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Thread: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Nothing quite like getting nearly becalmed just as you cross out of the shipping lanes.

    Well, look there--you guys have boats almost as big as we get on the Great Lakes! I had to dodge around a couple of 1,000-footers yesterday--of course one arrived just as I was sailing out the entrance channel, and the other one arrived just as I was sailing back in.

    Looks like a great outing--and Haverchuck looks fantastic. Congrats on the design and the build.

    Tom
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  2. #107
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Well, look there--you guys have boats almost as big as we get on the Great Lakes! I had to dodge around a couple of 1,000-footers yesterday--of course one arrived just as I was sailing out the entrance channel, and the other one arrived just as I was sailing back in.

    Looks like a great outing--and Haverchuck looks fantastic. Congrats on the design and the build.

    Tom
    That one came pretty far east for the northbound lane. Tim rowed a few strokes to hasten our crossing. That is about as close as I ever want to be. But I found the crossing of a large tug and tow just prior to this even more nail biting. Unfavorable tack at an acute angle to the tug. We were looking at that one for a long time doing the geometry in our heads. Please wind hold and head me no further. Could partly account for the expression on my face. And that hat ...

    Believe me Tom they get bigger. The biggest wakes seem to come from container ships. Had one of those too.

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    To the left, Hvalsoe 18 (owned by Forumite Yeadon). To the right, Artic Tern (owned by Forumite Whatshisname).



    Look at the little vehicles we arrived in, as well, versus the big rigs needed by the powerboaters.



    At the Suquamish Pier. The Hvalsoe carries her beam well aft of the Artic Tern. It's not easy to tell from the photos, but the Hvalsoe has a similar mid-section, but much more volume aft.


    Next ... Artic Tern on the left, Hvalsoe 18 on the right.



    Artic Tern ...



    Hvalsoe 18 ...
    Fantastic. This is literally the two boats I'm trying to choose between, right next to each other.

    still no closer to picking...
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

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  4. #109
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Had a look at Tim's boat in person tonight. Really nice boat.

    Jim
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  5. #110
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    I'll submit my Whilly Boat as "sail and oar." She's great at both. Just a bit too small to carry adult passengers comfortably or camp-cruise. Super fun for me alone or with a kiddo, though!


  6. #111
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    That one came pretty far east for the northbound lane. Tim rowed a few strokes to hasten our crossing.
    Yeah, we also did a bit of rowing with the sails still up. After all they call it "Sail and Oar", not "Sail or Oar". Seems to roll of the tongue better too.

    The sail over to Suquamish was very pleasant. Nice sunshine and good sailing. Nice reward of pizza at our destination too.



    I can't remember too many years that I could get away with shorts in October in the PNW.
    James Van't Slot
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  7. #112
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by whatshisname View Post
    Yeah, we also did a bit of rowing with the sails still up. After all they call it "Sail and Oar", not "Sail or Oar". Seems to roll of the tongue better too.

    The sail over to Suquamish was very pleasant. Nice sunshine and good sailing. Nice reward of pizza at our destination too.



    I can't remember too many years that I could get away with shorts in October in the PNW.

    Sailing in company with the others, any thoughts on the performance differences between Osprey and Rowan?
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

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  8. #113
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Sailing in company with the others, any thoughts on the performance differences between Osprey and Rowan?
    Osprey was definitely lagging behind most of the day. A lot of that is the fault of the skipper as I'm still learning to get the most performance out of my rig. I'm used to sailing sloops so I tend to over-sheet and pinch a bit. Both Rowan (a stretched Tern) and Haverchuck have a longer wetted surface which I'm sure is a big advantage.
    James Van't Slot
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  9. #114
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Tim did his very best to pass me and sail a circle around me. He very nearly made it too. It was only through substantial cheating and happening to be holding the weather gauge that I managed to fend him off. Eventually, I had to feign an injury and go home early before he had the chance to humiliate me properly.

  10. #115
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    That's impossible. Everyone has been taught that Rowan is the best boat for all conditions.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Tim did his very best to pass me and sail a circle around me. He very nearly made it too. It was only through substantial cheating and happening to be holding the weather gauge that I managed to fend him off. Eventually, I had to feign an injury and go home early before he had the chance to humiliate me properly.
    that HV 18 is quite a boat. from experience a 13' Chamberlain dory skiff is every bit as much boat as a 16' Swampscott, the wider transom adds a lot of power to the sail carrying ability of a hull, the lines from amidships to the transom run straighter for higher speed potential and the interior volume is significantly increased for passengers or gear.

    I've had the chance to spend some time in the 22' Rodger Long "Yawl dory" wich is a really incredible ride off the wind with a good breeze!


  12. #117
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Sailing in company with the others, any thoughts on the performance differences between Osprey and Rowan?
    I'm expanding your question, but comparing the three from what little time I've had:

    The 18 has a longer waterline than the AT, primarily due to the longer overhangs of the 'terns'. The 18 therefore should be somewhat faster than an AT, which seemed to be the case on this outing. Discount wind shifts, swirlies, and individual skipper decisions. The ST is of course longer and as such can be expected to cover more ground than the AT. I believe the 18 has a little less waterline than the ST. But they seem to run side by side much of the time and occasionally trade places. One might expect waterline length to make a small difference in the long run. They have essentially the same rig. An interesting comparison would be wetted surface. The 18 seems to be at least the equal of the ST making ground to windward. Some points of sail or a certain wind velocity might favor one over the other, hard to say without much more time on the water.
    A little more wind seems to help the 18 relative to the ST. All three boats have similar midsections. Level load waterline is similar between the 18 and the ST, but the 18 might pick up some more volume in the stern when heeled more than a few degrees.

    It is easy to assume the transom stern will have an edge downwind and to make some assumptions about reserve bouyancy. I think the Terns have good reserve bouyancy as well, particularly the ST. More than flat out speed, I would say the flow of the buttock lines with the 18 is about interior living volume,where the skipper primarily hangs out, and maintaining a sweet rowing waterline. All three of these boats are ballasted and that will hinder downhill speed to some degree, to the benefit of other performance aspects. It would be fun to see what the 18 would do lightly loaded, downhill.

    I still think the biggest difference between the high transom stern and double enders is the interior volume you are given to work with and to inhabit.

    All three are good boats. The 18 in its basic form could just as well be built with another inch station spacing for 19'2" LOA. This would have a longer waterline and be an even stronger rival to the ST. For various conditions there is a trade off between waterline length and wetted surface.

  13. #118
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    . The 18 in its basic form could just as well be built with another inch station spacing for 19'2" LOA. This would have a longer waterline and be an even stronger rival to the ST. For various conditions there is a trade off between waterline length and wetted surface.
    Well there's a neat idea.

    I greatly appreciate your insight, Eric.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

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  14. #119
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Good, unbiased statement based on observation. I doth my cap.....

  15. #120
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Well there's a neat idea.

    I greatly appreciate your insight, Eric.
    If memory serves Rodger did something similar to shrink the Yawl Dory to 18'


  16. #121
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    That's a nice hull design. Any idea what's the beam measurement on the 18' version of the Yawl dory?
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  17. #122
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    22' Elyssa is almost 6'... but that sounds a little too wide for a 18'er, mabey he did scale beam as well, also the rendering looks proportionally narrower... 5'2" comes to mind... but that is also the max beam of the 21' Alpha dory so it just might be stuck in my head, better ask Roger if it's important.

    We had an awesome run in Elyssa this September, the day after the schooner races it was blowing 15-18 in the morning and we were running reaching and surfing 3' chop from Gloucester harbor out and around to the hole in the wall at Rockport, what a sleigh ride and a great day!
    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 10-16-2015 at 02:33 PM.

  18. #123
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Recreational sail and oar from the 19th century.



    -Jim

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    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
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    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  19. #124
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    To the left, Hvalsoe 18 (owned by Forumite Yeadon). To the right, Artic Tern (owned by Forumite Whatshisname).



    Look at the little vehicles we arrived in, as well, versus the big rigs needed by the powerboaters.



    At the Suquamish Pier. The Hvalsoe carries her beam well aft of the Artic Tern. It's not easy to tell from the photos, but the Hvalsoe has a similar mid-section, but much more volume aft.


    Next ... Artic Tern on the left, Hvalsoe 18 on the right.



    Artic Tern ...



    Hvalsoe 18 ...
    What's really missing here is a Ness Yawl... Wait I have one! Otter...

  20. #125
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    I agree!

  21. #126
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Sail & Oar in light wind can be a potent combination!



    Low wetted surface area makes for a slippery hull. The Alpha was faster than the CS up to around 15-18 mph breeze off the wind and could keep up with the CS going to windward.

  22. #127
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Thought I'd throw this one in here...

    Took a sail with a couple guys that I sometimes crew with on a J30 out of Everett. We sailed around a bit on Lake Washington and had lunch at the Blue Water Bistro on Leschi. My friend Brian followed us up in his beautiful skiff. We felt a bit sorry for him all alone in his boat so we offered to tow him back to the boat launch.

    Not too often you get to see a powerboat towed by a sail & oar boat!



    Last edited by whatshisname; 11-09-2015 at 01:46 PM.
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  23. #128
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    I found a great boat book at a local antique store and as I was reading it I wondered if any of the designs discussed were built/sailed by any forum members. The book was published in 1982 and I’m sure some of you are familiar with it.



    Reading the forward was like finding a kindred spirit from the past…the author is describing the ‘sail and oar’ philosophy and joy of getting on the water and enjoying it without racing, engines, complicated expensive systems, etc. Is anyone familiar with the author? I just realized I’m dredging up a thread from 7 years ago!

  24. #129
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    97354194-CA53-4B5E-8D54-13D7C024182A.jpg

    It’s been a long and weird seven years indeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  25. #130
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerwagon View Post
    Is anyone familiar with the author?
    well, yeah. . .

    https://www.classicboat.co.uk/articl...her-1928-2006/
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  26. #131
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerwagon View Post
    I found a great boat book at a local antique store and as I was reading it I wondered if any of the designs discussed were built/sailed by any forum members. The book was published in 1982 and I’m sure some of you are familiar with it.



    Reading the forward was like finding a kindred spirit from the past…the author is describing the ‘sail and oar’ philosophy and joy of getting on the water and enjoying it without racing, engines, complicated expensive systems, etc. Is anyone familiar with the author? I just realized I’m dredging up a thread from 7 years ago!
    John Leather is a pretty big name around here, I suspect. I would assume many forum members know his work, including this book in particular. But there are plenty of others, often focused on traditional rigs. I've read parts of this one, though not the whole thing. As for dredging up old threads, this is one of my favorites. All of the sail & oar threads, really.

    Tom
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  27. #132
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    97354194-CA53-4B5E-8D54-13D7C024182A.jpg

    It’s been a long and weird seven years indeed.


    Amen
    Alex

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  28. #133
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    4CD9D833-8080-48FD-A230-369344DDB05B.jpg

    From earlier this “summer”
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  29. #134
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    You might like Conor O'Brien's "Sea-Boats, Oars and Sails" too.
    Steve

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  30. #135
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    I’ll have to check that one out. I thought the author might be a familiar name among forumites…I just didn’t recall reading his name. There are some really neat little boats in the book…and he is not afraid to give his honest opinion of things.

  31. #136
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Very interested thread to read here. Thanks for bumping it!

  32. #137
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    I once looked at this in the guise of a Maine Island Trail Cruiser. Flat calm in the morning often with a big ground swell. Sea breeze up in the PM often up Force 5. So I came up with rowing pleasantly at 3 knots for long distance, sailing pleasantly and safely at 4 or better, to windward. All single handed. The rig needed to be struck and set up when underway, as rowing with a mast up in a swell isn't fun and air drag is significant. Spars could stick out ahead or aft. Rowing should be pleasant enough so you could just go out for a pull leaving the rig on the beach. I didn't worry about camping as you can do that on almost anything.
    Ben Fuller
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  33. #138
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    I once looked at this in the guise of a Maine Island Trail Cruiser. Flat calm in the morning often with a big ground swell. Sea breeze up in the PM often up Force 5. So I came up with rowing pleasantly at 3 knots for long distance, sailing pleasantly and safely at 4 or better, to windward. All single handed. The rig needed to be struck and set up when underway, as rowing with a mast up in a swell isn't fun and air drag is significant. Spars could stick out ahead or aft. Rowing should be pleasant enough so you could just go out for a pull leaving the rig on the beach. I didn't worry about camping as you can do that on almost anything.
    Ben, the conditions you describe could also apply to the outer British Columbia coast, at least the south part during the summer high pressure systems that seem to dominate. Often the inner coast as well, minus the big ground swell.
    Alex

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    http://www.alexzimmerman.ca

  34. #139
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Striking the rig when rowing any distance seems to me to be essential and the easier it is the more often you'll do it. I come down to the whaleboats where the rig came up and down fast. I was skeptical about air drag, until I dropped sticks to compare it. And the inertia of a mast makes a mockery of smooth rowing in any conditions save a mirror smooth.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
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  35. #140
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    Default Re: Definitions of "sail and oar" boat

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    A boat that sailed well enough to get from one rivermouth to the next across stretches of open water, then row well enough to explore the quiet and confined backwaters at the head of that river is a real treat.
    Reading back over this old thread, John's comment is actually a pretty good description of my trips to Georgian Bay. The entire mainland is guarded by a wide belt of rocks and shoals, with occasional channels or bays providing access to the interior. So, the routine seems to be:

    Sail along outside for 10, 20, even 30+ miles:

    sailing.JPG

    Then duck inside to explore channels that (very often) seem to be designed for rowing--as in, the tips of your oars often nearly scraping the sides of the channel as you row past:

    rowing.JPG

    Tom
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