or NIŅITA would be greatly appreciated.
    With recent events in mind NIŅA won the 1928 FASTNET race the same year it was built. Not to mention a long list of impressive wins.

    W. Starling Burgess wrote the THE ETERNAL LAUGHTER a book of poems and it was published in 1903. The last poem in the book was MY LITTLE GIRL.

    I agree with Llewellyn, Starling Burgess was
    "No Ordinary Being"
    Last edited by John Howland; 08-15-2021 at 04:53 PM.

  28. #98
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Pleasant Valley NS Canada
    Posts
    24,464

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    What would you like to know about Ninita, John? It has been quite a while since my involvement with her, but I will answer as best as I can.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  29. #99
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    MO. USA
    Posts
    166

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    mmd,
    I looked at the photos online at. https://www.inautia.com/used-boat-31...101102102.html This answered many of my questions.
    WOW! What a great design/layout and it seems bigger on the inside as the outside.

    Looking for some models for a watercolor painting of a couple of staysail schooners at either Fastnet Rock, The Needles, or some iconic landmark along the race course.
    I have also been looking for list of the contenders at the 1928 Fastnet Race also.

    Thanks for your offer to share your knowledge.
    John


    A custom furniture design and build shop for over 2 decades.
    Last edited by John Howland; 08-16-2021 at 10:02 AM.

  30. #100
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Pleasant Valley NS Canada
    Posts
    24,464

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    The profile, plan, & lines drawings in the inautia ad for the boat are my drawings. Some of the photos are mine, too, that I had given to the owners, Jenny & Paul.

    They didn't have these, though:

    skeg, port side.jpg

    trimming plank ends at stern.jpg

    ninita-stove.jpg
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  31. #101
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    175

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    That first Malabar is the one for me. I often dreamed of same. Where to get one at some sort of reasonable price, in some sort of modern material (like sheathed ply or sheathed strip plank, maybe?). That's the question.

  32. #102
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Pleasant Valley NS Canada
    Posts
    24,464

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul356 View Post
    That first Malabar is the one for me. I often dreamed of same. Where to get one at some sort of reasonable price, in some sort of modern material (like sheathed ply or sheathed strip plank, maybe?). That's the question.
    I can probably arrange to have one built for you in sheathed strip-cold-mold, if you'd like. In advantageous Canadian dollars, too. But 'reasonable price' is the wild card - what a pro builder considers reasonable is usually somewhat different from what a paying customer thinks is reasonable.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  33. #103
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    MO. USA
    Posts
    166

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    mmd,
    It is bigger on the inside than the outside. The sign of a great naval architect. Looks to me like a Art Deco style cabinet doors application. Cool
    The profile, plan, & lines drawings are some of thing I do love to look at. People don't realize how much work goes into them the first time through and then there is the revisions.

    I don't have a 3D program but I have always enjoyed my time the drafting table.

    I did a S# on Niņita from the WB Register design specs. I think that is Dam fast for a 1928 yacht design. I don't want imply that the S# tell everything about a boat attributes. It is calculated at 0 deg of healing angle, so a lot of the story is left out and (I don't mean to imply I am a Naval Architect. But I have a new found appreciation for the art, science and physics
    .)
    John


    DLR = Displacement in long tons/(Lwl/100)^3
    = (40/2240/(59/100)^3) = 173.89
    SA/D = Sail Area/(volume of displacement)^0.667 = (2420/(8000/62.4)^0.667
    ) = 20.46
    S# = 3.972*(10^(-DLR/526+(0.691*(LOG(SA/D)-1)^0.8))) =
    3.47

    ON A SCALE OF ONE TO TEN—THE “S” NUMBER (S#)
    Lead Sled: S# = 1 to 2
    Cruiser: S# = 2 to 3
    Racer-Cruiser: S# = 3 to 5
    Racing Machine: S# = 5 to 10
    Last edited by John Howland; 08-17-2021 at 07:47 PM.

  34. #104
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    MO. USA
    Posts
    166

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    I awoke last night and remembered NIŅA little sister was ROSE OF SHARON. Another W. Starling Burgess design winner of the 1930 Fastnet race.
    Much will come up in a search on ROSE OF SHARON but her restoration depends on us.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOqtfp8taAk

  35. #105
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    3,393

    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Rose of Sharon is another drool producing memory of my youth. She might have been my bucket boat, if not for Kelpie. I didn't know that Byron had passed her stewardship on to another. It's good to see her in the talented hands of Wayne "Boatswain" Ettles.

    Wayne's yard is just down the street from me. LA Harbor has gone through a lot of changes over the decades since I last visited Wayne's shop, and my bike has never been there. The infernal machine has gotten me lost several times on my quest for Mecca. The last time was when I learned that Bob Millet was having Olinka refit by Wayne. I see another attempted pilgrimage in my near future.

    In other schooner related news, does anybody know the current condition of stroke stricken Jay Greer. Although we never knowingly met face to face, we shared many common boats and friends. Our threads often degraded to swapping memories of Newport Beach's Schooner Row and its inhabitants. I really miss Jay. The forum is just not the same without him!
    Schooner sailors love to get blown offshore!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •