Page 1 of 7 12 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 241

Thread: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,406

    Default John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    I've been thinking of a major expedition, voyage, whatever in a specially designed sail and oar boat. I've a route in mind, a boat drawn and begun, and there seems to be a lot of interest so I've posted a pic of the working drawing and todays progress on slicing up plywood on my blog at the link below.

    http://jwboatdesigns.blogspot.co.nz.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lynden, Wa
    Posts
    3,087

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Very promising. I hope you will keep us up on the build. It's not advertising, I'm sure of it.

    bowsprit for those who like standing rigging? Will you be going balanced lug?
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    372

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Interesting John. Quite a departure from your Pilgrim which, in my understanding at least, had a similar design brief. (Please correct me if I'm off the mark with that.)

    Care to expand on the design evolution here?

    Cheers, Mikey

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sweden,Scilly Isles, Siberia
    Posts
    7,152

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Will no doubt tick a few boxes here......look forward to seeing things come together.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    12,427

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    My god I had one of those Makita 4200 Jiggies... gave it to a Carriacou chippie.I hated the beast!!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern NSW Australia
    Posts
    58,670

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    My god I had one of those Makita 4200 Jiggies... gave it to a Carriacou chippie.I hated the beast!!
    Yep, it makes the hair on the back of my neck rise.

    Evening Mikey.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    37,571

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    We are pleased <G>
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Fiddletown, on Vineyard Lane
    Posts
    3,457

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Very good looking. And the proposed voyage is going to be a great read for those of us who must watch from afar.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    I really like mine, have had several others but this big heavy simple beast is the one that I kept.
    There was a time when if you went into a boatbuilders shop that would be the jigsaw you'd find there, 30 years and they still make them.

    John Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    My god I had one of those Makita 4200 Jiggies... gave it to a Carriacou chippie.I hated the beast!!
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Utopia
    Posts
    2,758

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    I can't wait to see it materialize. I particularly like your method of assembling components. I am a tiny bit curious why you chose not to use your Pilgrim for this journey though?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    2,168

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Damned interesting John. What width aisle do you consider comfortable for a bunk?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    [QUOTE=Mikey Floyd;4688585]Interesting John. Quite a departure from your Pilgrim which, in my understanding at least, had a similar design brief. (Please correct me if I'm off the mark with that.)

    Care to expand on the design evolution here?


    They're about as different as you could get and still do a similar job. But I'd hate to row a Pilgrim any distance, I'd hate to have to beach one through a surf, they're a full sized little yacht with keel, fixed ballast, a stayed rig, all that makes a small serious coastal cruiser.
    Long Steps is much lighter, slender in comparison, will row pretty well, has shelter, can be righted singlehanded if capsized, (Pilgrim has enough ballast to do that herself from 90 degrees). Really its like comparing a Lotus 7 sports car with a big heavy four door family saloon car, in fact the latter may be about as fast in a straight line but they are for quite different purposes and have a very different feel about them.

    I'd take a Pilgrim on this voyage, but she would be reliant on harbours for shelter whereas Long Steps can be run up a beach, even through surf, she'll also heave to head to wind which will be useful when I need to get my head down for some sleep. I'd expect to be able to make her self steer on some points of sail as well whereas Pilgrim would only do that to windward.

    Different, very different.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    Damned interesting John. What width aisle do you consider comfortable for a bunk?

    For me Eric, 26 inches. But I'm wider in the shoulders than some. Note though that in Long Steps as in a SCAMP, the seats dont extend into the area up under the veranda so its much wider in there. Enough so you can sit up in there in your sleeping bag, leaning against the bulkhead with the cookstove alongside getting breakfast done. Its sheltered up in there which makes food prep in less than ideal weather much easier.
    I can cope with bad weather much more easily when I'm full of hot food or drink.

    John Welsford
    Last edited by john welsford; 10-22-2015 at 05:00 PM.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by capefox View Post
    I can't wait to see it materialize. I particularly like your method of assembling components. I am a tiny bit curious why you chose not to use your Pilgrim for this journey though?

    In part because I came into an 18 ft heavy displacement near replica of an Itchen Ferry boat, gaff sloop rigged, cabin with two bunks, straight full keel, she's a sweet little ship so I didnt need the Pilgrim. I wasn't in good shape either so I sold the frame kit, and completed the plans. There are a dozen or so of them sailing now, happy owners, they perform very well but this trip needs a different set of characteristics so a different design was needed.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Very promising. I hope you will keep us up on the build. It's not advertising, I'm sure of it.

    bowsprit for those who like standing rigging? Will you be going balanced lug?

    The main will indeed be a balanced lugsail, when I did the stability calculation she came out higher than I'd thought ( all that water ballast plus a highish prismatic c/f ) so it will be a bit bigger than shown.
    The bowsprit is to carry a light weather reaching and downwind sail, plus, being fixed rather than removeable it puts the boats length over 6m. The significance of that is that some of the less intelligent do gooders in our bureaucracy in some parts of the country has decreed that when out in boats under that length lifejackets will be worn, regardless of the boat or the conditions.
    So when I'm rowing Long Steps into a harbour in flat conditions on a stinking hot day and a volunteer harbour warden pulls me up, I can tell him to "go and bother someone else".

    No standing rigging by the way, that will be a carbon fibre mast and more than stiff enough to cope without stays.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    2,168

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    John,
    Mmm, 26 inches is about what I was thinking.
    To review the veranda idea - which I appreciate - does this essentially mean that the mast always stays up, rowing or sailing. Will you always carry your sail bundle in lazyjacks? Or perhaps is the mast in a tabernacle? If the mast does not come down, a very light weight spar with the least possible section would be at a premium. But must withstand the forces of the balanced lug.
    Eric

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    914

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    A lotus 7 v BMW m5 or Audi Rs6 both fast but in totally different ways.
    Love the new design. A great run of new designs recently Sei, sns now tbis one..
    How does he do it - genius!!

    James

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,582

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    I definitely think this is an interesting idea. The fixed "veranda" is certainly an interesting concept--though it would also seem to add the compromises of extra weight and windage. I sure look forward to finding out more, all the same.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sweden,Scilly Isles, Siberia
    Posts
    7,152

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    I definitely think this is an interesting idea. The fixed "veranda" is certainly an interesting concept--though it would also seem to add the compromises of extra weight and windage. I sure look forward to finding out more, all the same.
    If the veranda is part of the design concept to suit the boats intended purpose, i dont see that as being compromise, rather it serves an important part.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Fairfield, CA
    Posts
    1,069

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Note though that in Long Steps as in a SCAMP, the seats dont extend into area up under the veranda so its much wider in there. Enough so you can sit up in there in your sleeping bag, leaning against the bulkhead with the cookstove alongside getting breakfast done. Its sheltered up in there which makes food prep in less than idea weather much easier.
    I can cope with bad weather much more easily when I'm full of hot food or drink.

    John Welsford
    The side seats on Walkabout extend all the way to the bulkhead at the forward edge of the cockpit. No-one ever sits there, and now I've made a folding "veranda" I keep thinking it would be better to cut back the seats and have more covered space to lounge in. Any advice on that, John?

    Rick

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Utopia
    Posts
    2,758

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Will we be able to buy plans of it in the future?

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    If you look really closely at the rather poor pic of the working drawing, you should see a line running from the base of the mast 8in above the waterline behind B#2 . Thats the after edge of the mast box and allows the mainmast to come back far enough to make it possible to lift it out while at sea, or drop it back.
    The mast then stows along the inner edge of the side seat which leaves the rowing station clear. Mainmast, sail and spars bundled up on one side, mizzen on the other.
    I'd hope not to have to do that too frequently, I'd characterise this boat as a 60 sail 40% row rather than a 50/50.
    The lightweight carbon mast and spars makes this much easier, we're talking about 3 kg for the mast rigged and strong enough to pick the boat up by if you were strong enough to do that.
    Much cheaper than you'd think by the way.

    John Welsford


    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    John,
    Mmm, 26 inches is about what I was thinking.
    To review the veranda idea - which I appreciate - does this essentially mean that the mast always stays up, rowing or sailing. Will you always carry your sail bundle in lazyjacks? Or perhaps is the mast in a tabernacle? If the mast does not come down, a very light weight spar with the least possible section would be at a premium. But must withstand the forces of the balanced lug.
    Eric
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    The side seats on Walkabout extend all the way to the bulkhead at the forward edge of the cockpit. No-one ever sits there, and now I've made a folding "veranda" I keep thinking it would be better to cut back the seats and have more covered space to lounge in. Any advice on that, John?

    Rick
    Hi Rick.
    The initial idea was to reduce the amount of water retained in a capsize and righting, in your case where you are primarily rowing thats not an issue.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by capefox View Post
    Will we be able to buy plans of it in the future?

    Yes, but give me a while to complete and proof the plans .
    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,996

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    So you think the durability of a carbon fiber mast is good enough for a cruising boat? I guess you could over design and build it and still be light.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Absolutely Kevin, I'e been using rolled carbon fibre tube for 16 years now, no failures, not even surface stress checking.
    They do though need to be either way overdesigned, or alternatively accurately engineered which involves some interesting calculations as to loadings and how they are generated. I tend to try and work out the second, then add a big fudge factor to get the first.
    That said those tubes are unbelievably strong for their weight so even when over engineered the weight advantage is considerable.
    An example is my little 18 ft gaff sloop, she's a heavy little beast at about 1200 kg, has a big sail area and her Douglas Fir birdsmouth mast weighed in at 19.4 kg, and as the leverages are all the wrong way it was a really big heave to stand it up, but the carbon fibre one weighs a tad under 9 kg and I can push it up with one hand.
    Its stiffer, has stood the test of some very heavy weather sailing and the difference made by the much lower weight of both mast and gaff being carbon fibre is very noticeable when sailing her.

    John Welsford


    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    So you think the durability of a carbon fiber mast is good enough for a cruising boat? I guess you could over design and build it and still be light.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Victoria, BC, Canada
    Posts
    850

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    John,

    I, too, am intrigued with this design. 145 ft2 of sail area seems like lot for a boat this size and weight. Does that include the reacher/spinnaker? How much water ballast do you reckon on?
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Ely / Boundary waters canoe area wilderness
    Posts
    131

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Thanks for taking us along !
    editor sought , untill found i apologize for the grammer and spelling

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Remember that SCAMP, all of 12 ft long, carries 100 sq ft of sail, and carries it well. 145 sq ft is full sail at 14 knots of wind theoretically, easing a sheet or letting the top of the sail twist off a little will allow it to sail through gusts up to around 20.
    But also remember that cruisers are becalmed a lot more often than they are overpowered by high winds, and its easy to reef but hard to add more sail. That little reacher is an "extra" that will be made of spinnaker cloth, and is for close reaching around to straight downwind.
    Her ballast is around 275 lbs of water in a big tank under the self draining cockpit floor alongside the offcentercase.
    I doubt very much that I'd be able to pull her over on her side if I tried. Another comparison with SCAMP, a 180 lb man can only just get one of those over by standing on the rail, leaning right back and pulling on the sail. Long Steps is not only more stable because of her extra length but has a great deal more ballast.

    John Welsford


    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    John,

    I, too, am intrigued with this design. 145 ft2 of sail area seems like lot for a boat this size and weight. Does that include the reacher/spinnaker? How much water ballast do you reckon on?
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    105

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    This thread is seriously lacking in the "picture" department.

    I thought it would be fun to add some pics of the two boats that seem to be the forerunners to “Long Steps”.


    [Side note: a “SCAMP/WALKABOUT” hybrid boat could have been named “SCOUT”...(sigh)..]








  31. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4,953

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    If you look really closely at the rather poor pic of the working drawing, you should see a line running from the base of the mast 8in above the waterline behind B#2 . Thats the after edge of the mast box and allows the mainmast to come back far enough to make it possible to lift it out while at sea, or drop it back
    John Welsford
    Thanks for that John, I had been wondering what that backwards angled line was from the mast base. Will make a huge difference to ease of placing the mast. Carbon spars work so well with lug rigs. Just so light and easy to use, raise and they don't even hurst when they fall on your head. I also felt by sealing mine, no drilled holes anywhere, that they would add a fair amount of floatation if the boat was on her side, and help prevent inversion.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington
    Posts
    2,168

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Now I see the mast rake line. I think that is practical only with your ultralight carbon spar. Now I am interested more than ever in carbon spars.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Just to explain. If its neccessary to get the mainmast down at sea, the procedure is as follows.
    Heave to with the mizzen sheeted in to hold her head to wind. stand with a foot in the corner each side of the cockpit trench and lean forward on the after edge of the "cabin" top. This means that one is braced and supported at three points.
    Drop the main, undo the boom parrel, downhaul and halyard, roll the mainsail up around the boom, put a tie on it and lay it on the side seat.
    Lift the mast box cap out to free the mast, ease the mast back and lift it out laying it backward as it comes out, then slide it back until the foot can be dropped into the cockpit, slide it forward into the "cabin" and lay it down. The head of the mast will be alongside the mizzen and a shockcord around it from one of the several securing points under the coaming will secure it.
    Note the bit about how the "veranda" after edge and the angles in the cockpit trench are used to provide three point support and bracing when standing, this is another SCAMP trick and makes it practical to stand to reef the main or work on the mast.
    In a normal open boat that would be "dont try this at home" but works well in this layout.

    But being honest, I dont think that pulling the mast at sea is going to happen very often if at all, I see this as a sailboat that can be rowed rather than a rowboat that can be sailed.

    Digressing, I was out on the river in SEI late last night, perfect moonlit night, beautiful.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,406

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gillig View Post
    This thread is seriously lacking in the "picture" department.

    I thought it would be fun to add some pics of the two boats that seem to be the forerunners to “Long Steps”.


    [Side note: a “SCAMP/WALKABOUT” hybrid boat could have been named “SCOUT”...(sigh)..]








    Thanks for posting those, that makes the ancestry of Long Steps very clear. SCAMPs cockpit and shelter layout has been so successful that I wanted to include it in a bigger boat, one very experienced sailor of a stretch Walkabout told me that his boat was the fastest monohull that he'd ever sailed, so I figured that I"d put the two together .

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    76,198

    Default Re: John Welsford, Long Steps design, cross post.

    Very interesting design spec. Thanks for posting it here. You're a gem to this forum Mr. Welsford.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •