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Thread: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

  1. #211
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    John, I suppose the well location for the outboard could also be a slot fitted for a Mirage drive? This would keep it out of the way and avoid having to fit the drive through a ballast tank and all that. One would be facing aft while propelling the boat with the drive -- as some did with the rigs set up for the Race to Alaska -- but might it be an option to rowing?
    Dave, there is plenty of space for a pedal drive, or an outboard motor, this is a long boat by sail and oar standards, and there is close to two metres of space available aft of the ballast tank.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  2. #212
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    I've just posted an update on my blog, pics of progress on Long Steps and my ramblings about what I'm doing on the project.

    http://jwboatdesigns.blogspot.co.nz/

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  3. #213
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.


  4. #214
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    Enjoyed reading the blog, John. I'm sick with a cold right now so reading about sailing was good incentive to get better plus I didn't have to wash any sails or put stuff away or even leave the house to enjoy a good sailing story. Great that you got to enjoy SEI some more.

    Your observations about comparisons between the Special and SEI were interesting. I suspect that Long Steps will be a little faster than either of them unless the Special gets up on a plane and stays there screaming along in winds like the Texas200.

    Also great to see planks going on Long Steps. In these latest photos, we can get a much better idea of the hull form. She seems to have more freeboard than I was thinking but some of that impression could have been caused by the low camera angle.

    Your use of the 6 mm meranti ply glassed on both sides for planking makes me wonder if a guy could go with sapele glassed just on the inside and the outside left bright to really wow them at the boat shows yet still produce a very useable boat for Everglades Challenge and Texas200.

    Keep up the good work, John, and have a great time in Chile.



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  5. #215
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Enjoyed reading the blog, John. I'm sick with a cold right now so reading about sailing was good incentive to get better plus I didn't have to wash any sails or put stuff away or even leave the house to enjoy a good sailing story. Great that you got to enjoy SEI some more.

    Your observations about comparisons between the Special and SEI were interesting. I suspect that Long Steps will be a little faster than either of them unless the Special gets up on a plane and stays there screaming along in winds like the Texas200.

    Also great to see planks going on Long Steps. In these latest photos, we can get a much better idea of the hull form. She seems to have more freeboard than I was thinking but some of that impression could have been caused by the low camera angle.

    Your use of the 6 mm meranti ply glassed on both sides for planking makes me wonder if a guy could go with sapele glassed just on the inside and the outside left bright to really wow them at the boat shows yet still produce a very useable boat for Everglades Challenge and Texas200.

    Keep up the good work, John, and have a great time in Chile.



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    Get well soon Ken, We're well into spring here so the winter blues are all gone.
    Long steps should be noticeably faster than Saturday Night Special in all but extreme planing conditions. Walkabout will run at over twice hull speed and Long Steps is similar but longer so 12 knots plus is the target when reaching or running in a breeze, whereas we dont yet know what the limit is for SNS, I expect though that things might be more excitable than desirable at much past 15 knots, a slight mistake at those speeds can dampen your enthusiasm a little whereas Long Steps is intended to be able to turn in a consistently high average speed in a wide range off wind and sea conditions.
    I've just picked up some more glass tape and a roll of cloth so am back working on bullet proofing her lower planks.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  6. #216
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    A Mirage drive seems a bit underpowered or underbuilt for a boat of Long Steps weight. But that's just the Gut Engineer.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

  7. #217
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    There have been times in both my Matanzas River (Florida's Intercoastal Waterway near St. Augustine) and in my brief venture in the Texas 200 Intercoastal when there was a whole bunch of wind but not really much chop. The water just had not enough time to kick up enough chop or the water surface was protected by land or some combination of the two. In those conditions I was really flying in the SNS but too darn preoccupied to record the speed on my GPS. In similar conditions here in St. Augustine with two crew guys aboard, I became one of the only helmsman to ever capsize a Caledonia Yawl while actually sailing. One tripped over her anchor line once but that hardly counts.

    At my age I'd rather let someone else figure out how fast a SNS can go but I've still got a lot of sailing left to do in Bernadette (SNS) before I move to a Long Steps. Bernadette is built like a military tank in fir so she' quite heavy but in high winds and on a plane, she is very solid. I still haven't pressed her very hard yet because I want the photo boat there when I do and the photo boat crew has been slacking as of late.


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  8. #218
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    BBSebens, from what I've seen and read the Hobie Mirage Pro level is neither under powered nor under built. For a Long Steps in the Everglades Challenge it could mean that the guy at the helm could be cranking a Mirage (and actually see where they're going) and the person forward could be rowing conventionally facing aft. That way the two could have face to face conversations that would help melt the miles away when caught in a calm or fighting a stiff current. Plus there would be no banging of the oars like what happens sometimes when two try to row with two rowing stations. It could be a win win situation.


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  9. #219
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    Also forgot to mention that because the muscle groups using the Mirage (mostly legs) and those used for rowing (mostly back, arms, and shoulders) are different enough so that by switching places the crew can wear out every last bit of muscle power that two human bodies have to offer. As you know the Everglades Challenge is a race so any advantage is welcomed.


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  10. #220
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Progress on Long Steps from John's blog http://jwboatdesigns.blogspot.co.uk/...tbuilding.html


  11. #221
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Wishing my workspace was as clean as that right now.....

  12. #222
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Wishing my workspace was as clean as that right now.....
    Hah! While its all swept out, its past time for a serious tidy up.
    Just so people know, that old bed sheet hanging up in the rafters is the catcher underneath a swallows nest, they produce two batches of chicks each year and I cant bring myself to evict them.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  13. #223
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    BBSebens, from what I've seen and read the Hobie Mirage Pro level is neither under powered nor under built. For a Long Steps in the Everglades Challenge it could mean that the guy at the helm could be cranking a Mirage (and actually see where they're going) and the person forward could be rowing conventionally facing aft. That way the two could have face to face conversations that would help melt the miles away when caught in a calm or fighting a stiff current. Plus there would be no banging of the oars like what happens sometimes when two try to row with two rowing stations. It could be a win win situation.


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    I've no doubts of the quality of the Mirage drive. I've held one and admired it, although never had a chance to use one. My worry with a mirage drive in a boat like Long Steps is ability to adequately propel the boat. Mirage drive was designed for 3-400 lbs of person and plastic kayak, not 1000+lbs or more of an expedition-loaded Sail & Oar boat. An easily deployable pedal drive would be a godsend to the non-motorized ethos of small boat cruising.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

  14. #224
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    1000+lbs or more of an expedition-loaded Sail & Oar boat.
    Really? Is that what Long Steps will be displacing when pushing off for a week?
    -Dave

  15. #225
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    From what I saw of the one at the 2015 WoodenBoat Show, the Mirage drive looked nicely overbuilt. It's more like the Mirage was designed to handle the power that two healthy strong human legs can generate rather than consideration for what you attach it to. Also I'm proposing that for raid racing the drive would be used while the other crew member took his or her turn at the oars. For an adventure boat the drive could be used as a backup to the oars or vice versa (or a way for a solo sailor to utilize different muscle groups to propel the boat forward). My biggest problem with the Mirage drive is the cost of the thing!


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  16. #226
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Do they have the Mirage Drive listed separately for sale? I was at their website awhile back and didn't find the drive listed for sale by itself, only with specs and pricing for it with a boat. If you have a link to purchase it could you please post it. Thanks
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

  17. #227
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Look no further than Amazon $609 for this model. There's another for $550. It is pricey compared to other small boat stuff, but having spent silly amounts of money on bigger sailboat gear, the price is not out of line for a specialty item made to live in salt water and take a beating, besides. But to be sure, a couple of 2x4s and a little time in the workshop will produce a pair of oars.

    -Dave

  18. #228
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Look no further than Amazon $609 for this model. There's another for $550. It is pricey compared to other small boat stuff, but having spent silly amounts of money on bigger sailboat gear, the price is not out of line for a specialty item made to live in salt water and take a beating, besides. But to be sure, a couple of 2x4s and a little time in the workshop will produce a pair of oars.
    I don't know why I didn't even think of looking on Amazon. I purchase from their site all the time. Thanks for the link
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

  19. #229
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    The Mirage makes better use of the strongest muscles on the human body - your legs. Also the foils of the Mirage spend more time propelling the boat forward so they're more efficient when using that leg power. With oars you have all that down time in between strokes. With the drive it's just a quick flip of the foils and the foils do not have to break the surface of the water or emerge from it.


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  20. #230
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    ... Mirage drive was designed for 3-400 lbs of person and plastic kayak, not 1000+lbs or more of an expedition-loaded Sail & Oar boat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Really? Is that what Long Steps will be displacing when pushing off for a week?
    I've probably made some bad guesses... but it could be a bit more than that:
    460 lbs boat targeted dry weight (does that include foils, spars, and rigging? seems a tad light)
    275 lbs water ballast
    180 lbs crew, solo
    300 lbs water (20 litres x 7 days x 2.2 lbs/litre)
    50 lbs food for a week or more?
    50 lbs cooking and sleeping kit, tools, spares, etc?
    1215 lbs total

    And, it depends where you're cruising... because water is pretty heavy! I don't use nearly as much as that around here, less than 10 litres/day cruising two-up. Here in the pacific northwest where resupply is not difficult, we leave the launch ramp with about 40 litres (88 lbs), pick up another 20 before the week is up, and come home with leftover. (so subtract 200 lbs... right on the money Ben!)

    But, hey, you could always pump that ballast tank dry if you're going to be pedalling for long.

    (John, you'll have to correct all my errors...)

    Cheers,
    Dale

  21. #231
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by dsimonson View Post
    I've probably made some bad guesses... but it could be a bit more than that:
    460 lbs boat targeted dry weight (does that include foils, spars, and rigging? seems a tad light)
    275 lbs water ballast
    180 lbs crew, solo
    300 lbs water (20 litres x 7 days x 2.2 lbs/litre)
    50 lbs food for a week or more?
    50 lbs cooking and sleeping kit, tools, spares, etc?
    1215 lbs total

    And, it depends where you're cruising... because water is pretty heavy! I don't use nearly as much as that around here, less than 10 litres/day cruising two-up. Here in the pacific northwest where resupply is not difficult, we leave the launch ramp with about 40 litres (88 lbs), pick up another 20 before the week is up, and come home with leftover. (so subtract 200 lbs... right on the money Ben!)

    But, hey, you could always pump that ballast tank dry if you're going to be pedalling for long.

    (John, you'll have to correct all my errors...)

    Cheers,
    Dale
    Hi Dale, good to hear from you.
    I was counting on around 1400 lb when setting off for the expedition that I was designing for, and thats with carbon fibre spars that are a fraction of the weight of wooden ones.
    But my own Long Steps is being built to withstand surf landings on rocky beaches so has a bit extra material in places so will likely go just over 500 lbs dry, and I'll be carrying 2 big deep cycle batteries, stores for 2 weeks, cockpit tent, two pairs of oars, storm sails, two anchors, sea anchor, and a wider range of clothing than I would normally take on a cruise.
    I'm planning a 4 week, 1600 mile voyage that will at times see me at sea for up to three days at a time, the plan is to spend a year doing shorter cruises locally to get the boat and myself sorted before I head on out.
    I've some of the planks hung, and the spaces are beginning to take shape, there is a lot of space in this boat, its 11 ft from the forward end of the cuddy to the after end of the cockpit, the cuddy is both longer and wider, and the forward lockers bigger. She's more than 6 ft longer than SCAMP, and where SCAMP feels roomy, this feels like a suite at the Hilton.

    John Welsford
    Last edited by john welsford; 11-29-2016 at 06:03 PM.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  22. #232
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    John,
    What are the basic dimensions of LongSteps at this point, including draft. Please forgive me if this has already been covered. I have read people posts stating them, but have had a hard time reading them on the plans and vaguely remember you writing that you lengthened it, but I very well could be wrong on that.
    Thanks

  23. #233
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    18ft 6in x 5 ft 5in x 460 lbs

    (from his blog)

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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Thanks Dirc, I am still wondering about the draft, guessing ?? 7" or so

  25. #235
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    About 9 inches at the after end of the skeg ( loaded) with the 'board up Matt and 3 ft 3in with the 'board down. Just over ankle deep! I expect to be able to sail her to windward in about 2 ft of water with the 'board up.

    I'm back in NZ again after the Chile trip, will be with family for a few days then returning to my ship and workshop, will be drawing and working on the build of Long Steps again soon.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  26. #236
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Right on John, thanks. I have really enjoyed following Howard and your progress in Chile.

  27. #237
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    This is what I like about the Long Steps design. You can load all the plywood you need to build it in the back of a 4 cylinder truck and drive home with it. Today I've got to build a new work table so I can splice some of these sheets together. Getting excited about my LS build!


  28. #238
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    bump?
    Nosce te ipsum

  29. #239
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    an early builder




  30. #240
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    How's Long Steps coming along John? Are you back working on it yet?
    Travis.

  31. #241
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuri View Post
    How's Long Steps coming along John? Are you back working on it yet?
    Travis.
    I got home from Chile a month later than expected, had visitors from USA ( very welcome) then a week away with a group of open boat cruisers, and am only now back home with no outside distractions. So, in among catching up on drawings and doing maintenance on the old ship I live on, I'm getting a bit done on Long Steps. Yesterday I picked out the plywood that will be the cockpit floor, have the two offcentercase sides made up, and have the second plank up all shaped and ready to fit, I just need to use that as a template for the one on the other side.

    So yes, there is progress.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  32. #242
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Long Steps seems to be designed around the premise of solo rowing, sailing, and camp cruising, no? (My apologies if I am way off on this assumption!) Any thoughts as to if it could reasonably accomplish these chores with two people? Is there room for two adults to sleep on board?

    I am excited to continue watching these first builds come to life!

    Tom
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    Be noble for you are made of stars.

  33. #243
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Bird View Post
    Long Steps seems to be designed around the premise of solo rowing, sailing, and camp cruising, no? (My apologies if I am way off on this assumption!) Any thoughts as to if it could reasonably accomplish these chores with two people? Is there room for two adults to sleep on board?

    I am excited to continue watching these first builds come to life!

    Tom
    Yes, there is room for two to sleep aboard, or a group of up to six to daysail.

    I am mulling over an outboard motor well but am building mine in its "pure" form.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  34. #244
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Here's a mirage drive adapted to a wooden boat
    Last edited by WAGrunter; 04-04-2017 at 09:25 AM.

  35. #245
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by WAGrunter View Post
    Here's a mirage drive adapted to a wooden boat
    I like those, but in a boat designed to be beached I'd prefer not to have the 'case and all the mechanics in there. Stopping to pull them up, leaving the boat without the propulsion needed to get her in to shore is an issue as well. Nice idea, but not right for this particular job.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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