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Thread: A Beg-Meil for Boston

  1. #36
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    Yes, what Edward describes is exactly the arrangment for the foam filled flotation chambers of the Ilur. Limber holes in the bulkheads, and water washes down and out. Works well. I did encapsulate the hull with 3 coats of neat epoxy before priming (2 coats), then 1 coat of 50:50 primer/paint, then 2 coats of paint. The ply is well protected from water.

    Ed, John,

    Thanks for the replies. The Beg-Meil plans don't show any limber holes in the portions of the bulkheads that form the flotation chamber. I will investigate adding some.

    John - I have a been applying neat epoxy to the parts before assembly and plan to add a 3rd coat prior to painting. I have not heard of 50:50 primer/paint. What is the benefit of this mixture?

    Thanks,

  2. #37
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    I'm not sure there is any particular benefit to that approach; I was using a high build primer, and sanding off much of the first coat, and some of the second. The mix of primer and paint was just the way that made sense to me as I worked toward a finish coat. Seemed to work fine, and I needed significantly less sanding with each successive coat. I suspect it would have worked just as well to do a third primer coat and then two coats of the paint instead of what I did.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by DeanP View Post
    Ed, John,

    Thanks for the replies. The Beg-Meil plans don't show any limber holes in the portions of the bulkheads that form the flotation chamber. I will investigate adding some.

    John - I have a been applying neat epoxy to the parts before assembly and plan to add a 3rd coat prior to painting. I have not heard of 50:50 primer/paint. What is the benefit of this mixture?

    Thanks,

    I too built mine with limber holes.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Hi Dean, I am about to work on the centreboard once my broken elbow heals up, I really like the idea of the bronze bushing that you used and would like to do the same on my build. I am wondering if you fabricated this yourself or what you may have used to make the bushing? I have no experience really with bronze but it looks like a few imposed weeks where I can certainly do some learning, thanks Bill

  5. #40
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by billsan View Post
    Hi Dean, I am about to work on the centreboard once my broken elbow heals up, I really like the idea of the bronze bushing that you used and would like to do the same on my build. I am wondering if you fabricated this yourself or what you may have used to make the bushing? I have no experience really with bronze but it looks like a few imposed weeks where I can certainly do some learning, thanks Bill
    Hi Bill,

    I built the bushing in Bronze (thick walled) tubing purchased from McMaster-Carr (https://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/122/3812/=15ft0wt). My brother-in-law did the lathe work (I don't have one) and I did the mill work. It was pretty easy to fabricate (assuming you have a mill and a lathe). I would be happy to send you a PDF of the drawing I made in order to build the part.


    Good luck,

    Dean

  6. #41
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Dean,

    Thanks once again. I do have access to those pieces of kit so if you were willing to share the PDF it would be greatly appreciated. Looking forward to your next progress pics, I am down until Feb so I will have to follow the progress of others until then.

    Thanks again,

    Bill

  7. #42
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by DeanP View Post
    A question about flotation compartments...




    The plans don't explicitly state whether or not the chamber should be built to be watertight. Finally, my question: Should I build the chambers to be watertight, or would I be better off to add limber holes so moisture/water has some chance to drain out? With the chambers being filled with foam, I would not loose significant buoyancy were water to enter the space through the drain holes (in the event of a capsize).

    This question may be as philosophical as practical, but I am a bit concerned that if I attempt (and fail) to make the space watertight, I may be inviting rot in a space I will never inspect. On the other hand, if I add limber holes, I have guaranteed that some amount of water will enter the space...

    When I started the build, I had been planning to use pour-in-place expanding foam, but I was convinced otherwise by the many thoughtful posts I found on the forum. I would like to tap the collective wisdom of the group on this issue as well.

    Thanks in advance.
    Nice project.

    I think your intuition regarding enclosed spaces is right on and I agree with what's already been said about that.

    I have foam-filled chambers as well under the thwarts of my boat. There is a cove cut underneath the outboard edge of the thwart where it meets the riser as well as limber holes along the keel port and starboard. Most of the damage to the paint comes from sand and bits of shell that invariably come aboard and slosh around. Very easy to clean - just fill the boat with three or four inches of water and wipe with a soft cloth, drain it out, let it dry, use a scraper to lift any weak paint, vacuum it out, touch up or re-paint. Feels good to be able to inspect every square inch of your boat and keep it dry and clean.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    I have mounted the transom and bonded the stern post between it and the C1 frame. The white covering on the transom is vinyl tape - my attempt to protect the surface in case I decide to varnish this surface.



    I installed the bench and floorboard supports on the frame. Assuming I located them correctly, this should save me some time once the hull is flipped right side up.


  9. #44
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    I've installed the longitudinal bulkheads and have started to add the blocking to strengthen the joints.




    Based on the recommendations of others on this blog, I am trying to avoid metal fasteners whenever possible. Here, I have used plastic nails to hold parts in position while the epoxy cures.



    Here, I've used 1/8" fiberglass dowels to pin the cleats to the centerboard well.



    Someone had suggested the use of fiberglass driveway markers as an inexpensive source of pin stock. I needed some smaller material and found these after a brief web search. These pieces came from Goodwinds LLC (www.goodwinds.com). They seem to work so well, I plan to buy a range of diameters and keep them ready for various alignment/pinning tasks.



    More to follow...

  10. #45
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    I postponed planing the stem as long as I could, but found it was not as difficult as I had feared.



    I didn't bevel the upper most section so I can fit the shear clamps in situ. I expect a combination of rasps and chisels will be required to complete the bevel in this area.



    The stem is now glued to the forward bulkhead.


  11. #46
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Very soon I will be ready to fit/install the (inner) keel, install the shear clamps, and bevel the frames to accept (9mm) the strip planking. It is not clear to me whether there is a preferred order of operations for these 3 tasks... Any recommendations or guidance would be most appreciated.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Looking really good, Dean. As always, so tidy and precise! I can't help too much with the strip-planking, although getting the keelson in first seems like it couldn't hurt.

    Looks like you might be able to splash late this summer? Anyhow, keep up the good work!

    Mike
    "near it, a small whale-boat, painted red and blue, the delight of the king's old age."

  13. #48
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by DeanP View Post
    I glued up the first piece! For the laminate (flat) glue-ups, I have elected to use resorcinol glue. I vacuum bagged this part and build a makeshift oven to get a reasonable cure temp.





    A framework of cleat material and a small electric heater waiting for a blanket to complete the oven. With the blanket in place, I was able to maintain a 90F cure cycle.

    If all goes well, I will bond all the plywood lamination with Resorcinol and use epoxy for everything else.
    I realize that I'm way late with this comment, but perhaps it will save another some time…… Parts can be easily kept warm while vacuum bagging by the use of electric blankets. I have three twin sized blankets that I use. These will cover my full sheet press easily. I think they are quite safe to use from a fire aspect. I use a timer to shut them off after what I calculate will be the cure time.

    Great looking build here. I will be following from now on.

    Jeff

  14. #49
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    I realize that I'm way late with this comment, but perhaps it will save another some time…… Parts can be easily kept warm while vacuum bagging by the use of electric blankets. I have three twin sized blankets that I use. These will cover my full sheet press easily. I think they are quite safe to use from a fire aspect. I use a timer to shut them off after what I calculate will be the cure time.

    Great looking build here. I will be following from now on.

    Jeff
    Hi Jeff,

    Thanks for the idea. I had not considered using an electric blanket. I plan to vacuum bag the rudder parts and may try an electric blanket. I would expect it would provide much more uniform heat.

    Regards,

  15. #50
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon1 View Post
    Looking really good, Dean. As always, so tidy and precise! I can't help too much with the strip-planking, although getting the keelson in first seems like it couldn't hurt.

    Looks like you might be able to splash late this summer? Anyhow, keep up the good work!

    Mike
    I'll second that, she looks great....really nice work.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeanP View Post
    Very soon I will be ready to fit/install the (inner) keel, install the shear clamps, and bevel the frames to accept (9mm) the strip planking. It is not clear to me whether there is a preferred order of operations for these 3 tasks... Any recommendations or guidance would be most appreciated.
    Disclaimer up-front, with the lapstrake version as I am building the process is different, so I speak not from experience. And of course the surest bet is a quick email to Vivier. But from what I can discern from this build blog, https://www.histoiremaritimebretagnenord.fr/kernoc-h/ , it looks like one approach for the strip plank hull is to do keel first, get everything fair, install sheerstrake, apply strips, then flip hull and install the shear clamps. Take a look, he has plenty of pictures to describe how he tackled it.

    Good luck!

    Jason

  16. #51
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonD View Post
    I'll second that, she looks great....really nice work.



    Disclaimer up-front, with the lapstrake version as I am building the process is different, so I speak not from experience. And of course the surest bet is a quick email to Vivier. But from what I can discern from this build blog, https://www.histoiremaritimebretagnenord.fr/kernoc-h/ , it looks like one approach for the strip plank hull is to do keel first, get everything fair, install sheerstrake, apply strips, then flip hull and install the shear clamps. Take a look, he has plenty of pictures to describe how he tackled it.

    Good luck!

    Jason
    Hi Jason,

    Thanks for the link. It's very helpful. It's time to brush up on my French!

    Regards,

  17. #52
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    I have installed the longerons for the floor boards. Again, I used fiberglass pins instead of screws to augment the epoxy.





    After the epoxy has cured, I cut the pin and sand it flush:


  18. #53
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    I worked up my nerve and cut the slot in the keelson for the centerboard well. I rough cut it with a jigsaw and cleaned it up with the route and a flush cut bit.





    It fit pretty well over the centerboard well.



    Here's where I need some help from the pros:

    Although the keelson thickness matches the plans and the stem was CNC cut, the keelson and stem have a mismatch of about 1/8". Should I plane the stem to match the keelson, or shim under the keelson to bring it up to match the stem?



    As always, thanks for your inputs.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Just asking, if you glue those last two bits together using epoxy thickened with colloidal silica, will that fill the gap comfortably or not comfortably?

  20. #55
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by DeanP View Post

    Although the keelson thickness matches the plans and the stem was CNC cut, the keelson and stem have a mismatch of about 1/8". Should I plane the stem to match the keelson, or shim under the keelson to bring it up to match the stem?

    .
    I don't think it matters. Epoxy would fill the gap just fine but I would be more inclined to plane the stem to profile. If I were putting together the CNC drawings, I'd likely make the stem a little proud just for the purpose of final fitting/shaping to profile. I bet the surface that sits on top of the keelson is the controlling dimension and the outer face of the stem might be purposely a little proud.

    Coming along nicely - looking good.

    Travis.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuri View Post
    I don't think it matters. Epoxy would fill the gap just fine but I would be more inclined to plane the stem to profile. If I were putting together the CNC drawings, I'd likely make the stem a little proud just for the purpose of final fitting/shaping to profile. I bet the surface that sits on top of the keelson is the controlling dimension and the outer face of the stem might be purposely a little proud.

    Coming along nicely - looking good.

    Travis.
    Hi Travis,

    Thanks for the input. That's a good point about the likely location of the controlling surface. I think I will pose that question to the designer. I would prefer to mate the keelson directly to the stem (in lieu of shimming) as this provides the best fit to the adjacent frame (aft of the stem).

    Regards,

    Dean

  22. #57
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Dean


    I've learned that Vaitses' #1 rule for lofting is often (always?) true for building too: a fair curve supersedes any measurement. You definitely don't want to clamp down a plank to a keelson that torments it into a divot or an unfair curve / flat line. But I think that two factors have you covered: the thickened epoxy will lift the keelson a little (1/32", made even 1/16"?), and also remember that you will plane off far more than that to get the flat surface for the false keel. So, I guess I am saying, I'd do whatever makes the plank lay sweet, knowing that you'll likely plane it off for a flat gluing surface later anyway. If I recall correctly, I was perched atop my boat with a #7 plane for quite some time and even broke out the power planer as I approached the false keel glue up. That 1/8" will end up laying on the floor of your shop!

    Your boat is really looking great, keep up the nice work - it is fun to watch your progress.


    Jason
    [IMG]image by Jason D, on Flickr[/IMG]

    [IMG]image by Jason D, on Flickr[/IMG]

    [IMG]image by Jason D, on Flickr[/IMG]
    Last edited by JasonD; 01-20-2017 at 11:04 AM.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    oh, and by the way....definitely dry fit the garboard plank (all of them for that matter) and figure out your clamping strategy in advance of mixing any glue. Sorry if that is obvious, but the pictures made me recall that the clamping approach had to be pretty creative for these planks - in fact the first three are tough to clamp. Trying to sort that out with kicking epoxy would be a nightmare.

    Also, if any of them feel like they may snap during the coaxing into the curve, a hot-towel spa treatment for the plank works wonders to relax it into the curve. One of my pieces I even had to hot-towel it, bend it partially and let it sit a day or so, then clamp it down the rest of the way to avoid a snap. They can snap if rushed (DAMHIKT).

    Jason

  24. #59
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    A recent issue of Wooden Boat magazine had an article about building your own "Jump Stick". I had never even heard of such a thing, but suddenly need one to help bevel the notch in the transom so the keelson would lay down properly.



    A scrap of wood and a few minutes in the shop and it was ready to go.



    Initially, I lacked faith that it would put line in the right location, but it was right on the money.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston





    The other frames were quite easy to bevel (at least for the keelson):




  26. #61
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    I have the keelson partially clamped in place, but the degree of curvature near the transom is making me nervous. I think I will try Jason's suggestion of using hot towels.



    I'm still about 1/4" away from the final location:


  27. #62
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by DeanP View Post
    I have the keelson partially clamped in place, but the degree of curvature near the transom is making me nervous. I think I will try Jason's suggestion of using hot towels.



    I'm still about 1/4" away from the final location:

    Good luck with the bend! Looking good.....

  28. #63
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    My first try at steaming:

    I bought this underwhelming steamer from Amazon, but it does seem to work ok.



    I steam the last 6 feet or so of the keelson for 1-1/2 to 2 hours. I used a simple poly sleeve as I saw on a YouTube video. The steam escaped from either end of the tube while the condensate drained from a small hole placed at the low spot.



    I probably lost a lot of heat due to the lack of any insulation around the bag, but the ease of set up was compelling. With a bunch of clamps and some help from my wife, it went into place - not easily, but without cracking!



    (This photo was not rotated until I pasted it here - what's up with that?)

    I was able to bend the keelson fully within the notch of the transom. I neglected to consider, however, the swelling of the wood and scraped some off as I forced it into the notch.


  29. #64
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Now for a couple of questions:

    How long should I let this board dry before I remove the clamps and before I epoxy it into place?

    Dare I rely on epoxy alone or should I try to add a few screws? (I hate to add any fasteners as the keelson will be planed to within an inch of its life, but I am concerned I am expecting to much of the epoxy...)

    Where can I buy poly tubing for steaming? I looked on line, and can find many sizes from many sources, but all is sold in rolls of at least 1000 feet. I would like to buy 100 feet or so.

    As always, thanks for the great input.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by DeanP View Post

    Dare I rely on epoxy alone or should I try to add a few screws? (I hate to add any fasteners as the keelson will be planed to within an inch of its life, but I am concerned I am expecting to much of the epoxy...)
    Dean,

    I would advise against screws at this point for two reasons: first, as you say, you will need to plane a bevel onto the piece; if the screw isn't placed just right, it could mean trouble. And assuming your plans are the same as mine, you should be adding screws once the false keel and skeg are added, and at least a few of them are driven through the keelson from inside the hull. So, you'll have the screws backing up the epoxy....just not yet. Vivier's plans show the location of the screws on one of the sheets.

    Nice work on getting this piece in place, it is looking good.

    Jason

  31. #66
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Fitting of the first clamp continues. On the Beg-Meil the clamps at the shear are made from 2 layers of 15mm x 30mm stock. For better or worse, I have elected to install them one at a time. It's been fussy work since each notch in the frames must be beveled to match to local curvature of the shear. I made small "doublers" to help me see that the notch dept would put the assembled clamp in the correct location with the (yet unbeveled) frames.



    Starboard clamp looking aft. Picture taken from floor.







    Forward most bulkhead. The bevel is quite dramatic on this one!


    Here's where I could use some help: As I epoxy on the 1st layer, I will clamp the clamp to the frame. Should I also install a (silicon bronze) screw through the clamp and into the plywood? In some cases, There is already a piece of 25mm x 25mm fir attached to the frame to which I could install a fastener (as shown above.)

    Once I finish cutting the compound angles where clamp meets the stem and the transom, I will post more pictures. Thanks for all the help and encouragement.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Dean - looking great. I would definitely not put a screw into end grain of plywood as that hold is shaky at best. If I recall I only added screws at 3 spots: bow, aft and one more at a timber frame. The epoxy held mine just fine, and I too installed one at a time (can't imagine any other way but who knows). I did use a few more screws to hold the two layers of clamp together once glued up. Remember that you'll plane off a quarter inch or so at top so make sure screws are centered to allow for that.

    Keep up the great work, she is coming along nicely.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    I did put screws into the frames when I was building up the gunwales on my Ilur, but drilled a hole with a forstner bit and filled with epoxy, then re-drilled to placed a countersunk and plugged screw through the inwale.

    [/URL]

  34. #69
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonD View Post
    .....Remember that you'll plane off a quarter inch or so at top so make sure screws are centered to allow for that......
    I mis-spoke, the planing off is for the inner coaming support clamp, not here. Never mind. I also double checked my screw placement: it was four - bow end, transom end on timber, and two timber frames along the way. With that and epoxy the clamps have successfully lifted the entire boat, seems plenty strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    I did put screws into the frames when I was building up the gunwales on my Ilur, but drilled a hole with a forstner bit and filled with epoxy, then re-drilled to placed a countersunk and plugged screw through the inwale.
    Very ingenious, John....I think that would be about the only way to get decent purchase on the end grain of plywood. I will file that away for future use. Thanks!

  35. #70
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    Default Re: A Beg-Meil for Boston

    Dean,
    Your build looks very nice; good job. I bought poly tube on EBAY. Mine is three inches wide on the flat. Let me know if this would be helpful. Steam bag is the way to go; it beats a steaming box in so many ways. I left 1 x 1/2 cedar strips clamped on the boat for a day (without the bag) before epoxying.

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