Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

[jsjpd1]

In my view a sail and oar boat is a non-motorized open boat that can be either rowed or sailed a significant distance on a regular basis and covers a wide range of boats. The interesting part is discussing the differences in that range and between individual boats. Not all sail and oar boats are going to fit everyone’s needs and personal preference is going to play a role. That’s okay.

Jim

[jpatrick]

This discussion reminds me of when I was doing my undergraduate fine arts degree. We all loved to debate the "what is art" question. Usually there'd be an interloper who championed a form that others found to not fit well into their chosen definitions. Then chaos would reign, voices would rise, and minds would race for arguments. All part of the learning process. A few years later when I was finishing a Masters in Fine Art none of us cared. We knew that what we were individually doing was the single thing most important to ourselves. That was all that mattered.


Jeff

[Yeadon]

Agreed.

[Harvey Golden]

​Sail & Oar, Baby!

[skaraborgcraft]

^ Coming soon to the Salish Sea......

[Clarkey]

The thing occupying my mind at the moment is how to design a boat that can be handy under sail and oar at the same time. Motor sailing is such a boon in larger boats I wonder if it can be scaled down to human powered craft?

[rgthom]

The thing occupying my mind at the moment is how to design a boat that can be handy under sail and oar at the same time. Motor sailing is such a boon in larger boats I wonder if it can be scaled down to human powered craft?

Colin Angus row-sails his design:

[Daniel Noyes]

Colin Angus row-sails his design:

interesting, a multi hull!
Id be interested to hear what S&O tm. thinks of "motor" sailing... Im not a big fan.

typically if im sail & oaring the only time Ill motor sail is if we had the sails up, the wind dies where we are but I can see wind in the distance that I think we can catch, eg we sailed into the wind shadow of an island or bluff, or if the wind seems to be getting spotty and there's more in a particular direction.

other wise I will row if theres not a lot of wind or sail if there is.

motor sailing is sort of the worst of both worlds, the sail if it has any power will tip the boat or push the boat at a speed where oars are useless, if the wind is light rowing will take the wind out of the sails or clock the wind around to the nose of the boat so the sails are flapping and not drawing properly...

at least with this Angus boat the heeling effect of the sails is countered by the multi hull, other wise it would be impossible to row with that sliding seat!

[openboater]

Of course the pinnacle of Sail & Oar boats is the St Lawrence Skiff. No rudders and just the tiniest of center boards and row fantastic. All others pale in comparison.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uBIkMAx2qlw

[Yeadon]

Of course the pinnacle of Sail & Oar boats is the St Lawrence Skiff. No rudders and just the tiniest of center boards and row fantastic. All others pale in comparison.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uBIkMAx2qlw

Swoon.

I've thought about building a skin-on-frame St. Lawrence Skiff. That would be a lot of fun.

[Clarkey]

interesting, a multi hull!
Id be interested to hear what S&O tm. thinks of "motor" sailing... Im not a big fan.

typically if im sail & oaring the only time Ill motor sail is if we had the sails up, the wind dies where we are but I can see wind in the distance that I think we can catch, eg we sailed into the wind shadow of an island or bluff, or if the wind seems to be getting spotty and there's more in a particular direction.

other wise I will row if theres not a lot of wind or sail if there is.

motor sailing is sort of the worst of both worlds, the sail if it has any power will tip the boat or push the boat at a speed where oars are useless, if the wind is light rowing will take the wind out of the sails or clock the wind around to the nose of the boat so the sails are flapping and not drawing properly...

at least with this Angus boat the heeling effect of the sails is countered by the multi hull, other wise it would be impossible to row with that sliding seat!

I think a multihull is probably the best way of doing this - I asked Colin Angus if even the low heel of the tri was annoying when rowing but he said it was ok. Initially he had planned to have some kind of adjustable rig to level the gates but found that it wasn't necessary.

[Alan H]

This discussion reminds me of when I was doing my undergraduate fine arts degree. We all loved to debate the "what is art" question. Usually there'd be an interloper who championed a form that others found to not fit well into their chosen definitions. Then chaos would reign, voices would rise, and minds would race for arguments. All part of the learning process. A few years later when I was finishing a Masters in Fine Art none of us cared. We knew that what we were individually doing was the single thing most important to ourselves. That was all that mattered.


Jeff

This.

So so so so so so this.

The whole term "sail and oar" has become so "loaded" on this forum that I'm tempted to stop using it.

[rgthom]

The whole term "sail and oar" has become so "loaded" on this forum that I'm tempted to stop using it.

This thread has turned out to be much more polite than I expected, but then a certain strongly opinionated potential contributor did check out early....

[skaraborgcraft]

This.

So so so so so so this.

The whole term "sail and oar" has become so "loaded" on this forum that I'm tempted to stop using it.

Just remember to quote "Non Salish Sea Sail n Oar" and you should be fine.

[Thorne]

On Facebook we've been guessing at what James will be sailing when he's old and grey, and I came up with this -- still Sail & Oar™ of course, but with a sporty assist in the propulsion department...

[James McMullen]

This thread has turned out to be much more polite than I expected, but then a certain strongly opinionated potential contributor did check out early....

I think a certain somebody needed to walk away for a bit, find his center, reexamine his motives for why he even bothers to post things here in the first place.

So here's what I've come up with:

When I post things about Sail & Oar™, I mean a specific thing. You should know what that is by now if you've read any of my dozens of threads detailing trips of [Somewhere] by Sail & Oar™. It doesn't mean anything other than what Tim says it means. That's why he coined the term in the first place, to make it clear that it's not some generic sailing and oaring type activity.The specific term Sail & Oar™, with caps, ampersand, and the little TM is a freaking trademark. You can't have it. Use a different term unless you mean the exactly same thing. Use any combination of "sail" and "oar" in whatever order and however you like, but that specific combination is not up for grabs.
I don't care if your vision of sail & oar doesn't match mine. You're welcome to write and submit your own damn threads, as many as you like. But you ought to come up with your own catchphrase. I don't care if it's "Real Sail and Oar" or "The Best Sail and Oar" or whatever. Just please pick a different term unless you really do mean Sail & Oar™, and that way everything will be clear.

There's plenty of room for all of us to write about the things we most care about. If you're not into Sail & Oar™ yourself, then that's just fine. Better, probably. You'll certainly live a more comfortable life. Go ahead and write about the stuff you prefer. I make no apologies for my own preferences, and I cordially invite you to simply ignore me and pass my threads by if you don't like what I have to write. This is a buyer's market. You have the power to choose what you consume.

[Thorne]

I'm sure we're all good with the Salish Sail & Oar™ being a specific style of boat, just as you defined it. The more generic "sail and oar" is a much wider concept, not clearly defined and subject to personal interpretation.

[jsjpd1]

​Sail & Oar, Baby!

Perfect! Now all you need is a hundred of your closest friends to help you row it.

[Harvey Golden]

Perfect! Now all you need is a hundred of your closest friends to help you row it.

Heck, I only have two friends...

[rgthom]

I think a certain somebody needed to walk away for a bit, find his center, reexamine his motives for why he even bothers to post things here in the first place.

So here's what I've come up with:

When I post things about Sail & Oar™, I mean a specific thing. You should know what that is by now if you've read any of my dozens of threads detailing trips of [Somewhere] by Sail & Oar™. It doesn't mean anything other than what Tim says it means. That's why he coined the term in the first place, to make it clear that it's not some generic sailing and oaring type activity.The specific term Sail & Oar™, with caps, ampersand, and the little TM is a freaking trademark. You can't have it. Use a different term unless you mean the exactly same thing. Use any combination of "sail" and "oar" in whatever order and however you like, but that specific combination is not up for grabs.
I don't care if your vision of sail & oar doesn't match mine. You're welcome to write and submit your own damn threads, as many as you like. But you ought to come up with your own catchphrase. I don't care if it's "Real Sail and Oar" or "The Best Sail and Oar" or whatever. Just please pick a different term unless you really do mean Sail & Oar™, and that way everything will be clear.

There's plenty of room for all of us to write about the things we most care about. If you're not into Sail & Oar™ yourself, then that's just fine. Better, probably. You'll certainly live a more comfortable life. Go ahead and write about the stuff you prefer. I make no apologies for my own preferences, and I cordially invite you to simply ignore me and pass my threads by if you don't like what I have to write. This is a buyer's market. You have the power to choose what you consume.

All fair, but you have to admit that when you land on a thread and say someone's boat is sub-optimal that it can rub some folks the wrong way (like saying their child is sub-optimal). It does not always come across that you are referring to your own particular preferences. The thread then collapses in indignant responses to the Sail & Oar™ post. I'm not sure of the answer - of how to convey over the internet that you are not dissing someone - but you surely recognize that this keeps happening.

[jsjpd1]

Heck, I only have two friends...

Maybe something slightly smaller then...

[Daniel Noyes]

This.

So so so so so so this.

The whole term "sail and oar" has become so "loaded" on this forum that I'm tempted to stop using it.

have you heard the term Sail & Oar other than this forum?

I think I first came across the term in WB mag mabey an early article about Raid Scotland? or mabey before then. It's a great term, self explanitory... but in 40 years of being around and on the water in olde Newengland using and enjoying all our forms of traditional craft Id never heard the term. boats of the S&O type are refered to by their type name (peapod, dory, banks;Swampscott, skiff, doryskiff, etc.) and then if they are S and o they are specified as having a sail rig or a sail rig and centerboard... the types are all known for their nice rowing and excelent load carrying and seakeeping capabilities so no need to specify the Oar bit.

I also hadnt come across a Faering untill I attended the SRR at WB! then they were every where, I still hardly ever come across theme here on the coast, it's usually Swamscotts, Banks dorys or whitehalls.

[Canoeyawl]

I think if it has sails and oars it qualifies as a boat, if it is little it qualifies as small craft, or "rowboat"
I've sailing and rowing almost everthing for years now, some of them pushing thirty feet.
This is what comes to mind as a sail and oar boat.

[Alan H]

Just remember to quote "Non Salish Sea Sail n Oar" and you should be fine.

Look, I, too used to get annoyed when James would say things like my boat wasn't a "sail and oar" boat. What made it harder to swallow was that I, like many of us, I suspect saw a number of beautiful photo threads here about wonderful sailing, rowing and camping excursions that the PNW lads did. There's no arguing that their boats are lovely and the expeditions look like a riot of fun. "I want to do THAT", says I, to myself. So I got a boat rather like that, discovered that *DUH* that sort of experience isn't readily available around my home waters and then got cranky about it for about three months.

At some point I woke up and realized that there's nothing wrong with me or my boat. I have fun with it. It does cool and wonderful things. It doesn't cost a mint and if I want to try something wild and crazy like changing the rig, I can just DO it. I'm not beholden to anybody. Somewhere along the line I took off the cranky-pants. They're really tight, you know? They squeeze your nuts and make it hard to breathe and relax and enjoy a day on the water.

If Messrs Hvalsoe, McMullen and Yeadon plus friends have a particular type of boat in mind to do a particular thing, and they develop variations on the theme, give the "theme" a name and go have fun with it, then how does that hurt anybody? How does that obligate anybody to do the same thing that they do? It doesn't. If one of the lads has an opinion about not wanting to cruise in company with an outboard, well...so what? How many of us are ever going to actually be affected by that?

We often hear that in Puget Sound the conditions change in the flash of an instant and how terribly dangerous that is, and well...I just shrug. Like that doesn't happen everywhere? Whatever. It's not worth wearing the crankypants for so long that cranky starts to turn into "hate". Chill out. Tell us about YOUR boat, and pictures. We need pictures. Boat Porn is GOOD.

[Alan H]

All fair, but you have to admit that when you land on a thread and say someone's boat is sub-optimal that it can rub some folks the wrong way (like saying their child is sub-optimal). It does not always come across that you are referring to your own particular preferences. The thread then collapses in indignant responses to the Sail & Oar™ post. I'm not sure of the answer - of how to convey over the internet that you are not dissing someone - but you surely recognize that this keeps happening.

James, Rick does have a point. You did it to me, when we wrote back and forth about the possibility of me coming up to watch the Race to Alaska start.

For me, personally that was actually a good thing, because it caused me to stop and think.

Question - Does this guys opinion actually matter to me? ... Answer, mostly no, a little bit of yes, because he's a smart guy and built a mess of boats, but not a lot.
Question - Is there something "wrong" with my boat? ... Answer, sure. All boats are compromises. It's a sucky power cruiser, for example. It's a lot slower than the collegiate FJ's I sail around with, a lot. ALL boats are suboptimal in some respects, and excel in others.
Question - Do I enjoy my boat?... Answer, yes.
Question - Is there anything I'd change about my boat? Answer- sure. Isn't that part of the fun? Trying stuff out? I wish I didn't have that center thwart and bulkhead, you know?
Question - Is there only one way to have fun on the water sailing around, using oars when the wind dies, and camping on the boat? Answer - Well, DUH. No, there's NOT only one way to do that.

So I kind of quit worrying about it.

I also hope you post another picture thread of some amazing and wonderful expedition with you and your Puget Sound mates, soon.

[Yeadon]

All fair, but you have to admit that when you land on a thread and say someone's boat is sub-optimal that it can rub some folks the wrong way (like saying their child is sub-optimal). It does not always come across that you are referring to your own particular preferences. The thread then collapses in indignant responses to the Sail & Oar™ post. I'm not sure of the answer - of how to convey over the internet that you are not dissing someone - but you surely recognize that this keeps happening.

James certainly speaks for James. I speak for me. That said, some people's children are most certainly sub-optimal.

[Thorne]

As the man says, he wants to keep the specific Sail & Oar™ for those specific types of boats, and that's fine for me. The more general phrase "Sail & Oar" has been used for many years, including by John Leather in his 1982 book by that name.

[WI-Tom]

Id be interested to hear what S&O tm. thinks of "motor" sailing... Im not a big fan.

I've used "motor sailing" a couple of times in my brother's Phoenix III in light winds on the right heading, and found a significant improvement in boat speed over sail alone, and with greatly reduced effort over pure rowing. But it is a bit annoying to manage oars with the slight heeling, and sheet, and tiller, and sail sometimes flapping overhead or pushing against your shoulder as you row. I don't use it much.

Tom

[WI-Tom]

As the man says, he wants to keep the specific Sail & Oar™ for those specific types of boats, and that's fine for me. The more general phrase "Sail & Oar" has been used for many years, including by John Leather in his 1982 book by that name.

Hmm... I need to read this. My library used to have a copy but someone stole it.

Also, what I notice (judging from the cover which as we all know should never be done) is that John Leather's use of the term "sail and oar" seems to be fairly well in line with modern 50/50(ish) compromise boats like my own Alaska. In other words (again judging from the cover illustration), a boat that can travel equally happily under sail or oars, or even both at the same time. If the text supports that hypothesis, than "sail and oar" has always been a narrower category than some here apparently want it to be.

Tom

[Thorne]

Actually Leather includes 21 different boats in this book as chapters and shows illustrations and descriptions of many others, ranging from the 12' Esmeralda dinghy, the Albert Strange canoe yawl Cherub II at 20', an 18' keelboat, several Aeolus boats, some 30' racing gigs, a naval cutter, sailing canoes and Norfolk punts.

[jsjpd1]

Have it your way Tom. But that boat looks closer to 60/40 towards the sail side to me.

[BBSebens]

I really appreciate the candor of everyone participating in this discussion. Great conversation without reverting back to 4th grade.

A win for Forums everywhere.

[jsjpd1]

I think a certain somebody needed to walk away for a bit, find his center, reexamine his motives for why he even bothers to post things here in the first place.

So here's what I've come up with:

When I post things about Sail & Oar™, I mean a specific thing. You should know what that is by now if you've read any of my dozens of threads detailing trips of [Somewhere] by Sail & Oar™. It doesn't mean anything other than what Tim says it means. That's why he coined the term in the first place, to make it clear that it's not some generic sailing and oaring type activity.The specific term Sail & Oar™, with caps, ampersand, and the little TM is a freaking trademark. You can't have it. Use a different term unless you mean the exactly same thing. Use any combination of "sail" and "oar" in whatever order and however you like, but that specific combination is not up for grabs.
I don't care if your vision of sail & oar doesn't match mine. You're welcome to write and submit your own damn threads, as many as you like. But you ought to come up with your own catchphrase. I don't care if it's "Real Sail and Oar" or "The Best Sail and Oar" or whatever. Just please pick a different term unless you really do mean Sail & Oar™, and that way everything will be clear.

There's plenty of room for all of us to write about the things we most care about. If you're not into Sail & Oar™ yourself, then that's just fine. Better, probably. You'll certainly live a more comfortable life. Go ahead and write about the stuff you prefer. I make no apologies for my own preferences, and I cordially invite you to simply ignore me and pass my threads by if you don't like what I have to write. This is a buyer's market. You have the power to choose what you consume.

Don't forget to register with the patent office. Sorry, couldn't resist.
http://www.uspto.gov/trademark

[jsjpd1]

I think everyone gets that...and, holds you with extreme high regard.

I've been perusing our obnoxious USA politics...again.
Stumbled on this article about Donald Trump. Made me think of....
...well, freedom of speech is a wonderful thing...isn't it?

---------------
"The problem with being Trump is the same thing that explains the enormous fame and success of Trump: a naked neediness, a certain shamelessness, an insatiable hunger to be the largest, loudest, most honkingly conspicuous presence in any room—the great, braying Trumpness of Trump—and that’s probably far less of a revel than it seems. Contented people, well-grounded people, people at ease inside their skin, just don’t behave the way Trump does. The boundary most people draw between thought and speech, between emotion and action, does not appear to exist for Trump. He says what he wants to say, insults whom he wants to insult, and never, ever considers apology or retreat. But that’s not someone driven by the pleasures of the id—which, whatever else you can say about it, is a thing of happy appetites and uncaring impulses. It’s far more someone driven by the rage and pain and emotional brittleness of narcissism, and everywhere in Trump’s life are the signs of what a fraught state of mind that can be.
There is Trump’s compulsive use of superlatives—especially when he’s talking about his own accomplishments. Maybe what he’s building or selling really is the greatest, the grandest, the biggest, the best, but if that’s so, let the product do the talking. If it can’t, maybe it ain’t so great.
There’s the compulsive promotion of the Trump name. Other giants of commerce and industry use their own names sparingly—even when they’re businesspeople who have the opportunity to turn themselves from a person into a brand. There is no GatesWare software, no BezosBooks.com; it’s not Zuckerbook you log onto a dozen times a day.
But the Trump name is everywhere in the Trump world, and there’s a reason for that. You can look at something you’ve built with quiet pride and know it’s yours, or you can look at it worriedly, insecurely, fretting that someone, somewhere may not know that you created it—diminishing you in the process. And so you stamp what you build with two-story letters identifying who you are— like a child writing his name on a baseball glove—just to make sure there’s no misunderstanding."
--------------

This crap has no place here. Take it to the bilge!

[jsjpd1]

Actually Leather includes 21 different boats in this book as chapters and shows illustrations and descriptions of many others, ranging from the 12' Esmeralda dinghy, the Albert Strange canoe yawl Cherub II at 20', an 18' keelboat, several Aeolus boats, some 30' racing gigs, a naval cutter, sailing canoes and Norfolk punts.

Thorns, I think you won the internet.