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Thread: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    "too many kayaks" That is even worse gobbledegook than anything found on that ridiculous Explanations of Lug Rigs thread.

    Tell your wife I said you could have as many kayaks as you like.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    I'm stuck sitting on the couch today nursing a hip flexor strain anyways, so it's giving me something to take my mind off the soreness.
    That's what you get for trying out as a mid-season replacement for the Seahawk's offensive line, pal. ;-)
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    "too many kayaks" That is even worse gobbledegook than anything found on that ridiculous Explanations of Lug Rigs thread.

    Tell your wife I said you could have as many kayaks as you like.
    I'll tell her you said that right after I try and explain to her I plan on starting a new build of a sailboat right after the first of the year that is twice the size of any kayak or canoe sitting around here. It would be like me asking her to go and purchase another shop tool - we'll say I'm going to ask her for a CNC to cut cabinets on and when she says nope, I'll then ask for a new cabinet saw and she'll think she is getting away with talking me out of something, when really all I wanted was the cabinet saw in the first place. Come to think about that, I do need a new lathe - maybe I'll try for a Oneway. There has to be some small spindle thingy's I need to turn for a new build huh? Maybe I need to tell her I plan on building a 22 or 24 footer and after all the talking a 19 footer will be my settling point. And if I hide the new kayak build behind the CY build she'll never see it anyways.

    And on the Explanations of a Lug Rig thread - all I can say is WOW!
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up.” by Henry David Thoreau

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Well, after much debate - ya, ya, ya... I know. I have finally decided which one to go with and will be ordering the plans shortly from Iain. I received some stuff from Mr. Oughtred this week and did some very careful measuring in my shop and I think a statement that Iain made on the CY in some articles/papers he included that made my decision final. He stated that the CY was a "family" boat, which I know a lot of you have stated basically the same thing. But after really nailing down my intended usage - one being Everglades/10,000 Islands of Florida (hopefully on a regular basis) and probably only every really sailing with one other person - and I'm sure eventually having a hard time getting her to go out sailing with her old man and I'll be solo sailing. Plus realizing all those years of mountaineering in South America and hating every moment of part of it (packing in to the base of the mountains) until I scaled down my pack weights and crap I was taking. I'm hoping that I can scale down my intended boat packing also to what I would normally bring on a kayak pack trip and not think of this as an SUV and take the kitchen sink. I think sometimes when you have the space you feel like you can take it, even if you don't need it. Easier to deal with and clean up each morning. My SA trips eventually trimmed down to no tent and only a bivy sack - much easier on my back and feet. So that all being said it's going to be a Sooty Tern - I'm hoping after reading a few threads that I won't have any issues adding the extra pages/changes to the Artic Tern and converting it. It sounds like there are a few things to be very careful of. But I think the smaller, more capable rowing boat will be welcome in the Everglades areas and when it comes to beaching it or going solo. I guess I'm going to be one of the McMullen converts! Plus If I build the Sooty Tern I can spin the boat build 90 degrees in my shop and still do another smaller canoe/kayak build along the way if I want to, and it doesn't affect any of my normally placed floor machines. So it's all good. Here we go I guess.
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up.” by Henry David Thoreau

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by SailRat View Post
    . . . it's going to be a Sooty Tern . . .
    And may God have mercy on your soul. You are now going to have to bear the weight of all the jealousy from the rest of the poor schmoes who don't have a boat even a fraction as awesome. Try and keep your chin up, Sailrat.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Sooty Tern is a great boat. I think you'll be very happy with your decision. I had an Arctic Tern for a spell and while it was/is a great boat, the drawn out ends and the extra WL length of the ST makes it a great choice.

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    Hey Sailrat, once you're done following the herd I've got a line on a nice American-made design you might appreciate.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    SailRat, before you commit, look at the Welsford AWOL. It may be the best sailing camp cruiser.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    SailRat, before you commit, look at the Welsford AWOL. It may be the best sailing camp cruiser.
    Thank you and I really did look at the Welsford designs very closely. That is the reason the thread asks about the 6m Whaler. The AWOL is just not the design I want. I know that there are probably faster designs than the ST, and ones with more storage or enclosed areas, but that is not what I'm looking for. For me the boat has to speak to the heart - corny I know... But if I don't really get inspired by the looks and design it just won't happen for me. At one point when all of this came about to start a larger build earlier this year/late last year I really was thinking about building a Scamp - it's cute, has a little cuddy, all those things. I even seen it being used on the Everglades Challenge - but, I have a hard time getting past the snub nose. Don't know why, because it really is cute. Then when I asked my daughter what she might want to build she said she really wasn't that big on the Scamp. And for her the difference between the CY and ST is not even a point, they are the same boat. It was me doing all the minor over thinking. I know there are a lot of other designs out there, but within this thread and one other I asked for examples and really didn't get any contenders. And no matter if I am following the masses or not, the CY, AT, NY and ST are really great designs that have a very devote fan base - there has to be a reason. And there has not been one person chime in that said they would not build one again - smaller, longer, wider, narrower - maybe all those things - but still the same boat - AGAIN. That speaks in spades to me. So I'm not trying to offend the others, but nobody has shown me another DOUBLE ENDER to compare to the Oughtred designs. Some very close, yes. The Welsford Navigator, Pathfinder and 6m Whaler are probably the closest. Love their lines also. One of those might be a next project
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up.” by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Hey Sailrat, once you're done following the herd I've got a line on a nice American-made design you might appreciate.
    I'm listening? Let me see it. Is it a double ender? The only way it might change is if it's a double ender that is maybe traditional lapstrake and has about the same dimensions and doesn't weigh twice what the ST or CY does. That's about the only way. Sorry
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up.” by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    So my next couple questions are going to be ones that I might need to post on a separate thread - let me know if that is the case. Any links to already started threads would work also. But here they are:

    1. Are there any good threads/links to building frames/strongbacks for the build that could be mobile and on casters. I know it's very critical to keep the boat absolutely straight and square when doing the laps, but has anyone built a frame that could be rolled around without losing that? I don't need to roll it across the yard, but to reposition it in different places in my shop would be great. With the strip canoes and kayaks it's very easy to do that, but something this big it will be the first time I have done it.

    2. Stupid question here coming from somebody that has not ever painted a boat - all my builds so far have been clear coated/epoxy. Even getting the clearer West System 207 special clear. So is there a specific boat outside color scheme that should be followed when painting the outside of the boat. Any colors to stay away from? I'm sure the brighter the faster they fade.

    3. And I have never named a boat before. I have had the name picked out for my retirement boat for 30+ years, but this build will not have that one. Any guidelines?

    I know that last two questions are trivial. Just a few thoughts that were going through my head last night. And no disrespect to any other designers, especially Mr. Welsford, I love his designs also. Thanks again for all the help everyone.
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up.” by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    3. My all time favorite boat name if "Floater."

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Hey Sailrat, once you're done following the herd I've got a line on a nice American-made design you might appreciate.

    I'd bet this is what he is alluding to:
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by SailRat View Post
    I'm listening? Let me see it. Is it a double ender? The only way it might change is if it's a double ender that is maybe traditional lapstrake and has about the same dimensions and doesn't weigh twice what the ST or CY does. That's about the only way. Sorry
    Oh, it has to be a double-ender? Alright. In my defense, I don't actually read these threads before commenting so it's not like I had any way of knowing that.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by SailRat View Post
    Are there any good threads/links to building frames/strongbacks for the build that could be mobile and on casters. I know it's very critical to keep the boat absolutely straight and square when doing the laps, but has anyone built a frame that could be rolled around without losing that? I don't need to roll it across the yard, but to reposition it in different places in my shop would be great. With the strip canoes and kayaks it's very easy to do that, but something this big it will be the first time I have done it.
    Lots of folks use mobile jigs, I followed their examples and made on for my build. Mine used a mobile jig kit with fixed rear wheels, front pads, and a cam operated caster that can be retracted. I marked locations on the work floor, and made sure it was back on these for building.


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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    Lots of folks use mobile jigs, I followed their examples and made on for my build. Mine used a mobile jig kit with fixed rear wheels, front pads, and a cam operated caster that can be retracted. I marked locations on the work floor, and made sure it was back on these for building.

    I think this is exactly what I want to build mine on. Looks solid and mobile. When you move it, other than level, does the frame torque any to where it would throw the build out of shape until it's back in the intended build location. Wondering if I put a plank or two on it and then rolled it out of the way while the epoxy set up would it affect it? I hope that makes sense? It looks very solid - nice job! Those are some very straight 2x6's - how did you find them so straight? I have had terrible luck lately finding straight 2x6's and 2'x8's. And very little knots! Good Job.
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up.” by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    It seemed solid enough, but I would say don't move the jig until the epoxy has set.

    After making the ladder frame, the next step for my Welsford build was aligning and leveling each station. That was the critical part, the ladder did not have to be exactly straight.

    Leveled with a combination of water tube, laser and bubble level:


  18. #88
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Sailrat, I do think you should start a new thread covering your build, rather than continue this discussion in the designs part of the forum. It will make it easier to follow, and you will be much more likely to get a fresh new set of people interested in the topic. I think you will be able to get better service out of your forum this way.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Sailrat, I do think you should start a new thread covering your build, rather than continue this discussion in the designs part of the forum. It will make it easier to follow, and you will be much more likely to get a fresh new set of people interested in the topic. I think you will be able to get better service out of your forum this way.
    James, Thank you. I wasn't sure. I wondered if that would probably be the better way to go. I appreciate the advice and will re-post the last few questions there in a new build thread. That almost makes it official, huh? Kind of scary just thinking about it.
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up.” by Henry David Thoreau

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Sail Rat, I don't know how old you are but if you are under say 50 and in reasonably good shape you may tire of the snooty tern if you sail with faster boats. The ST is a good sailing boat for it's type but no where near sport boat performance. It's not the roomiest or most comfortable on overnight trips sleeping aboard. I certainly don't mean to confuse you but there are lots of choices and compromises to make and the reason a lot of us have multiple boats. Good luck with your build.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by KMacDonald View Post
    Sail Rat, I don't know how old you are but if you are under say 50 and in reasonably good shape you may tire of the snooty tern if you sail with faster boats. The ST is a good sailing boat for it's type but no where near sport boat performance. It's not the roomiest or most comfortable on overnight trips sleeping aboard. I certainly don't mean to confuse you but there are lots of choices and compromises to make and the reason a lot of us have multiple boats. Good luck with your build.
    Thank you for your help. Unfortunately I am over 50 - not far over, but over none the less. And I'm not really interested in a more performance oriented sailboat right now - already done the racing thing many years ago. This one is just planned for enjoying the day and maybe be able to do a couple longer trips with my daughter. If you have been following you know I was initially planning on a Caledonia Yawl, so I did drop down to maybe get the more performance oriented double ender Iain designs. But it still needs to be a beachable/packable workhorse I guess. But it does need to be a double ender for my soul. I might at some point build something bigger or more performance wise, but this is probably going to be just to play with. I hope to maybe eventually do a few other builds along with the Sooty, but not sure what they might be. I have plans to build a sailing canoe (Bufflehead) or a SOF sailboat and one of those might be the next project if I don't do something larger that both of those. We'll see. But thanks for the input. Ed
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up.” by Henry David Thoreau

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf and Turf View Post
    You could always chase them away with a bucket of lutefisk, but then you'd end up with a family of Norwegians.

    I have a set of Arctic Tern/Sooty Tern plans idling in my plans drawer. Decided on the shorter AT for building space required reasons as much as any other, but am doing a Goat Island Skiff first just to get sailing sooner than later.
    Did you build the Arctic Tern? Totally happy? Would you wish for something different?

    I'm continually vacillating between Arctic Tern, Sooty Tern as I have plans for both.

    I'm pushing 70 and thinking the smaller more lightweight Arctic Tern may be a better choice.

    I'm about to start my build and still go back and forth. It probably would not be so hard a choice were I not feverish and infected by all the McMullen posts.

    All the best,
    Rob Macks
    Laughing Loon Custom Canoes & Kayaks
    http://www.laughingloon.com/
    207-549-3531


    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.” - Chinese Proverb

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    I apologize, Rob. If it’s any consolation, I am self-aware of the degree of madness hitherto displayed, if not necessarily entirely contrite about it.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    Lots of folks use mobile jigs, I followed their examples and made on for my build. Mine used a mobile jig kit with fixed rear wheels, front pads, and a cam operated caster that can be retracted. I marked locations on the work floor, and made sure it was back on these for building.

    I think that jig cost more than my last boat....

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