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Thread: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

  1. #36
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Cool project and a serious adventure! When someone said that you were planning a Sooty Tern/ Scamp mashup I didn't believe them, but here it is!

  2. #37
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    I think I'll be ordering plans, when available thanks John

  3. #38
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    Cool project and a serious adventure! When someone said that you were planning a Sooty Tern/ Scamp mashup I didn't believe them, but here it is!
    Did you mean to say Walkabout/SCAMP mashup?

    Sail & Adventure™ (with oars)

  4. #39
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirc View Post
    I think I'll be ordering plans, when available thanks John
    Me too!

  5. #40
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    John

    This is all looking really exciting! Just a thought from my experience of beaching my Walkabout. If there's a bit of surf the wet stuff can could into the cockpit through the tunnel. It doesn't always happen and I think it's worst when the beach is steep so the boat doesn't get so far up the beach. Getting the water out with more coming in is hard, and the extra weight makes pulling the boat up impossible single handed without tackle.

    The steering tunnel set up, with a slave tiller pivoting on the mizzen is very elegant, but this is a drawback (compromise?). I was planning some kind of canvas barrier or experimenting with a push pull tiller, but I got distracted with my new Drake rowboat.

    This problem isn't an issue most of the time, but when it does happen, it's a pain.

    Perhaps you see a way to adapt the steering set up in this new design to avoid it?

    If I hadn't sworn never to build another boat…

    But does inspire me to get out in my Walkabout more!


    Osbert
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  6. #41
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Thanks for posting those, that makes the ancestry of Long Steps very clear. SCAMPs cockpit and shelter layout has been so successful that I wanted to include it in a bigger boat, one very experienced sailor of a stretch Walkabout told me that his boat was the fastest monohull that he'd ever sailed, so I figured that I"d put the two together .

    John Welsford
    A reminder and some picture inspiration for John and Osbert here enjoying his Walkabout more than anybody ought to. Clear illustration of Walkabout's speed, in the new category "Fast Sail & Oar"


    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 10-24-2015 at 03:27 AM.

  7. #42
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    John, even if this is 60:40 sail:row boat, isn't the veranda going to create a lot of unnecessary windage? I'm wondering if you considered some sort of folding canvas cuddy? Didn't someone do that on stretched Walkabout?

    The thought came to me yesterday as I was rowing upwind in squall yesterday!

    Also, I can't tell from the drawing, but is that a swinging offcentreboard or a daggerboard?


    Osbert
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    I thought that stretched Walkabout with the folding cuddy was a good all round compromise.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    I think the enclosed volume in the forward part of the verandah is intended to help with self-righting tendencies, isn't it? It's a compromise trading windage for comfort and hopefully increased safety, right?

    This boat seems to me to be checking many of the right boxes for making a sail and oar boat more blue-watery. I look forward to seeing how it all goes.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Something I've noticed from rowing my SCAMP in high wind is that the need to row usually has you rowing against the wind with the mast stored in which case the cuddy does shed the wind nicely and it also keeps you comfortably out of the weather. On all other points of sail you'd be sailing (where space allows). The yawl rig also provides for several options for setting sail in high wind conditions. Seems important to me in rowing in heavy air is the provision to easily strike the mast and Long Steps has that. I also dare to mention that if you had a mast that stored nicely out of the way along the gunwale of the boat, that might be a good feature as well.
    Last edited by kenjamin; 10-25-2015 at 07:58 AM.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    The folding cuddy on my stretched Walkabout also seems to add little windage rowing directly upwind. It blocks me (a lot of the windage anyway). Off the wind, it adds a lot and increases the tendency to turn sideways to the wind. Then it gets folded.

    John - can you say more about the self draining cockpit - I cannot really see on the drawing, is there a raised floor above waterline across the whole bottom? If water comes in, where does it go and how does it get out? Does that mean the rowers feet are also raised, or is there a footwell?

    Thanks - Rick

  12. #47
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Shelter is one aspect of the little “cabin” and “veranda”. On multi day voyages “exposure” can seriously degrade a persons phyical and mental abilities, affecting both the quality of the decisions made and the ability to carry out those decisions.
    Even the simplest form of shelter much reduces this effect and of course the risk implicit in extreme fatigue and poor decisions. So, the “veranda”, being enclosed on its forward face, two sides, roof and cockpit floor gives good shelter when the boat is sitting head to wind either with mizzen sheeted in or with the sea anchor deployed.
    It is possible to cook in there as well, there is space and shelter from wind, hot food or beverages being another factor in keeping the skipper in good shape.

    I envisage using a “bivysack” type sleeping bag cover, a good quality sleeping bag and a self inflating air mattress, and sleeping head and shoulders up under the veranda and feet stretched out down the cockpit trench that being clear of course because the centerboard is offset. All of the bedding and bivy sack will be stored rolled together inside a drybag which straps under the gunwale inside the veranda. Note that there is to be two safety straps which will clip across from one seat front to the next so if the boat is rolled while the bed is occupied, the bunk and occupant will be retained within the cockpit trench. Yes they are quick release clips.

    Bouyancy, that forward section of the “cabin” together with the enclosed areas at bow and stern makes the boat float very high if inverted, the cabin floating it high enough to keep the gunwales amidships clear of the water, the boat will sit at an angle being much less stable upside down than most boats, and only needing a moderate force to roll her back.
    That also prevents the boat from “sucking down”, that is expelling air from the area underneath which can make it very difficult to roll her back.
    I’ve spent a lot of time working out the bouyancy volumes and positions, this is quite a big boat for one person to right after a rollover or capsize, its going to be me that has to do it, and probably in open water with no possibility of assistance so I’ve been careful to get it as right as I can.

    Ricks post asked about the self draining cockpit floor. Its about 2inches above the waterline, and if you look at the drawing you can see the cross hatched area which indicates the water ballast tank, the top of that is the cockpit floor which runs from the bulkhead halfway back in the “cabin” back to B#6. That’s almost 8 ft.The side seat tops are 230mm above that, and the rowing seat will be supported between the seat fronts, with cleats at floor level to take a footrest for the rowers feet.
    The area aft of that to B#8 at the forward end of the after deck is open apart from floorboards, it will have a pair of venturi bailers plus a big bilge pump.

    Osbert, yes that’s swinging offcenterboard, same system that SCAMP has. Being quite a bit deeper in the body than Walkabout there is room to completey house the ‘board and its lifting tackle within the seat front.

    I do envisage having a simple tent, one which can be rigged or struck at sea, if I have to sit out some lousy weather I can be quite comfortable sitting on my beanbag up under the veranda with the tent keeping the boat dry back as far as the end of the cockpit floor, even if it rains all day and night its not going to fill the after section enough to run back in, and I can go aft and pump it now and again.

    I have rowed a 24 ft ocean crossing rowing boat, it was intended as a singlehander for a 3000 mile crossing, and was a lot bigger and heavier than Long Steps. It was easy enough to maintain 3 knots in it once it was moving, and while I don’t expect to have to pull “L S” for hours on end, the prospect of rowing her far enough up an estuary to get to a nice sheltered anchorage, or into a marina that forbids sailing therein, does not dismay me at all.

    Just a general comment, long periods on board a small boat can feel very cramped very quickly, so there is much attention paid here to providing a variety of position when sailing. There are 8 distinct seating or standing positions from which to helm, all sufficiently different to rest cramped sets of muscles or unbend a sore back.
    That plus I'd expect to be able to get her trimmed to self steer on some points of sail so I can go and light up the gimballed "JetBoil" mounted up there under the 'veranda", get out of the wind for a while, and relax in my beanbag. That latter by the way is the kind sold as a bed for large dogs, its just right for this, wont be damaged by being wet, and is the right size for the boat.

    Long Steps is a particular set of compromises, coastal cruising in many parts of New Zealand involves long stretches of coast with little or no possibility of sheltered anchoring, so this boat is intended to be one in which it is possible to sit out there offshore and wait for more clement weather, or a tidal gate to become favourable, and to be able to row well enough to get in and out of tight spaces when conditions mitigate against sail.

    Otherwise, I’ll sail.

    John Welsford
    Last edited by john welsford; 10-25-2015 at 05:35 PM.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    And some people just see lines on paper without realising the thought behind them. Should be a cracker.

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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    A question on the rudder: are the cheeks immersed to aid rowing, as on Walkabout? To be honest I have not found this to be of use, and the roiling it leaves in the wake makes me think that it is adding too much drag (tho it does not really seem any slower). Also, the angle as drawn looks like it might catch weed.

    Thumbs up for a jetboil under the veranda (this was my test with an old sheet for fabric).


  15. #50
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    Looks like fun. Your blog lists the boat's vitals at 18ft 6in x 5 ft 5in x 460 lbs. That's a big boat. Interesting. Just curious, but what is the displacement? Are you over 900lbs yet?

    Like Eric, I'm also intrigued by the center aisle and offset centerboard. I think that setup would go well within a Hvalsoe 18.
    Last edited by Yeadon; 10-25-2015 at 10:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    I expect her take off weight with a weeks stores, all safety equipment, 2 good sized anchors and 100m of warp plus some chain, 60 AH of battery plus the likes of solar panel, radio, one person etc to be around 1050 lbs, but that includes 275 lbs of water ballast. If I was expecting to row any distance I'd pump the ballast tank out.
    That center footwell and offset board works really well on both Walkabout and SCAMP. Better on the little fat one as she has the raised cockpit floor with pump wells to accumulate water, Long Steps is a development of that with storage, bouyancy and ballast tank underneath the raised floor.

    An incidental, there was a thread running recently on side tank bouyancy. I use those in a lot of my designs, and as long as I am careful not to put so much bouyancy along there, and as long as I have enough high up bouyancy in the ends of the boat I find that the boats are able to be righted ok, and they come up with a lot less water in them than otherwise.

    John Welsford


    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Looks like fun. Your blog lists the boat's vitals at 18ft 6in x 5 ft 5in x 460 lbs. That's a big boat. Interesting. Just curious, but what is the displacement? Are you over 900lbs yet?

    Like Eric, I'm also intrigued by the center aisle and offset centerboard. I think that setup would go well within a Hvalsoe 18.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    A question on the rudder: are the cheeks immersed to aid rowing, as on Walkabout? To be honest I have not found this to be of use, and the roiling it leaves in the wake makes me think that it is adding too much drag (tho it does not really seem any slower). Also, the angle as drawn looks like it might catch weed.

    Thumbs up for a jetboil under the veranda (this was my test with an old sheet for fabric).


    I really admire your craftsmanship Rick, I'm usually in much too much of a hurry to do that.

    John Welsford, for whom boatbuilding is oft something that has to be done between drawing whats in his mind and getting it out there on the water to see if it works.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    First I am curious about something, how does the jet boil hold up in a salt water environment? I know them from mountaineering, salt water and salt air is so unforgiving.

    Back to boats - first whispers I heard of this project I figured John was drawing an enlarged Walkabout with a raised sole. The shelter is an interesting surprise. The part of the design brief that I think makes the shelter almost mandatory is the 'blue water' bit, actually standing offshore overnight. In many other situations the shelter will be a boon, though I don't think essential for night to night gunkholing. But I understand being comfortable, whether you are beach cruising or standing off. I've pondered how a shelter can work with other aspects of transitional sail and oar that are familiar to me. Based on a couple of outings with the 18, a carbon spar half the weight or less of a birdsmouth
    would make the extra bit of lift to a shelter top, even with the angled drop, far more palatable. I can imagine that the bracing position against the shelter and side benches, and even a clear aisle, does help. My theory thus far dropping a lug sail bundle is to use a high foredeck, while still below the sheerline, as kind of a well to catch the whole mess.
    No lazyjacks. I would think the shelter makes this momentary operation a little more awkward. Ok, so you get a hold of things before sail and spars slide into the drink. Not a big deal. Even with a foredeck well, things occasionally slide into the drink.

    John with a 140 odd square feet, how long is your mainmast? Tim's spar is roughly 17 feet in length. It does fit within the length of the hull, just off center. That is with no deck or shelter impediments. We often set the spar out over the stem and tuck it under the main thwart. The center aisle seems a game changer in several ways. So the question is settled - the off center board does not penalize performance . . . ? It is such a different use of space. Maybe I will mock up a center aisle in the next hull. Would love to test drive this sort of arrangement. By the way, how do you prefer to stash your ground gear with this layout?

    A very well thought out project as usual John. Thank you for discussing it with all of us. I can tell you it's got me thinking. I mean only to be inquisitive, not critical.
    Eric

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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    On the jetboil, my built-in igniter has failed so many times that I just use a separate lighter. Had not occurred to me before - maybe due to salt? Otherwise it is fine.

    I know you are looking for John's input, but my thoughts after installing the cuddy are that the ability to stand and brace securely plus duck under out of the elements make an open dinghy seem a much bigger boat.

    Rick

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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    On the jetboil, my built-in igniter has failed so many times that I just use a separate lighter. Had not occurred to me before - maybe due to salt? Otherwise it is fine.
    I've had the same problem just climbing or sailing on freshwater--the igniter is problematic. Also, I've never found a Jetboil to be good for anything but boiling water--no real simmer setting. Perhaps some of the fancy attachments you can get for it solves that problem, though. I just have the basic stove, and a little adapter to be able to set a normal small backpacking cooking pot on the burner.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    Jagular Goes Everywhere: (mis)Adventures in a $300 Sailboat. Book release November 2014.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    I have used a jet boil for over 5 years on my boat with no problem with the igniter. It is only used to boil water for coffee and only takes a minute to do so. I use a butane single burner for cooking.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Thanks
    Sometimes I'll test mystery metal fittings or hardware with a magnet.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    it wont be the only means of cooking on board, I'll be carrying a single burner butane cooker mounted in a small galley box but dont expect to do much real cooking at sea unless the weather is being helpful. Thats why I've thoughts of taking a gimballed jetboil ( or similar) and although its not a "cooker" it will work for soups or rice, mugs of tea or even canned stew.

    One of my customers did a singlehanded transAtlantic crossing with no means of cooking, lived on cold water and muesli bars for the entire voyage, but then, he trained for it by doing an ultramarathon, ( 100 km) run.
    I'm not that tough.

    John Welsford



    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I've had the same problem just climbing or sailing on freshwater--the igniter is problematic. Also, I've never found a Jetboil to be good for anything but boiling water--no real simmer setting. Perhaps some of the fancy attachments you can get for it solves that problem, though. I just have the basic stove, and a little adapter to be able to set a normal small backpacking cooking pot on the burner.

    Tom
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    Thanks
    Sometimes I'll test mystery metal fittings or hardware with a magnet.

    Me too, dont the guys in the yotshop get tetchy when your magnet pulls up a whole heap of screws from the "stainless steel" bin.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    As I have aged, I have noticed that my interest and abilities in rowing are still quite strong. My balance, however, has really gone downhill. I can not manage well in a tippy open boat with nothing to grab on to. Raising and lowering a mast on the water would be very difficult for me. The hard “veranda” weather shield and a spot to lean against, or hold onto while standing is my favorite aspect that was borrowed from SCAMP.

    Could a “LONG STEPS” be built without a mainsail at all?
    A simple stayed mast set up on the launch ramp, and then, sailing with a roller furling large jib/genoa and mizzen only? No boom. No yard. No “bundle” to store. This sure would make life easy for me. I could leave the outboard at home and row out to my favorite fishing grounds. Stand up while casting with no clutter. With favorable winds I could sail home with my grand daughter in style, and safety. My old dog would feel right at home under the veranda. If we all got slammed by a freak gust of wind...and, went into the drink, I would appreciate the water ballast, and the high floatation imbedded into the “veranda”.
    I think this design is something special, and, perhaps adaptable to many applications.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Yes, that could be done, but the mast would have to come aft to keep the rig balanced. I have not drawn it to check but dont think it would be a problem to step the mast on top of B#3, being stayed it could be in a tabernacle rather than through the cabin top down to a step on the boats bottom.

    John Welsford


    Quote Originally Posted by Gillig View Post
    As I have aged, I have noticed that my interest and abilities in rowing are still quite strong. My balance, however, has really gone downhill. I can not manage well in a tippy open boat with nothing to grab on to. Raising and lowering a mast on the water would be very difficult for me. The hard “veranda” weather shield and a spot to lean against, or hold onto while standing is my favorite aspect that was borrowed from SCAMP.

    Could a “LONG STEPS” be built without a mainsail at all?
    A simple stayed mast set up on the launch ramp, and then, sailing with a roller furling large jib/genoa and mizzen only? No boom. No yard. No “bundle” to store. This sure would make life easy for me. I could leave the outboard at home and row out to my favorite fishing grounds. Stand up while casting with no clutter. With favorable winds I could sail home with my grand daughter in style, and safety. My old dog would feel right at home under the veranda. If we all got slammed by a freak gust of wind...and, went into the drink, I would appreciate the water ballast, and the high floatation imbedded into the “veranda”.
    I think this design is something special, and, perhaps adaptable to many applications.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Yes, that could be done, but the mast would have to come aft to keep the rig balanced. I have not drawn it to check but dont think it would be a problem to step the mast on top of B#3, being stayed it could be in a tabernacle rather than through the cabin top down to a step on the boats bottom.
    John Welsford
    Thank you for that!

    These two young lads circumnavigated Ireland in an 18' open boat last summer.

    From the website:
    http://afloat.ie/item/29540-young-sa...ascombe-lugger

    "Small boat, big sea. Approaching the end of her great cruise, in order to enter the harbour at Baltimore Lughnasa's rig has been reduced to the jib and jigger mizzen sailplan, which was all that could be set for much of their Ireland circuit in often strong winds."




  28. #63
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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    I wonder how similar your adventure will be to those Irish lads mentioned above? I read where the west coast of your island can be challenging. Not to mention the heave-to at night to get some sleep - Yikes! They don't call it adventure for nothing.

    Watching with great interest.

    Dan

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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    The comparison with a Drascombe Lugger is an interesting one, as it strikes me that this boat could perhaps fill a similar role (albeit in a vastly updated and faster form). While the balanced lug yawl, is a great option, I can appreciate Gillig's desire to be able to sail under jib and mizzen, when on a fishing trip and for generally knocking about, but it would also be great to have the option of sailing with 3 sails and in my case preferably without a boom, so it could be easily brailed up/taken down without much clutter underfoot. The tabernacle idea sounds very useful, but I can't see any stays on that Drascombe, would it not be a good option to do something similar here?
    Finally in the interests of heresy, the option of a small outboard would be good too.....

    Cheers,

    Adrian

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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    ^ the mizzen is free standing, but the mast does have shrouds.

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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Valley View Post
    Finally in the interests of heresy, the option of a small outboard would be good too.....

    Cheers
    Adrian
    For the purist, perhaps it would be a no, for many lesser mortals, perhaps sailing in strong local tides and flukey winds, a 2 hp outboard might help in getting a lot more use out of the boat and add to security for less experienced crew or youngsters on board.

    Could a small well fit under the tiller, there is still some width to the keel plank? An infill box could be made to ensure smooth water flow when away from shore.

    Also, a major ingress of water could quickly exit through an open outboard well.

    Might be impossible to get the well and engine to fit but would be a good option for those who would feel more confident with one.

    Swallow Yachts BayRaider 17 http://swallowyachts.com/bespoke/bay-raider-17/



    Brian

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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Judging from the capsize recovery videos, side bouyancy seems to work very well.

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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Yes there is space in there to do that. While I wont be putting an engine in mine, the need to be "back at work on Monday" is real for most people so I do understand that the ability to push home on a foul tide or in weather that precludes sailing or rowing is an advantage.

    John Welsford




    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    For the purist, perhaps it would be a no, for many lesser mortals, perhaps sailing in strong local tides and flukey winds, a 2 hp outboard might help in getting a lot more use out of the boat and add to security for less experienced crew or youngsters on board.

    Could a small well fit under the tiller, there is still some width to the keel plank? An infill box could be made to ensure smooth water flow when away from shore.

    Also, a major ingress of water could quickly exit through an open outboard well.

    Might be impossible to get the well and engine to fit but would be a good option for those who would feel more confident with one.

    Swallow Yachts BayRaider 17 http://swallowyachts.com/bespoke/bay-raider-17/



    Brian
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Thanks John, good to know there is room for a small outboard at the back of the cockpit.

    Brian

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4,992

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    This blog covers a drascombe coaster rally in my local water. Meeting at Keyhaven, crossing Christchurch Bay to Poole Harbour. I see them crossing the bay and then sailing back a few days later, often in strong winds. It just never stopped blowing this summer. Nor the summer two years ago, and three years ago and four years ago. You got, last summer was nice!

    I have often wondered why there was not a similar boat design for home boat builders. These guys are clearly having a great time. Now there is with Long Steps, a serious coastal inshore cruiser.

    http://southcoastshrimper.blogspot.c...se-2nd-to.html

    (blog title is Shrimper but it is about the Coaster)

    Brian

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