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Thread: Schooner discussions

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    dreamy enzedian schooner here:



    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Needs another set of runners.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    And since I'm feeling a bit disagreeable due to lack of sleep and 1400 kilometres of driving on the nurburgringwithopposingtraffic that is New Zealand roads, Most clipper bows are just nice straight bows set at a good utility angle to bisect waves, or whatever they do, with some art thrown at them. Some might call it something less charitable, frippery or some such.
    eg.


  4. #39
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    more schooner frippery. . .

    okay, okay, i'll stop now john

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions


  6. #41
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    more schooner frippery. . .

    okay, okay, i'll stop now john

    I lub that boat. AND she sailed well. Shame she left here.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Dicin' it out with Arcturus in 2008...



    Arcturus in about 2014, such a good boat.

    Last edited by John B; 02-16-2016 at 05:31 PM.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Another Malabar VII.


  9. #44
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    I lub that boat. AND she sailed well. Shame she left here.
    I sailed on Toadstool with Bill Garden once many years ago, definitely one of the neatest little cruising boats I have seen.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    I sailed on Toadstool with Bill Garden once many years ago, definitely one of the neatest little cruising boats I have seen.
    Jersey Lily ( Pauls post) was quite a caricature in a lot of ways but she sailed so well. Same thing with the bow .. yes it was drawn out into that radical clipper ( but it did shift the gammon iron/ bowsprit fulcrum out) but if you stood underneath or looked closer, it was just a normal straight bow , optimal angle to the sea that you'd find on any boat not designed to an overall length 'rule'.
    A few years ago the Farr office brought out a next big class boat about 40 ft long with a bow angled at about ..ooo 10 degrees or so because 'it was best/ efficient' to paraphrase. Not fashionable though, copped a lot of flak and died I believe. They're all plumb bow now to maximise the boat that fits in a berth or maximise the W/L for a class. Not for a nice sea motion and or busting a chop while staying reasonably dry.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    "that old mantra of 'gentlemen don't sail to windward' "
    I think it has become an excuse for to vast majority of sailboats motoring unless the conditions are near perfect. Normally the only boats I see sailing to windward are boats racing. I often see boats motoring across or even downwind despite a reasonable favorable wind. It is not that uncommon for cruisers arriving in Nanaimo to tack the ~1/2 mile up to the anchorage, not you understand, to round up and anchor under sail but to drop the sails and motor the last 100 yards or so.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    I agree , We've been sailing a lot more since we added the solar panels.
    And those extras, mine is a mizzen staysail , being a ketch , but I'm sure the gollywobblers are similar if not the same . Really easy to handle in the middle of the boat ,Set them from and haul em down into the cockpit.
    Ours is 400 ft and literally will make the difference between 3 or 4 and 6 or 7 knots in some conditions. You have to have a lot of backstay available to use them they're so powerful.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    I really did enjoy Chapelle's book and thought that someday I'd like to do a series of half hulls showing the evolution from pinkys to Grand Banks schooners.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Arcturus in about 2014, such a good boat.
    Like Tarbaby. Voyager (also 390) still had her double-gaff rig. Handled like an oversized sailing dinghy. Three of us brought her back from the Cape Verdes to the Carib; she handled so well, and had her rig so beautifully worked out that I could have single-handed her. Not with that enormous golly, though. It was a great sail, but wow, what a brute.

    I really did enjoy Chapelle's book and thought that someday I'd like to do a series of half hulls showing the evolution from pinkys to Grand Banks schooners.
    That would be awesome.

    that old mantra of 'gentlemen don't sail to windward'
    Gentlemen? Who's interested in gentlemen? I've heard gentlemen don't do their own brightwork, either. That fails me out of the category. More relevantly, I've seen an awful lot of schooners --clipper or spoon bowed-- that "can't go to windward" making easy work of the job, and doing it a lot more comfortably than some dinghy-hulled weekend racer.

    Alex

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Interesting how square riggers went downwind and schooners went upwind. Now motor ships go anywhere, schooners go downwind and sloops and racing dinghies go upwind. I agree, plan your cruise downwind as much as possible but don't be afraid to work her to weather from time to time and as such, she should be capable of it and set up to do it as easily as possible. No reason a gaff rigged schooner can't work to weather reasonably well. Not necessarily as well as an ocean racing machine from Farr but well enough to enjoy your cruise whatever the wind does.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Since the subject came up, this is one of my favourite half hull models.
    The lines are recorded by Chappelle.

    Half hull of the Helen B. Thomas, Thomas A. McManus' first successful knockabout fishing schooner. McManus carved the model in 1901 and hung it in the front window of his Boston office waiting for someone to commission her. While the resulting schooner is not considered extreme as far as fishing schooners go and is in fact a reaction to the dangerous evolution that banks schooners had taken, I find the model 'extreme' in its elegant form and the half hull looks positively rakish. . .

    This model now resides in the Smithsonian.



    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Cruising offshore it totally makes sense to plan your voyage to be reaching or running as much as possible. All the normal routes are worked out with that in mind and recorded in the Ocean Passages for the World or similar publications, and the NOAA Pilot Charts.
    Near coastal cruising is a little different. Few near coastal areas have reliable enough predominant wind directions, to be able to plan to always be running or reaching. Once the weather reaches the coast, either from offshore, or from overland, the pattern changes. Most coast lines have predominantly along shore winds. They do switch around, and the presence of an island archipelago confuses things even more.
    Here in BC summer winds are mostly either NW'ly or SE'ly. The NW can blow strongly and steadily for days, generally force 3< >5 sunny, clear. A SE'ly wind can also blow for days, but is less consistent, and may be light and variable or stronger. A SE may include rain or showers, is generally cloudy or partially cloudy.
    I am fortunate that I can choose to head SE and poke around the Gulf Islands for a week or whatever my time frame is, or I can head NW and enjoy destinations in that general direction. The point is I cannot plan with any expectation of success of getting reaching and running winds throughout my cruise. I will almost certainly have to work to windward for a day or two to make whatever circuit I choose. I can of course motor, but I mainly choose not to. Some windward ability is really necessary.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Agreed. And though a gaff rigged schooner may not point as high as a Flying Dutchman class dinghy, it can go to windward reasonably well if she was properly designed, set up and sailed.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Cruising offshore it totally makes sense to plan your voyage to be reaching or running as much as possible. All the normal routes are worked out with that in mind and recorded in the Ocean Passages for the World or similar publications, and the NOAA Pilot Charts.
    But as many of us know, running schooners dead down wind can be taxing, with the constant vigilance needed to avoid a jibe. The bigger the schooner, the more tacing that vigilance is needed --especially if you've got runners set up. Even a preventer/boom tackle is no assurance of safety: mid-Atlantic, Voyager jibed with a preventer on her main and was held down by it. A sharp knife mitigated the situation, but it was a little exciting for a moment or three. Likewise, while we were running with main, fore, and a big jib, the fore was still prone to jibing when the wind lightened enough to make the partial blanketting by the main more deleterious. On the big cargo schooners, those annoyances would have meant broken gear.

    All that was to preface that many cruising schooners, even small ones, were once designed with a square yard on the foremast: long passages offshore. It makes a lot of sense, especially when you can lower away and stow the yard once you finish out the passage. (And part of the reason barquentines, with their square-rigged foremast, were becoming popular at the end of the so-called age of sail, just before steamships ran most working sail off the sea, starting with the smaller vessels.)

    But it's the versatility of the schooner rig that makes such an adaptive sail plan practical. Upwind or downwind, they're about perfect, as I see it.

    Alex

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    My rule was to gybe between broad reaches unless straight down wind was the course constrained by hazards or in a race and the wind was strong enough to hold hull speed on a run. Anything short of that much wind and a broad reach is always enough faster to more than cancel the extra distance. And any one who can't gybe their boat in any wind either has too much sail up (and it's all too easy to carry on a bit too long when off the wind) or is not a fully capable sailor.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Gybing a ketch is ridiculously simple, you bear away until the main goes goofy , blanketed, kick it over with the helm or give it a hand. Then gybe the mizzen, which is pretty easy being a small sail. I imagine its the same although a schooner still has a big main to gybe.
    But the same applies for a safe course as a schooner, you broad reach where you can , its fast and more fun anyway. Sometimes we run ddw when we must ,with the main and mizzen preventered out goosewinged, leave the jib away. That works ok and probably would be a go to option for the trades. Either that or main and jib goosewinged a la sloop.
    Lots of options with a split rig.
    ha, we had a situation develop a month ago sailing along Bream head, a nice broad reach in 20 knots on stbd but the wind kept veering on us and turned us nearly 90 degrees to prevent a gybe. Then it backed , then it went 30 and then it dropped and then it veered and went close to 40. All within a few minutes. Typical williwaws, I'd thought we were out far enough.
    We chicken gybed in a lull and went out to sea for some solid air and direction, I luffed her through the 35 or 40 whole sail, all very nice and under control, a 45 ft dinghy. Worth a few giggles and a few wry looks from my wife.'Do you think we should perhaps drop some sail now?'
    Gotta keep your crew happy eh.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    I'll tack downwind in any sort of proper breeze. Safer, easier and usually faster. In light winds running free, wing and wing is easy and worry free....oh and I can set her up to sail hands free, so I can study a good book and nurse a beverage while I am at it....multi-tasking.....

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    One of the most handsome small schooners I have ever seen was a Herreshoff Neria as a schooner, rather than a ketch. I'll look for a photo.
    The big schooners had numerous sails to keep them a manageable size. Smaller boats with a divided sailplan should not have the sails cut too small.
    I sail a Herreshoff Meadowlark. She is of course a ketch because the forward mast is noticeably taller than the after mast. That said the main and mizzen are equal size. The main is nearly always reefed or dropped first, so we are sailing more as a schooner. It is a very handy rig. I sail on and off the mooring, and have never used more than 8 gallons of gas (outboard) in a year!!
    Same here, regarding sail plan. I reef the main first on Drake when reducing sail, and then we appear to be a schooner. The reef in the main also moves it's effort forward, which opens the gap between it and the mizzen, and makes the mizzen undisturbed by the airfoil of the main -- it bites into clean air.

    But for perfection in small schooners, look at the Tancook Schooners. NOT the Tancook Whalers, which are a more primitive design. But those by-hand-and-by-eye geniuses on Tancook Island evolved small schooners (in the 1920s-30s) to a wonderful form.

    Dave

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Next time you are in Gloucester (maybe for annual Schooner Festival during Labor Day weekend) stop by Maritime Gloucester, right on the harbor, and take a look at the series of half models showing the development of the Gloucester fishing schooners from the pinky - all the same scale. These were commissioned by Q and Tattie Bent of Essex and made by my husband, Brad Story.

    It would be great if someone did the legendary schooner yachts also and the exhibit could show the differences between the work boats and yachts.

  25. #60
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    Exclamation Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Of potentially obtainable schooners Alden's Malabar II leads the list of cruising designs for me.

    Im looking for one!!!!!!! I just came across an aluminium one, somewhere in Quebec, built 1975 (see http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1975.../#.WmB4W0tG0fM)
    any one can help me evaluate the aluminium offer? (of course I would prefer a woooden one...!)

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Says sale pending. If that falls through find out why if you can.

    Sounds like a good deal. Potentially.

    What little I know of aluminum is that if it's built right, it's really great. This boat's old enough that if she's not right, it should be obvious. If you know enough to look over all the systems, rigging, sails and such, you can probably spot enough that you'll be able to make a rational offer subject to survey.

    If you get her and start sailing, I'd be prepared to get some help making the weights and trim right. With aluminum masts and a "full length lead keel" (apparently poured into the aluminum hull) both the longitudinal momentum and the metacentric might be a bit different from a wood Malebar II. Might take some sailing to figure out.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Nice looking boat Punzo, hope it works out for you. Electrolysis is the bane of aluminum hulls, be through in that regard.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    do you or anyone knows of a Malabar II for sale?

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    many thanks, the problem is also that the boat is in Quebec, and I am the other side of the pond
    i would come over, but to see a few boats, not just one
    no further info from sellers, maybe sale pending
    do you know of any malabar II or similar for sale?

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    I have a set of plans for Alden's "Wanderlure II" 38' on deck. Only two boats, were ever built to this design, "WanderlureII" and "Medley". My favorite schooner boat!
    Jay

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    I'll contribute a revival of this thread about a Bill Rothrock schooner. Certainly not to everyone's taste with the clipper bow and all!

    15s585c.jpg

    29yoaj9.jpg

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-this-schooner
    “Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs."

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    And for sale...

    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1926...s#.WmScbuYo-fA

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    I have a set of plans for Alden's "Wanderlure II" 38' on deck. Only two boats, were ever built to this design, "WanderlureII" and "Medley". My favorite schooner boat!
    Jay
    Heute ist so ein schöne Tag...

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    My old Goblin was a slight variant on the Alden 43. The first owner had an iron foundry next door to the boatyard he wanted to build her and he wanted a full length iron keel for the centerboard to run through. The Goody&Stevens 43's had a lead slug hung on the keel and the board running through all that. By the 1980s, when I got Goblin, all the G&S still afloat had the boards removed and the keel extended because the structure was made weak by age. Goblin's remained tight. The longer weight enabled Alden to put a little hollow in the bow.

    If you're going to have a centerboard on a boat in this size range, the iron keel is a wonderful idea.

    Not such a good idea was that Goblin was changed from her original Marconi main and gaff fore to a staysail rig. I have become convinced that unless you have at least three fisherman sails and crew to play with them, the gaff fore is a better call. Without a fisherman up, there's not really enough horsepower in the rig unless the wind is up to at least a Strong Breeze (Force 6, 22-27 knots). Other advantages are that the gaff fore is "self-tacking", easily reefed, and sets better off the wind. For a schooner up to fifteen or twenty tons, the gaff fore is a better choice for any cruiser and most racers.

    Goblin had a clubbed forestaysail and a jib out on the bowsprit. It was a very powerful combination. In Strong Gale (Force 9, 41-47 knots) when carrying the jib and double reefed main was getting on towards work, Goblin sailed well on her mainstaysail and forestaysail. But, on the other hand, I used to admire Malebar II being singlehanded tacking in that tight mooring behind the Homes Hole breakwater, that big clubbed jib out on the bowsprit as easlity self-tacking as the main and fore.

    Since a jib on a bowsprit is made much safer with roller furling, my own ideal rig for a schooner in this range might have a jib with luff pads and patches at the reefed tack and peak and a detachable headstay for a forestaysail, giving choice depending on wind and whim for one or two headsails.

    Goblin came with a genny that was in poor shape so no question the smaller jib with the forestaysail was better to weather. Surprising to me, that combo was also better off the wind. More luff generally beats simple sail area and the big genny was hard to set well on a broad reach. And it was really pointless dead downwind, which is not a useful point of sail in schooners anyway.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Z. View Post
    Nice to see the photos of Wanderlure II Don! Viellen Dank fur die Fotos! Sind sehr Nett!

    In truth I was happy to see my carving work is still on the transom and the scrolls I did on the stem are still there. And, my old friend is still smiling! The price is certainly right! That is not even close to how much money Jerry Hampton spent on her! Plus the next owner went even further. She is, truly, now a new old boat!! The added glass windows on the locker doors is really a nice touch!
    Jay

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Schooner discussions

    Wanderlure II is most lovely. And many kites to keep a strong crew amused is a way to go.

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