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Thread: A 24 Hour Kayak

  1. #36
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    A agree on the skeg. The one potential issue I see with the shape is a good likelihood that one's knuckles or the paddle will strike the edge of the deck. I'd recommend a full-scale mock-up of the cockpit and seat in cardboard or a wire-frame type thing, and check the clearances.

    Another question is whether or not you see this as a recreational type or a potential touring type, which is to ask will the user ever want to wear a skirt? If so, the cockpit needs to be designed to accommodate one. If not, then why not make the cockpit longer so it's much easier to get in and out? Given that it's intended as an entry-level boat, I'd say go with a more generous cockpit. I think Steve is on target recommending the V shape -- easier to build and if combined with a longer cockpit, it would make room to get the knees in and out while seated, rather than having to sit on the deck to slide in and out.
    -Dave

  2. #37
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Nick Schade's Ganymede is a similar design with offsets for free: http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guil...de_Offsets.pdf
    Maybe interesting to compare it to your design: http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guil...eries/ganymede



  3. #38
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Interesting, it looks like Schade uses three panels on the deck. Two feet shorter too. Hull shape is very similar though.
    Trevor Paetkau
    Canoe Plans and Custom Boats
    Stratford, ON

  4. #39
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Heresy alert.

    The time saving idea I've been playing with is to replace stringers and chine logs with Foam Insulating Sheathing - you know, those pick or blue rigid sheets. If 2" thick sheets were used and laminated to the ply bottom and top panels my thought is that there would be sufficient landing space to glue the side panels. If the bottom and top panels were held in place by a light frame (rigid foam stations and pre-fitted bow and stern stems?) the side panels could be glued in place and trimmed after with a laminate trimmer.

    What could go wrong!
    Trevor Paetkau
    Canoe Plans and Custom Boats
    Stratford, ON

  5. #40
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    ps ... BS standard 5mm keruing here is super cheap ... thoughts?
    Trevor Paetkau
    Canoe Plans and Custom Boats
    Stratford, ON

  6. #41
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Dave wrote:

    "Tom, I don't disagree that "SOF to be the easiest, fastest, cheapest going." What I'm arguing is that for the first time builder, the ply kayak is an easier sell and more likely to get the would-be paddler building and in the water with confidence. SOF boats make non-boaters nervous. Heck, even some experienced kayakers look at my SOF boats and think it's a pretty dicey way to be heading out. It's also important to distinguish between the traditional and the fuselage frame approach to building SOF kayaks. The traditional approach requires some detailed work, in some cases cutting mortises, steaming and bending frames, and usually laminating a cockpit coaming. The fuselage boats can avoid all of these, and consequently require less skill and go together much more quickly. I'm sure I could have built a couple of ply kayaks in the time it took me to assemble my baidarka."


    All good points Dave, thanks, I agree.
    I don't build kayaks... yet.
    All my SOF experience is building 3-man, sit-on-top racing boats.

    Good point on the "spray skirt" as well.
    I'd make the provision regardless of intended use.
    It's a hugely good safety item when the seas kick up and increases it's resale value.
    IMHO of course.
    Last edited by Tom Christie; 02-04-2016 at 01:58 PM.

  7. #42

    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by tpaetkau View Post
    Iíve been thinking about this for years and figure Iíd better get it out of my system before it drives me batty.

    Iíve convinced myself somehow, thatís its possible to build a kayak in 24 hours (Iím also convinced I can do it for $240 which is an different obsession altogether). To complicate matters, I want her to be beautiful, paddle well, and be well built; I want to proud of her and I want whoever paddles her, to feel the same pride. My hubris (yup damn pride) wants her to be built by others too. I want, perhaps, what we all want when we set out to design and build a wooden boat Ö but I want to do it in a stupidly short period of time and with a pathetically small budget.
    To be successful I figure sheíll need to fit at least these criteria:


    • use panel construction (4 perhaps)
    • use chine logs vs stitch and glue (or perhaps some secret sauce)
    • use an open cockpit
    • forego complex hatches and bulk-heads
    • be designed well enough to track and turn without a rudder
    • minimize the number of ply sheets (three? four perhaps?)
    • use big-box-store adhesives
    • minimize time on the lofting table
    • reduce scarfing to the bare minimum (butt joints?)


    I began sketching in Delftship a year or so ago and built a basswood model. Unfortunately, when moving files to a new machine I lost the .fbm files but I do have the model. Here then, is what Iím starting with. Iím thinking over the next couple of weeks Iíll sketch her again. In the meantime, hereís the first shot, a rather poor pic of the model.




    Perhaps, next time Iím in the shop Iíll be the opposite of absent minded, and bring a camera. Until then, Iíd be awfully interested from those who have shared a similar delusion.

    Trevor

    See Building Plans for an elegant Solo Cedar Strip Canoe


    How about a DD-21 by Denis Davis?
    You could probably knock off three 24 hrs.


    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...#zax/350331650

  8. #43
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by tpaetkau View Post
    Heresy alert.

    The time saving idea I've been playing with is to replace stringers and chine logs with Foam Insulating Sheathing - you know, those pick or blue rigid sheets. If 2" thick sheets were used and laminated to the ply bottom and top panels my thought is that there would be sufficient landing space to glue the side panels. If the bottom and top panels were held in place by a light frame (rigid foam stations and pre-fitted bow and stern stems?) the side panels could be glued in place and trimmed after with a laminate trimmer.

    What could go wrong!
    Pretty much everything. Plus, you probably wouldn't even fit in the boat with such thick structural members.
    -Dave

  9. #44
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    +1 for Woxbox

    Typical polystyrene is very low strength and stiffness.
    If you want flotation OK.
    If you want structure save yourself the effort and failure.

    Make a test, a bottom panel and a side panel with and without the foam and break them.
    You don't need chine logs, epoxy fillets have been used for 30+ years. If you need a real strength increase then you glass over the fillet.
    Really a simple process.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Hmmm ...

    The polystyrene isn't so much for structure as it is for simplicity. It provides a landing surface for the side panels, both of which could none-the-less be taped on the exterior if need be. What the foam core does do is sidestep the issue of using interior tape and filets, chine logs, or stitch and glue.

    If a BS rated panel were laminated effectively to a foam core, I think we could anticipate a sturdy composite panel with both impact resistance (from keruing lets say) and stiffness (from the layup). What I don't know is the gluing characteristics of the polystyrene; nor, how hydrophobic it is in long term use. Should both of those be non-issues I can't see why using it as a core material would any less effective than let's say balsa or otherwise structurally weak materials used in other marine applications. That said, I haven't done it before, nor have I put aside the time to research, so I simply can't say with any authority.
    Trevor Paetkau
    Canoe Plans and Custom Boats
    Stratford, ON

  11. #46
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Not to beat a dead horse - that foam has no strength.
    Completely in-apropriate for this use.
    But I won't worry, it will probably collapse before you get to the water, so you will not be in danger.

    I did try some experiments with that foam.
    Completely useless.

    I won't bother you again about that.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    Not to beat a dead horse - that foam has no strength.
    Completely in-apropriate for this use.
    But I won't worry, it will probably collapse before you get to the water, so you will not be in danger.

    I did try some experiments with that foam.
    Completely useless.

    I won't bother you again about that.
    I understand. My wife calls me stubborn ...
    The foam also has little shear strength. I suspect it could separate beneath the glue.
    Folks over at duckworks are making entire boats out of it however ... ugly things.
    The technique I'm attempting to describe also works with chine logs as a guide to trim the hull and bottom, and then fasten and trim the side panels.
    Trevor Paetkau
    Canoe Plans and Custom Boats
    Stratford, ON

  13. #48
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    I did hear from somebody using the foam as a core for structural bulkheads though. He didn't report any cautions.
    Trevor Paetkau
    Canoe Plans and Custom Boats
    Stratford, ON

  14. #49
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    In hopes of picking this project up again when the shop re-opens I've begun drawing again and a thought struck me when positioning the cockpit and seat.

    I've thought it proper to align the boat CoB with the paddlers centre of mass as a starting point but what if I were really skinny, or portly, or had a short torso and long legs, or short legs, or or or ... it got me thinking that I could build a simple spreadsheet that could help a paddler determine how much fore or aft of the drawn plans he or she might want to mount a seat, or the backband ...

    This in turn has lead me down a rabbit hole. What's the best way of determining a given individual's centre of mass whilst in a seated (paddling) position? It all seems fraught with fiddliness ... ideas?
    Trevor Paetkau
    Canoe Plans and Custom Boats
    Stratford, ON

  15. #50
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    had a similar ponderment when i built my Portuguese Dinghy

    i ended up installing a longitudinal thwart similar to the one Phil Bolger prescribes for his Nymph Dinghy

    & whoever is in her sits where the balance is best

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  16. #51
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    All you have to do is lay a board over a stout length of dowel. Sit on the board and shift back and forward until you are balanced on the dowel. Now mark the location of your back, the balance point, and while you're at it, where your heels land. That's how you commence building a traditional Greenland kayak to fit your own personal framework.

    Excellent and detailed instructions can be found in Christopher Cunningham's "Building the Greenland Kayak."
    -Dave

  17. #52
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Different animal, I have a Tom Hill Ultra-light double paddle canoe (a mouthful for a kayak with no deck). There was a seat back installed originally, probably for a person of normal height. I am 6'5" tall, 230#. I sit on a thin cushion on the bottom, and lean a float cushion on sash cord run through the inwales from side to side. Completely adjustable. You might just put a spacer or a couple of attachment points under the side decks and run an adjustable strap through it. No permanent seat at all. You could put a longer sole/seat in it to accommodate different paddlers.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Its a lot easier just to layout the sections on the face of the plywood. Cheaper too.

    You are completely overthinking this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Staples or Office Depot has wide format printers which is really useful for things like this if you can put the parts on a standard sheet and save as PDF at 1:1. It's a pretty economical way to go. Just bring it in on a thumb drive.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    Its a lot easier just to layout the sections on the face of the plywood. Cheaper too.

    You are completely overthinking this.
    I would say it depends on the number of panels you have. I did the print out full size panels for my 12' x30" with four panels. As these had double symmetry I could cut out four panels at once using a pettern and router. I would say I cut out the whole 16 pieces in less time than in would take to loft them.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Watch out for the notch in the fwd and aft frames at the stringers next to the keel.
    Its not going to actually fit the stringer.

    Same thing for the Sea Tour EXP 15, 17, and the 20 Double.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Hard to believe that I first posited this concept three years ago.

    We're finally building the mock-ups ... designed to go together with chine logs ... the foredeck/aftdeck join as pictured here will require that a novice slow down a tad ... will also experiment with a single panel deck with a dart aft the cockpit ... 3mm will take the abuse, but I'm not sure about it with regards to abuse on the water and longevity. Early March we'll have a group of students in to test the 24 hour build concept ... so far it seems possible.

    Here she is with the decks tacked on as per the drawings ...

    (Oh, and a word of caution ... should the odd one or two of you be tempted to loft based on the dimensions in the attached pic, you may just find yourself scratching your head ... final dimensions ain't that doncha know : ) ... )



    Trevor Paetkau
    Canoe Plans and Custom Boats
    Stratford, ON

  22. #57
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    We had a significant "win" with the 24 Hour Kayak today ... the mock up of a single-panel deck was a success. The lines carry nicely, the ply conforms to the sheer, and the whole package goes together MORE easily than the two-panel mock up. What this means is that we'll be able to prep the plans as a true 4 panel boat whilst maintaining the lines of the the All Water series. She'll be simple AND beautiful ... I couldn't be more pleased.

    Trevor Paetkau
    Canoe Plans and Custom Boats
    Stratford, ON

  23. #58
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Working on the instructional materials now ... this links to an intro to the build technique and basic step. It's a bit of a tease, really, but but but ...

    https://ashesstillwaterboats.com/24-...uild-sequence/

    Who would've thought something so simple could be so complex.

    Trevor Paetkau
    Canoe Plans and Custom Boats
    Stratford, ON

  24. #59
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    I think it's perfectly doable, both by time and budget (if you don't count the time waiting for the glue and paint to dry.)
    Sooooo, once the plans were drawn and all ... 3 sheets exterior ply for the panels, and 1 sheet for the stems, stations and coaming, even at $40 per sheet is getting really close to the budget limit ... add $40 for clear stock for the chine logs, $30 for paint, $30 for disposables and and and ... screws, glue, strongback?

    We did the calcs using Lowes as the source ... urgh.... we're close to $300 USD when all is said and done.

    https://ashesstillwaterboats.com/24-...yak/materials/

    Other thoughts anyone?
    Trevor Paetkau
    Canoe Plans and Custom Boats
    Stratford, ON

  25. #60
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    $300 is still a pretty cheap boatbuild.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Skin on frame would be cheaper. Ply frames, pine or fir stringers, polyester cover, porch paint.
    -Dave

  27. #62
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    In 2015 I couldn't build one of my Fuselage Frame boats for $300 without taking short cuts and using cheap materials. Even with all the boats I have built it took me 46 hours labor. First time couldn't do that most likely.

    http://www.kudzupatch.com/blog/2014/...ting-the-cost/
    Last edited by Kudzu; 04-04-2019 at 08:48 AM.
    Jeff
    Kudzu Craft Skin boats
    SoF boat kits, supplies and plans

  28. #63
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by johngsandusky View Post
    $300 is still a pretty cheap boatbuild.
    Yup, I agree ...
    I recall years ago when I had oodles of time and zero dollars when even $20 made a difference ... then, $300 would have seemed impossible.
    It's an odd world ain't it, when folks are advertising the $100,000 canoe (urgh ... https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-thi...000-1465830784 )and we're after shaving 40 bucks?
    In any event, that ain't the point ...
    Trevor Paetkau
    Canoe Plans and Custom Boats
    Stratford, ON

  29. #64
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by Kudzu View Post
    In 2015 I couldn't build one of my Fuselage Frame boats for $300 without taking short cuts and using cheap materials. Even with all the boats I have built it took me 46 hours labor.
    Oh yes. My "made to order" boats became so expensive that only the "acquisitional" and otherwise "discretionary" rich in the US and Canada would commission them. Our current shop in Brazil, a country with significant wealth inequities (the rich are RICH and there are lots of them), is a good place to have landed as it relates to sales. This puts food on the table, but does not make me feel good. Just sayin' ...

    The plans for the 24 Hour Kayak on the other hand were designed for a those with limited resources and limited networks ... the difference between $240 and $300 regrettably makes a difference between boat and no-boat ... and for the micro-manufacturers in the resort communities of the more challenged economies of coastal Caribbean and N Africa, the tens of dollars are significant.

    I recall at one time in my youth becoming animated by the idea of the $100,000 house.
    Now I wonder, is there a $100 boat?
    Trevor Paetkau
    Canoe Plans and Custom Boats
    Stratford, ON

  30. #65
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    I once built a 14' flatiron skiff of lumberyard pine with galvanized nails. I think it cost me more than $100 in the nineties, maybe more than $200.
    If I had to build a boat for a C-note I think it would be a skin on frame kayak using the cheapest lumber that wouldn't break (lathing?) covered with secondhand sheets and painted with latex, maybe also secondhand.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Somebody doesn't know jack in talking about a $100k canoe.
    Especially one that weighs 150#.

    Senseless article.

    And I agree that there is a perfectly good point in trying to make a "good" boat for minimum $.

    I told quite a few young guys that SOF was the cheapest way to make a useful boat - it was obvious that most could not afford the cost and couldn't even afford the tools to get started.
    Made me feel like an ass that I couldn't suggest anything else that would work well.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    .......
    I told quite a few young guys that SOF was the cheapest way to make a useful boat - it was obvious that most could not afford the cost and couldn't even afford the tools to get started.
    Made me feel like an ass that I couldn't suggest anything else that would work well.
    Cheap start to paddling?

    Buy secondhand - I spent some time this winter slaving over a hot (virtual) drawing board - working towards a quick kayak for a long trip this coming summer - and then scored a white water race boat for the UK equivalent of ten dollars.

    SickSquid.jpg
    Scored the matching set of blades for very small money
    gees.jpg

    I've not paddled a white water race boat seriously in thirty years so the next few months will be interesting.
    Last edited by P.I. Stazzer-Newt; 04-07-2019 at 11:33 AM.
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Update ...

    We've got a class undertaking a build (or builds) ... 6 classes of 4 hours each ... whaddya think the chances are that the students finish ?

    Okay, that's kind of glib ... they will finish but might need some time outside class to get through each individual stage.
    My hope would be at the end of this we will have the confidence to FINALLY release the plans ... (the 24 Hour Kayak link)

    And whilst unlikely on this forum, I would like to invite any builders with a few spare nights AND lives in Sao Paulo (there are close to 22 Million people afterall) to take a look at the course description, and should it be your druthers, join us ...

    Building a 24 Hour Kayak

    Even though the site is in Portuguese the course is in English ... just sayin' ... use Google Translate
    Trevor Paetkau
    Canoe Plans and Custom Boats
    Stratford, ON

  34. #69
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    Default Re: A 24 Hour Kayak

    Cool. Good luck, keep us posted.

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