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Thread: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

  1. #1
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    Default Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Hi Everyone.
    If you've been following along with http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?197007-Universal-Fisherman-One-Lunger-Project,
    we left off with Sally's return from the Lunenburg Foundry, our musings about halting the build of the Roberts engine in favor of an Atlantic Engine, and the start of our winter break. Well, break is over and spring semester began last week. The big news is that thanks to the awesome enthusiasm, generosity, and technical guidance & support of Lunenburg Industrial Foundry & Engineering (specifically help from Peter Kinley, John Kinley and Laura Allen) we are now officially redirecting our efforts and fabricating a new Atlantic make and break engine.
    Because of the scale of this project, Sam and Sally (the original students working on the Universal Fisherman) have divvied this work among our other six senior apprentices. All told, we now have a team of eight students at MIT, with input from the Lunenburg Foundry.
    The team started reviewing the drawings, and are developing their strategy for patternmaking and machining. Like before, will be using a combination of our shop and foundry and a few key outside suppliers for the larger pours.
    The students will be posting their progress here, and will have questions for y'all. If any of you have parts or pictures of the J engine (4hp, 4 1/2" bore), please post or PM me. We might need additional information to augment the engineering drawings.
    Thanks!

    P.S. The Universal Fisherman rebuild will continue, albeit at a slower pace because of this Atlantic project.
    Last edited by DoctorB; 03-05-2016 at 09:00 PM. Reason: gotta learn to spell Lunenburg...

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    What a great project!

    There is probably a handful of folks out there that would like you to cast more than one of some pieces. Spares must be scarce these days!

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Excellent! I'm really looking forward to following your work here.

    (hmm, ..... I've certainly been meaning to get some gasket paper in the mail.)

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    I was looking for that other thread recently and couldn't find it. I subscribed to both it and this one now and look forward to following along.

    Not sure if this is the exact model but I always heard this type of engine called hit and miss. Love the sound of these engines just barely running like at around the 1 minute mark in the video.



    Sea Dreams A.K.A. Brian

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Brian - The Atlantic (and 'typical' small early marine engines) were "make and Break" engines. A "Hit and Miss" engine is typically a land-based utility engine (farm, sawmill, pump use, etc).

    A Hit and Miss engine is a four cycle engine that typically has some sort of flyweight governor with a trip lever in the linkage for the exhaust valve. When the engine speed reaches the governor speed the linkage to the exhaust valve is de-activated and the engine simply free spins with the exhaust valve staying closed all the time. When the engine slows down, the governor allows the exhaust valve to function and the engine fires until it gets back up to speed. (There is no intake valve train, it is simply the intake vacuum that sucks the intake valve open when needed.

    A Make and Break engine is typically a two cycle engine that has no 'spark plug' as we know it. There are a set of sort of heavy duty breaker points mounted on a plate that actually bolts in an opening in the side of the cylinder; so the 'points' are actually inside the combustion chamber. There is then a trip lever that runs off an eccentric on the crank shaft that trips the breaker points in a 'make and break' fashion within the combustion chamber.

    This is an 'ignitor'. The points on the right side (right view) are actually within the combustion chamber.



    Here is the ingitor on my 5 hp Acadia


    And an ignitor for an Acadia (instead of a spark plug).
    Last edited by nedL; 02-10-2016 at 04:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT


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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    Excellent! I'm really looking forward to following your work here.

    (hmm, ..... I've certainly been meaning to get some gasket paper in the mail.)
    funny thing some students were making some gaskets yesterday for a small side project.

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Hello Wooden Boat Forum!

    Sally and I are trying our best to decipher drawings of the exhaust manifold and the cylinder or our Atlantic Engine. Unfortunately we don't have complete drawings for the cylinder, if you happen to have any information on that, please sent it our way! (engine J)

    As for the manifold, we are trying to understand the inner passages. Below is a picture of the drawing we have for it.

    Things that we already know about the manifold - gas/air mixture comes in through the 1" pipe thread on the bottom from the carburetor. But where does it go from there and where does the exhaust come out? Through the center passage? Also, does anyone know what the plug is for on the top left corner?

    Sally and I were thinking that maybe the bottom and top passages (in the side view) are actually connected because the manifold is more like a revolved part, but that doesn't make too much sense to use because the bottom part of the passage should always be covered by the piston (we think, according to the full assembly drawing of the engine), and so the gas mixture would never be able to get below it and into the base cavity.

    We were thinking the manifold would serve as an intake, exhaust, and also serve as a passage to bring the gas from the base to above the piston, like the passage on the left of the engine above. It's possible that our cylinder can have a passage like this, we just don't have detailed drawings of it. Also, since we have limited views of the manifold, it's hard to tell if its a revolved part inside or not.

    Any information is helpful! We are pretty confused.


    Best,
    SamOneLungah

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Here is a picture.



    Yep, bottom appears to be the carb (1" NPT). and the center is the exhaust. Any chance the top, with the 3/8 NPT & plug connects to the water jacket in the block and is for cooling?

    Edit to add...........

    and another one.



    I am thinking water jacket for the top hole. The bottom hole for the carb must get through to the crank case somehow. Do you have drawings for the cylinder and piston?

    Edit again.....

    And I think this pic. answers the question. Definitely two ports to the cylinder.

    Last edited by nedL; 02-15-2016 at 12:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorB View Post
    Hi Everyone.
    If you've been following along with http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?197007-Universal-Fisherman-One-Lunger-Project,
    we left off with Sally's return from the Lunenberg Foundry, our musings about halting the build of the Roberts engine in favor of an Atlantic Engine, and the start of our winter break. Well, break is over and spring semester began last week. The big news is that thanks to the awesome enthusiasm, generosity, and technical guidance & support of Lunenberg Industrial Foundry & Engineering (specifically help from Peter Kinley, John Kinley and Laura Allen) we are now officially redirecting our efforts and fabricating a new Atlantic make and break engine.
    Because of the scale of this project, Sam and Sally (the original students working on the Universal Fisherman) have divvied this work among our other six senior apprentices. All told, we now have a team of eight students at MIT, with input from the Lunenburg Foundry.
    The team started reviewing the drawings, and are developing their strategy for patternmaking and machining. Like before, will be using a combination of our shop and foundry and a few key outside suppliers for the larger pours.
    The students will be posting their progress here, and will have questions for y'all. If any of you have parts or pictures of the J engine (4hp, 4 1/2" bore), please post or PM me. We might need additional information to augment the engineering drawings.
    Thanks!

    P.S. The Universal Fisherman rebuild will continue, albeit at a slower pace because of this Atlantic project.
    Looking forward to this thread. And when you get to making the breaker points, make a few extra for the rest of us! I have not been able to source any spares, and I understand these need replacing fairly frequently. I'd be happy to buy a few - I have an Atlantic 5 hp that's going into a 23 foot dory I'm in the process of fixing up.

    Cheers,

    Jamie

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Hey All!

    My name is Brady and I am one of the MIT students working on fabricating the engine. I am delving into the cooling system and am attempting to make the piping as authentic as possible. Some of the parts seem fairly generic (pipe nipples and elbows) but there are two parts that are a bit more unique. The check valves and stop cock have a unique shape in the larger assembly engineering drawings, but on the bill of materials they said that they are "COM'L" which I assume means commercial and were purchased from another company. I don't have specific engineering drawings of the parts, and I know I could buy generic valves online, but in order to make this build more authentic I was wondering if anyone out there knew where I could find these parts, or had drawings of them so I could make them myself.

    Thanks!
    Brady

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    Cool Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Hey all,

    Thought you all might enjoy a picture of a sand casting mold I have been working on. I 3D printed a pattern for the water pump body, as well as for an insert for the mold. I think the tool for uploading photos is broken (at least from my computer) but here is a link to the photo. We will try to keep posting interesting photos to the forum (and all other photos to this dropbox folder).

    Going to attempt to cast our first part next week, wish is luck!
    Brady

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT


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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Quote Originally Posted by bekight View Post
    Hey all,

    Thought you all might enjoy a picture of a sand casting mold I have been working on. I 3D printed a pattern for the water pump body, as well as for an insert for the mold. I think the tool for uploading photos is broken (at least from my computer) but here is a link to the photo. We will try to keep posting interesting photos to the forum (and all other photos to this dropbox folder).

    Going to attempt to cast our first part next week, wish is luck!
    Brady

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Brady,
    I'm posting your pic...
    Nice model and core mold...see you in lab.

    ...thanks boat fan, I see we did this at the same time!

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Hey 3D printing enthusiasts,

    I have been working on some strategies on smoothing the 3D printed molds that I mentioned above. So far I have used an Epoxy/dust mixture which I applied, let dry, and sanded off, as well as a surface filler and bondo (which I think was old and dry, so it didn't work too well).[/IMG]After seeing that this process of applying fillers, drying, and sanding took quite some time, as well as provided a lot of difficulty when trying to sand inside small interior surfaces, I took a crack at using acetone to smooth the surface of my ABS parts. [/IMG] The process was fairly simple, I tried both hot and cold acetone baths, but the cold baths were more straightforward and I think produced better results, though it was a slower process. These are the instructions that I followed. .

    Looking to try this process on the final prints, and hopefully get some sand molds done this week (maybe even cast some parts!)

    Still struggling to upload photos.. does anyone have a suggested browser for wooden boat forums? Google Chrome seems to be failing me
    Last edited by bekight; 03-07-2016 at 05:02 PM. Reason: Adding photos

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Continuing to work on the molds, they are looking pretty. I also figured out how to upload photos!!
    [IMG][/IMG][IMG]

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    I cannot figure out why some of our students aren't sharing their work with you, so I'll post a picture or two and hopefully they will follow suit. Too busy fabricating, I suppose. Nonetheless, here is a sample of the ignition system work.


    The white bit in the photo above is a 3d printed pattern of the ignitor body, post-acetone bath for smoothing. The cast body cleaned up nicely and one of students, Josh, will be machining remaining features. They need to find or make a coil - please send me any leads. The hope is to get a spark by the end of next week using a test jig they will construct.



    In other news, the flywheel pattern is being made of maple (nice stuff), the eccentric, crank, and connecting rod are being machined, and the base, cylinder, and piston are in the CAD & pattern phase. Brady will get the water pump going next week - the pump is being cast, and the plunger machined. Brady tried making the core this morning, but the sand mix wasn't right - Sam is on top of that.
    As a bonus, Peter Kinley, CEO of Lunenburg Foundry Engineering Limited, dropped in last week to say hello from Nova Scotia. Peter was on his way to another destination and we were close enough to make the stop. It was terrific to have Peter and his wife, Martha, with us in the lab.

    Do me a favor and light a match under the apprentices. They are doing well, but a boot from the community might convince them that folks are watching.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post



    I am thinking water jacket for the top hole. The bottom hole for the carb must get through to the crank case somehow. Do you have drawings for the cylinder and piston?
    So is that an oiler hanging off the right side of the manifold (the brass and glass doodad)?
    And if it is, does it eliminate the need to mix oil with the petrol like you do with many two strokes?
    And do most people still running these engines today just block it off, and use pre-mixed oil and petrol - which would give far better control over oiling.
    Cool project, and I love the mix of old and new tech to produce the cast parts. Keep the pics coming!

    Pete
    I have seven trolls on ignore

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    I thought there was an old coil around here, but I can't find it... I'll look again in the light of day.
    They are pretty simple to make, I have always just made one up when needed. A bundle of soft iron wire (haywire) clamped in a wooden bracket and wrapped with a spool of insulated wire, bingo.

    I have no idea if this fellow is still in business... There are probably others.

    edit; more here
    http://www.gasenginemagazine.com/gas...-chargers.aspx



    Another on ebay
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/WOOD-FRAME-L...-/231798807480
    Last edited by Canoeyawl; 03-11-2016 at 02:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorB View Post
    Do me a favor and light a match under the apprentices. They are doing well, but a boot from the community might convince them that folks are watching.
    I'm watching this and the other thread. I'm sure lots of other people are also following along waiting to see what is created. Don't assume that a lack of responses or comments means people are not interested. Maybe we are just sitting on our hands to avoid clogging up a great thread.

    You are all doing a good job. I like seeing the 3D printed parts. Like all the rest of this new technology, soon we will probably wonder how people survived without computers, cell phones, digital cameras, or now 3D printers.

    The internet sure makes the world smaller.

    Sea Dreams A.K.A. Brian

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT


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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    With almost 1500 page views it seems that some of us are watching. Cambridge is only two hours away, I might come down the day you fire her up.


    Steven

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    I have an original Acadia coil for my engine. They really are pretty simple things. I will see about taking some pictures and figuring out the specifics if you guys are interested in making one.

    ........ another one here who would like to see the details of your work!

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    So is that an oiler hanging off the right side of the manifold (the brass and glass doodad)?
    And if it is, does it eliminate the need to mix oil with the petrol like you do with many two strokes?
    And do most people still running these engines today just block it off, and use pre-mixed oil and petrol - which would give far better control over oiling.
    Cool project, and I love the mix of old and new tech to produce the cast parts. Keep the pics coming!

    Pete
    Yes, I believe that is what the oiler is for. I have a manual for my Acadia engine, (it is an incredibly vague piece of work) and does make some mention of running either pre-mix or using the oilers. Yes, I agree you would get much better lubrication using premix. I think the oilers are intended more for use when running the engines on more of a kerosene mix.

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    I have an original Acadia coil for my engine. They really are pretty simple things. I will see about taking some pictures and figuring out the specifics if you guys are interested in making one.

    ........ another one here who would like to see the details of your work!

    Thanks Ned. It would be great if you could get rough dimensions and weight. Two of the students are going to make the coil with buckets of magnet wire we have kicking around and some welding rod for the core.

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    I just took a number of pictures (with a tape measure for scale) and will post them in the morning. It looks like it is wound with about .6 ohms of 14 AWG wire. Let me know if you have any any trouble translating that and I will let you know how many feet that should equal. Total weight looks like 6 LBs 2 ozs, but that doesn't tell you to much. I suppose you will be able to calculate the weight of CU, take a guess on the wood, and that will give you an idea about the core mass.
    Let me know if you would like more pictures.

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    I just took a number of pictures (with a tape measure for scale) and will post them in the morning. It looks like it is wound with about .6 ohms of 14 AWG wire. Let me know if you have any any trouble translating that and I will let you know how many feet that should equal. Total weight looks like 6 LBs 2 ozs, but that doesn't tell you to much. I suppose you will be able to calculate the weight of CU, take a guess on the wood, and that will give you an idea about the core mass.
    Let me know if you would like more pictures.
    I calculated that's 75m of 14 AWG. Approx 3lbs. A 1 1/2", 6" iron core is another 2lbs. Seems to hold water, but will await your pics. Thanks.

    Here is Josh and Jarrod's handy ignitor machining (Josh couldn't resist machining the casting clean):

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    I hope all concerned can sing Stan Rogers' beautiful song, "MAKE AND BREAK HARBOUR", while they work. Old houses stand empty, old nets hung to dry, they're blown away, lost and forgotten. Neat project.

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Very nice work!

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Will there be a significant difference between a steel core and an iron core?

    (I always used iron wire, being told that steel did not loose the magnetism as quickly)

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Love what I'm seeing so far - even if you MIT punks have been plagiarizing the Thayer School Stirling Engine!

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Will there be a significant difference between a steel core and an iron core?

    (I always used iron wire, being told that steel did not loose the magnetism as quickly)
    Don't know. Iron has much higher permeability than steel - I think it would be best to use an iron lamination, which the folks here can assemble. I'm not sure about the speed of the collapsing field though - steel v iron. They are pushing to get a spark this week.

    Boater14, we have Stan Rogers on a playlist, yes. A pretty little ditty, and a bit disorienting for some students in the lab - keeps 'em on their toes, though, which can be a good thing.

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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT

    Here you go.














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    Default Re: Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @MIT












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