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Thread: The UNA Project

  1. #71
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Steamboat View Post
    Nothing specific to UNA but an interesting writeup on Gil Smith and his boats that you may/may not have:
    http://nautarch.tamu.edu/pdf-files/Merwin-MA2000.pdf
    Interesting about stuff that got left out of an otherwise creditable piece. Nothing in there about the reproduction of Senad, built at the ApprenticeShop called MADIGAN which I think is now on Great South Bay. and the Gil Smith work done by Donn Costanzo. No mention of the Gil Smith catboat in the Mystic Seaport Museum collection 1960.4. More importantly for an academic paper, there is no looking at the interconnections between the Great South Bay and the Barnegat area of the Jersey shore. Catboats were similar, gunning boats were similar with the Scooter being basically a sneakbox with runners, and the Seaford Skiff which has the same size and shape as the Jersey melonseeds.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Vernon Langille, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity and a quiver of unamed 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  2. #72
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    Very nice!
    ----------- You say she is an early example of a N.J. cat, .... She was built there? (Did you post a thread a couple of years ago about researching a an early NJ cat that was built somewhere around the Perth Amboy area of NJ?....... Was that Una??) Am I putting the pieces together correctly here? (Sorry I'm a bit late joining in here.)
    As a comment on her frames, by the 1850's steam bent ribs were well established on the Jersey shore so they were certainly available as a choice for her.
    I'd be surprised If bronze rowlocks would have been used on her at that time. Thole pins were definitely all over the Jersey shore then.
    Thanks for the information.... UNA was built in Pamrapo, NJ (Bayonne area), I'm definitely doing the steam bent ribs and thole pins. Most of the hardware was probably done in wrought or cast iron. My hardware will be silicon bronze because I can't help myself.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Does the North Haven Dinghy offer any guidance?


  4. #74
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Not really, North Haven dinghy was Maine built thirty or more years later when steam bent frames, hardware etc had become common. They are built like a dinghy of the era and in fact were based on a boat carried in a schooner yacht's davits.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Vernon Langille, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity and a quiver of unamed 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  5. #75
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Dry fitting elements of the centerboard trunk... some minor details need to be worked out, but I'm generally happy. Shifting over to the centerboard. It needs additional weight and some reinforcement where the lifting line will be secured.





  6. #76
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    I'm waiting while the CPES cures. Spent time getting the spars just a little bit closer to being done. Still have 2 pieces to attach, but will do that when I can get a clear idea of placement with the mast built and installed.





  7. #77
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Very nice!

  8. #78
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    What Thad said ....

    Love the model too !

  9. #79
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Spent today weighting the centerboard with 7 pounds of lead. That should motivate it to drop. Began the process of tapering the keel by starting with the stern. It turns out a freshly sharpened saw helps a lot! I did use the circular saw to start the process.






  10. #80
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Forgive me for asking if the answer is obvious; but looking back through your threads on the boat I don't see it - what is the length and beam on UNA?
    How much sail area?

  11. #81
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    16 and 1/2 feet.... Sail area? Luff-12' Foot- 17' 6" Head- 9' Leech- 19'

  12. #82
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Quote Originally Posted by timo4352 View Post
    Forgive me for asking if the answer is obvious; but looking back through your threads on the boat I don't see it - what is the length and beam on UNA?
    How much sail area?
    She's 6.5' wide, because she's a New York/New Jersey type. Much narrower than the Cape Cod type.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Great work, great project, and it's amazing to see how heavily Una was built. Boats of the era of the North Haven Dinghy appear to be much lighter in construction - what was the difference in the materials and techniques that allowed the reduction in weight? Was it just a matter of getting used to paring down the margins? Did the arrival of the canoes lead to developments in reducing structural weight?

    Christies sold a "builders model" of Truant, Una's big sister and arguably even more important in design history, in 2015. It would be wonderful if someone could take the lines off the Truant model. If the exact link between Truant and the arrival of the sandbagger in Germany could be proven then it could be that Truant was the second most influential design in centreboarder history in some ways; perhaps the most important design in sailboat racing, although one can never really be sure.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Some comments on shape and bending.
    The Crosby's all used cant frames in the ends of the boats, in fact they did no dubbing. Battens went up over two or three molds as I recall. Then a wooden chain used to get the shape where a frame was wanted. Frame bent outside the mold then went into the boat allowed to lay normal to the battens.

    Steam bending becomes common post (American) civil war. Earlier small boats had sawn frames and floor timbers. The classic whitehall structure is kind of transitional, with bent frames and floor timbers. Frames were often bent on molds outside the boat. By the 70s and 80s builders on small boats were doing full width frames. Advanced boat building was seeing how big frames could be steamed. By turn of century the navy was doing all their frames outside boats using bending tables, which is what you have to do when you don't want or can't build molds strong enough to take the clamping needed for heavy timbers. As far as time on all this, fire bending was well known back into the 17th century anyway, and continued well into the 19th and early 20th. It is for example how the Dutch got those heavy planks to bend almost 90 degrees. Emulating this with steamed planks was fast but capable of lots of mistakes. Steam bending may have originated with furniture making which would be 40's. I think Ed McClave did a paper on engineered wood but I don't have it to hand.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Vernon Langille, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity and a quiver of unamed 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  15. #85
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Some comments on shape and bending.
    The Crosby's all used cant frames in the ends of the boats, in fact they did no dubbing. Battens went up over two or three molds as I recall. Then a wooden chain used to get the shape where a frame was wanted. Frame bent outside the mold then went into the boat allowed to lay normal to the battens.

    Steam bending becomes common post (American) civil war. Earlier small boats had sawn frames and floor timbers. The classic whitehall structure is kind of transitional, with bent frames and floor timbers. Frames were often bent on molds outside the boat. By the 70s and 80s builders on small boats were doing full width frames. Advanced boat building was seeing how big frames could be steamed. By turn of century the navy was doing all their frames outside boats using bending tables, which is what you have to do when you don't want or can't build molds strong enough to take the clamping needed for heavy timbers. As far as time on all this, fire bending was well known back into the 17th century anyway, and continued well into the 19th and early 20th. It is for example how the Dutch got those heavy planks to bend almost 90 degrees. Emulating this with steamed planks was fast but capable of lots of mistakes. Steam bending may have originated with furniture making which would be 40's. I think Ed McClave did a paper on engineered wood but I don't have it to hand.
    Thank you, that's a lot of information I hadn't known. By the way, I think it was Eric Hvalso that told me he'd seen fire bending still being used in the Netherlands.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Returned from a week off and will be attempting to get the keel elements assembled. Just started the stern post assembly,



  17. #87
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Spent my birthday giving birth to a level. Hard work, but I'm nearly there. A bit more planing on either end and it's done.





  18. #88
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    The keel is ready and I'm now staring at this table.... define top of timbers. I imagine these have something to do with setting up the frames, but it seems a little vague to me. Ben Fuller, help me out!!!

  19. #89
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    The heights above LWL are probably defining the shear line. The depths below are odd because of those three stations without dimensions. How do they compare with the dimensions that you used on the model?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  20. #90
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Guess I'd need to look at the lofting. I agree with Nick that the heights of timbers above the DWL give you the sheer line, but from this it looks like the highest is station 8. Is that towards the bow? Or is there another station at the stem, a station 0 that does not show here.

    Measuring up and down from the DWL is unusual, so things are a little different.

    For the missing rabbet dimensions, my guess is that you run a straight line between the points indicated. Don't know about section 8, depends on where that is.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Vernon Langille, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity and a quiver of unamed 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  21. #91
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Guess I'd need to look at the lofting. I agree with Nick that the heights of timbers above the DWL give you the sheer line, but from this it looks like the highest is station 8. Is that towards the bow? Or is there another station at the stem, a station 0 that does not show here.

    Measuring up and down from the DWL is unusual, so things are a little different.

    For the missing rabbet dimensions, my guess is that you run a straight line between the points indicated. Don't know about section 8, depends on where that is.
    From the lines in Dixon Kemp. 1 is just aft of the stem, 8 is the transom. The rebate runs straight from 1 to 5 and then starts to rise to the DWL at 8. So Ben you are correct, the missing 2, 3, & 4 dimensions lie on a straight line. There is no measurement at 8 as the measurement is zero.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  22. #92
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Yes, what you said..... I've decided to use my scale drawing of UNA to pick off the rabbet line. The frames are all done, I'll just have to tinker with how much to remove to straddle the keel. I'll keep you all posted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    From the lines in Dixon Kemp. 1 is just aft of the stem, 8 is the transom. The rebate runs straight from 1 to 5 and then starts to rise to the DWL at 8. So Ben you are correct, the missing 2, 3, & 4 dimensions lie on a straight line. There is no measurement at 8 as the measurement is zero.

  23. #93
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Keep in mind that "DWL" in Kemp's drawing is unlikely to be how the boat sat in the water. He took the lines off a lift model, and "DWL" is really where the lifts separate. It is pretty much parallel to the keel, which I think was fairly common with lift models. I have the lines of Bob Fish's Luckey, which show the stem well below the waterline. That is not how you trim a sharpie, and Luckey is a kind of sharpie, so I went looking for picture of the vessel under sail. I found a drawing which showed her trimmed like all other sharpies, with the stem just above the waterline.

    Here is the lines drawing:



    ...and here is a contemporaneous drawing of Lukey under sail:


    So, the reason the stern seems to be higher than the bow is that Kemp was mistaken about what the separation between the lifts represented.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    The Kemp figures I used to build the model have no mention of a DWL.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    The Kemp figures I used to build the model have no mention of a DWL.
    I don't have the book in front of me, but do his offsets mention an LWL?

  26. #96
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Today's efforts.... the rabbet line (have not positioned the nails for the bow stem). Will do the starboard side tomorrow. The white line is the LWL.




  27. #97
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    As was the case with Luckey, I do not think this is the actual LWL. It is an artifact of the way Kemp interpreted the lift model.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    It's the only reference point I have to work with regardless of "what " it may represent.....

  29. #99
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Sherman View Post
    It's the only reference point I have to work with regardless of "what " it may represent.....
    But at some point, you'll have to ballast the boat to float on its lines.

  30. #100
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I don't have the book in front of me, but do his offsets mention an LWL?
    The source drawings I used have a LWL noted.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Right, call it LWL or DWL, I very much doubt the real boat floated like that.

  33. #103
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Right, call it LWL or DWL, I very much doubt the real boat floated like that.
    At 16' 6" she will change trim on every point of sailing and with every movement in the boat that her crew makes.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  34. #104
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    At 16' 6" she will change trim on every point of sailing and with every movement in the boat that her crew makes.
    Yes, but the boat carried ballast, and if you use that picture to figure out where to place it, I don't think the boat will handle properly.

  35. #105
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    Default Re: The UNA Project

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Yes, but the boat carried ballast, and if you use that picture to figure out where to place it, I don't think the boat will handle properly.
    I am inclined to agree, she needs some drag to the keel, lifting the bow and raising the sheer forward. It is a pity that there are no buttocks on that drawing to help visualise the centre of buoyancy. That would also lengthen the run, not a bad thing.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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