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Thread: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    Don't forget to register with the patent office. Sorry, couldn't resist.
    http://www.uspto.gov/trademark
    I think he has to use it in commerce to be able to claim it. Sail & Oar is a descriptive mark, so it doesn't have the 'artsy' thing going.

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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    Actually Leather includes 21 different boats in this book as chapters and shows illustrations and descriptions of many others, ranging from the 12' Esmeralda dinghy, the Albert Strange canoe yawl Cherub II at 20', an 18' keelboat, several Aeolus boats, some 30' racing gigs, a naval cutter, sailing canoes and Norfolk punts.
    Ah, so THAT'S why they always say not to judge a book by its cover! I stand corrected.

    As for this:

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1;[/COLOR
    4674378]Have it your way Tom. But that boat looks closer to 60/40 towards the sail side to me.
    I pretty much agree, it's a little biased toward sailing vs. rowing. But the boundaries of "sail and oar" are a bit fuzzy in my mind, as long as the spirit of the thing (MORE fuzziness!) seems to fit. I guess I tend to see a 60/40 boat to be close enough to a 50/50 boat that I'd still call it sail and oar as long as there's no engine aboard.

    None of which opinions can be defended by anything other than "It feels right to me." Kind of reminds me of the old claim (John Gardner?) that says you can build a good boat just by eye--but it REALLY matters who is doing the looking. Which makes me wonder if:

    Maybe "sail and oar" is a category that those of us who do a lot of that kind of sailing and cruising (i.e. in engineless 50/50-ish boats, especially cruising) define more rigidly than those who don't? Maybe we make distinctions that matter to ourselves (having had lots of experience with this particular sub-culture of sailing) while mattering far less to others who take a broader view?

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  3. #73
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    have you heard the term Sail & Oar other than this forum?

    I think I first came across the term in WB mag mabey an early article about Raid Scotland? or mabey before then. It's a great term, self explanitory... but in 40 years of being around and on the water in olde Newengland using and enjoying all our forms of traditional craft Id never heard the term. boats of the S&O type are refered to by their type name (peapod, dory, banks;Swampscott, skiff, doryskiff, etc.) and then if they are S and o they are specified as having a sail rig or a sail rig and centerboard... the types are all known for their nice rowing and excelent load carrying and seakeeping capabilities so no need to specify the Oar bit.

    I also hadnt come across a Faering untill I attended the SRR at WB! then they were every where, I still hardly ever come across theme here on the coast, it's usually Swamscotts, Banks dorys or whitehalls.
    also never heard the term used by any old timers in the 7+ yrs I spent in 2 olde Newengland dory shops...
    Is Leather's book the earliest example of it as a term?

    Sail & Oar PAT.PEND.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    John Leather's book is about small craft, some sailboats, some rowboats and some that do a bit of both.
    Steve

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  5. #75
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    also never heard the term used by any old timers in the 7+ yrs I spent in 2 olde Newengland dory shops...
    Is Leather's book the earliest example of it as a term?
    Nope. It was used at least as early as 1933 to describe Yorkshire's North Sea fishing fleet before steam power took over:

    http://lodestarbooks.com/product/sail-and-oar/

    But the earliest I've seen it used in more of a modern/recreational context is Francois Vivier's report of the voile-aviron magazine in the early 1980s:

    http://www.vivierboats.com/en/sail-and-oar/

    Tom
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  6. #76
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Ok interesting, so in this 1933 book much like Leathers' book the term S&O is a direct reference to the means of propulsion of the boats that happen to be featured in the book... not a reference to a particular type or class of boat?

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Vivier uses the French term both for a type of boat, and for a philosophy of boating:

    (1) Here “voile-aviron” means “a sail-oar”, a boat designed to function well under both sail and oar. As far as I know, English has no equivalent term. Perhaps one should be invented.
    (2) Here “voile-aviron” means a particular boating philosophy, and we could use the term “sail and oar”.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Sail and oar - when the absolute need to depart or arrive on someone else's timetable.



    In in moden times the practice is most facilitated with a cell phone call from a spouse.
    Without friends none of this is possible.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    Ok interesting, so in this 1933 book much like Leathers' book the term S&O is a direct reference to the means of propulsion of the boats that happen to be featured in the book... not a reference to a particular type or class of boat?
    Yep, they are two separate things, I'd argue. The "old time" sail and oar vs. the new, 1980s style recreational sail and oar. It's pretty clear that the term didn't catch on widely until the more modern recreational usage (after all, not many of us knew it was used as early as 1933), so it seems reasonable to see the more modern usage as the "correct" one. After all, not many people in 2015 would argue that "gay" means "happy and carefree" although that would have been a good definition in the Victorian era.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Words and phrases can have more than one meaning. "Happy and carefree" is still a valid meaning/definition for "gay."

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Nice to see the Leather book posted.
    'cranky-pants' is funny, 'sub optimal' is wearing a little thin, the trademark bit is cute.

    I designed and built my first combination boat for a client in 1980. It was for rowing and sailing. I absorbed all the standard references at the time - Gardner, Chapelle, Culler, Simmons, Leather and others. A few texts on yacht design. The designer impulse is a little different than that of curator or historian. Takes both to make the world go round.

    The thing about that first boat, the 13, is that it was for a big heavy guy. In fact if it had been designed merely for rowing, it would have come out about the same. Nice pretty little comfortable boat, reasonably easy to step in and out of, for a big guy, or anybody else for that matter. At 13' not so much a pulling boat, just a nice rowboat. Fine ends, substancial midsection. That probably cast the die for me in terms of incoorporating 'healthy' (my term) midsections in any kind of boat. Obviously this excludes very specialized animals like semi circular rowing shells with no form stability. Other elements like the transom became a signature of sorts with that first project.

    The more interesting question to me, given a comfortable midsection, is how to otherwise distribute the hull volume. Numbers are available, in this case pertaining to displacement speeds, but I tend to go more by sight and feel than those numbers. Where is crew going to be parked in this boat? A single rower will be toward midships, a single sailor will want to be able to lounge further aft. That is a little bit of a juggling act. Planting an outboard and/or solo operator at the transom is not so much the balance I am looking for in a dedicated sail and oar boat. Somewhat different parameters, somewhat different mission.

    'Weight' and 'quickness' are fuzzy terms. A plank on frame HV16 weighs 250 lbs. It is responsive, feels quick and light compared to bigger boats. There is at least the illusion of speed in various conditions. While similar in some obvious ways, the HV18 has much more volume, both because of principal dimensions and because of hull form. It has this volume first and foremost, to make a more habitable craft. We spend long periods of time in our little boats, and we sleep in them. That volume comes at the cost of among other things, wetted area and skin friction. Ply lap hull #1 is certainly not light by my standards, 400lbs give or take, with some additional ballast to put her down at the design displacement. More sail area to move that wetted surface. It is a cascade effect begun with personal space, gnashing teeth over sail vs oar comes afterwards. There is a cost for this personal space. Worth it to some, not to others. The 18 has even more form stability than the 16, and some ballast to boot. It feels quite different. Very solid and steady with markedly less pitching and rolling than the lighter and smaller 16. Certainly it feels different rowing. It is a significant adjustment. It feels heavy if you pull hard, the trick is to get the boat up to speed, which happens quickly, and let momentum do its work. It is possible for a fit individual to row such a boat for long stretches. The 18 seems to row at about the same speed as the 16 - but the 18 rows with so little fuss, just as it sails. Sea state, small or moderate chop, has far less effect on the the 18. It simply carries on. So which operator will be less exhausted over a long day, which boat will make more or less ground, the heavier or the lighter? Interesting question. I see a conjunction of elements serving all purposes - general comfort, rowing, and sailing.

    The other weekend with both a 16 and 18 on the water - the 18 seemed to ghost along very well. Tim's ghosting kept up with a lot of my rowing.
    Last edited by Eric Hvalsoe; 10-09-2015 at 02:39 PM.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    I prefer to row fixed seat rather than sliders, so have done a lot of experimentation around size, weight and proportions. I've found that a waterline length of around 17 ft is where the crossover between longer waterline for low wavemaking resistance and more resistance from increased wetted area is.
    That of course is assuming a boat of "normal" proportions.
    At about that size there are considerable gains in sailing performance as well, that plus the ability to handle well in a sea is much improved. Every boat has a natural period of pitch, and around 13 and 14 ft in a harbour chop can be hard work as it coincides with the wave frequency when sailing to windward, so that extra little bit of length can make a much bigger difference than you'd expect.

    John Welsford

    Eric, your boats are stunners! Beautiful and from all accounts great performers.

    JW
    Last edited by john welsford; 10-10-2015 at 01:12 AM.
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  13. #83
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    I prefer to row fixed seat rather than sliders, so have done a lot of experimentation around size, weight and proportions. I've found that a waterline length of around 17 ft is where the crossover between longer waterline for low wavemaking resistance and more resistance from increased wetted area.
    That of course is assuming a boat of "normal" proportions.
    At about that size there are considerable gains in sailing performance as well, that plus the ability to handle well in a sea is much improved. Every boat has a natural period of pitch, and around 13 and 14 ft in a harbour chop can be hard work as it coincides with the wave frequency when sailing to windward, so that extra little bit of length can make a much bigger difference than you'd expect.

    John Welsford

    Eric, your boats are stunners! Beautiful and from all accounts great performers.

    JW
    John,
    That is great information. What I so admire is your combination of technical expertise and practical experience, and the down to earth way you communicate this knowledge. When other NA's are at it, you can be the best to read, getting things back on track for us fans of small craft. I defer to your numbers. If I've made some other contributions along the way, all to the good. I reviewed quite a bit of data and theory then pretty much went with my gut on the last hull design. Certainly wrestled with length. The difference in behavior between even the 16 and 18 is a little startling to me.
    Cheers,
    Eric
    Last edited by Eric Hvalsoe; 10-09-2015 at 04:39 PM.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Thanks for that Eric, we'll hopefully find ourselves in the same place at the same time sometime and have the time to sit and chat.

    John Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    John,
    That is great information. What I so admire is your combination of technical expertise and practical experience, and the down to earth way you communicate this knowledge. When other NA's are at it, you can be the best to read, getting things back on track for us fans of small craft. I defer to your numbers. If I've made some other contributions along the way, all to the good. I reviewed quite a bit of data and theory then pretty much went with my gut on the last hull design. Certainly wrestled with length. The difference in behavior between even the 16 and 18 is a little startling to me.
    Cheers,
    Eric
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Big thanks to John and Eric. I, for one, hugely appreciate what you two gentlemen bring to the small boat world.

    I would love to just sit and listen to you guys talk boats.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

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  16. #86
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Come to Port Townsend next September, the designers forum is really fun but be at the door early, its usually standing room only.

    John Welsford


    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Big thanks to John and Eric. I, for one, hugely appreciate what you two gentlemen bring to the small boat world.

    I would love to just sit and listen to you guys talk boats.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    "Sail & Oar" boats seem well suited to sedentary individuals looking for exercise at the expense of sailing performance. The physically fit may be more inclined to choose a sport boat for the thrill of sailing. An AWOL comes to mind. Then we have the comfort camp cruiser crowd that prefers amenities above all else. A Marsh Cat is an example of that. There are multiple choices in each of the three categories but there are striking difference between each category.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    John your recommendation of 17 foot as a sweet spot for a row boat is very interesting . L. Francis Herreshoff in "The Common Sense of Yacht Design " makes a similar recommendation for a pleasure row boat " of less than 100 pounds weight and about 17 feet long" .

    Our laws exempt unpowered boats 16 ft.or less from some legal requirements ,so that has come to have some significance as a max length , probably to the detriment of our rowing fleet.

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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    "Sail & Oar" boats seem well suited to sedentary individuals looking for exercise at the expense of sailing performance.
    Yep. Just like backpacking and climbing and kayaking and mountain biking (and road biking for that matter) and marathon swimming and triathlons and other non-motorized sports are almost completely dominated by sedentary individuals. You've nailed it again, KMac!

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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Tom - Kmac is just lonely because his troll-buddy Ossipoff has gone away. He is reaching out for some attention here.

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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    There's probably no need to respond to patently ridiculous statements that are merely intended to stir up dissension, my friends. I sincerely doubt anyone is being fooled. I think the best course may very well be just to starve the fire of oxygen, and it'll never be able to do more than sputter and fume.

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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    ^ That's it. Don't feed him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    Tom - Kmac is just lonely because his troll-buddy Ossipoff has gone away. He is reaching out for some attention here.
    Yes, we will all miss him.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Perhaps a tape measure made of stretchy material would be in order?
    John Welsford
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Perkins View Post
    John your recommendation of 17 foot as a sweet spot for a row boat is very interesting . L. Francis Herreshoff in "The Common Sense of Yacht Design " makes a similar recommendation for a pleasure row boat " of less than 100 pounds weight and about 17 feet long" .

    Our laws exempt unpowered boats 16 ft.or less from some legal requirements ,so that has come to have some significance as a max length , probably to the detriment of our rowing fleet.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    "Sail & Oar" boats seem well suited to sedentary individuals looking for exercise at the expense of sailing performance. The physically fit may be more inclined to choose a sport boat for the thrill of sailing. An AWOL comes to mind. Then we have the comfort camp cruiser crowd that prefers amenities above all else. A Marsh Cat is an example of that. There are multiple choices in each of the three categories but there are striking difference between each category.
    Well suited to sedentary individuals? Yes, for sure. But not just them. Its not the only reason to prefer a sail and oar boat. Some of the areas that I could go cruising in would be particularly well suited to a boat that would row well, there are skeins of long narrow tidal channels here, rivers and estuaries where sailing would require tacking every few minutes for hours on end to make progress. A boat that sailed well enough to get from one rivermouth to the next across stretches of open water, then row well enough to explore the quiet and confined backwaters at the head of that river is a real treat.
    I've just built a boat for that express purpose, launched SEI yesterday and although she is still in rowing mode only we took her up the river at daybreak today, an hour out on the water watching the birds wake up and set out for their days foraging was a very nice way to begin our day.
    When I've got her rigged, I can set off downriver to the sea, and sail across to the next river, or the next.
    I'm looking forward to it.

    John Welsford
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  26. #96
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    Yes, we will all miss him.

    He's posted in the bilge, now the muck will fly!

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Yep. Just like backpacking and climbing and kayaking and mountain biking (and road biking for that matter) and marathon swimming and triathlons and other non-motorized sports are almost completely dominated by sedentary individuals. You've nailed it again, KMac!

    Tom
    I understand that not all sail and oar aficionados are sedentary but it seems that the majority around here never leave the keyboard. No offense meant.

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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    I understand that not all sail and oar aficionados are sedentary but it seems that the majority around here never leave the keyboard. No offense meant.
    Armchair captains are nothing new, and certainly not limited to any particular style of boat.

    In fact, most of them prefer motors.....
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Armchair captains are nothing new, and certainly not limited to any particular style of boat.

    In fact, most of them prefer motors.....
    Let's see the data. Or did you just pull that one out of your .............hat?

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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    I understand that not all sail and oar aficionados are sedentary but it seems that the majority around here never leave the keyboard. No offense meant.
    Thanks--I'm not offended, actually. But your idea that sedentary people prefer engineless boats and actually enjoy rowing them seemed too silly to let pass without comment. Now that I know it wasn't a claim but an attempt to slam other Forum members, well... They seem to post an awful lot of photos and videos of actual sailing and rowing adventures for people who never leave their keyboards.

    Speaking of which--got in an all-day sailing and rowing mini-adventure yesterday on Lake Superior. 80 degrees on October 11th! It doesn't often get that warm on the big lake even in summer. Great day.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Slam other Forum members----------------not me, not ever!!!!!!!! I leave Wednesday for a 5 day sail and will try to get some pictures for the sedentary.

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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    I spent Sunday midday on the water in the company of some genuine sail & oar boats. No matter where you want to set you boundaries on the definition, there's no question that these boats are right in the sweet spot.











    Half these pics are by Yeadon.

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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Nothing quite like getting nearly becalmed just as you cross out of the shipping lanes.

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    To the left, Hvalsoe 18 (owned by Forumite Yeadon). To the right, Artic Tern (owned by Forumite Whatshisname).



    Look at the little vehicles we arrived in, as well, versus the big rigs needed by the powerboaters.



    At the Suquamish Pier. The Hvalsoe carries her beam well aft of the Artic Tern. It's not easy to tell from the photos, but the Hvalsoe has a similar mid-section, but much more volume aft.


    Next ... Artic Tern on the left, Hvalsoe 18 on the right.



    Artic Tern ...



    Hvalsoe 18 ...
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  35. #105
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Great pics, thanks for sharing. That "Haverchuck" is some good looking boat! Well done Eric and Tim.

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