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Thread: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Garth Jones View Post
    Oh, I get busy schedules! If not this fall, there is always next spring/summer. Yes, Lake Arthur is quite near to McConnell's Mill. The lake is not large but very pretty. Because of the land forms, the wind tends to be shifty and strange. Sailing there is great practice. Lake Pymantuning, which is rather closer to you, is much larger and has generally better wind. However, it's an hour farther up the road for me, so I don't get up there as often as I would like.

    The boat that originally caught my eye was the Haven 12 1/2. It's a lovely boat but has several challenges, among them: a) 21 stations in 16 feet, b) a 600 pound lead keel, c) need for pricey custom trailer because of weight and shape, and d) $3K+ of bronze hardware if you want that classic Herreshoff look.

    I'm a professional furniture maker, so I have plenty of experience with wood a good shop, but building boats was new to me back in 2004. My wife and I went to Wooden Boat School for a couple of weeks in 2004 - I was in the shop, and she was on the water sailing. I met Bill Thomas, one of the instructors, who had just built a Ness Yawl for a customer. We had many good discussions about how well the boat sailed, how they were (vastly easier) to build compared to the Haven, cost, etc. I looked at many more boat designs but kept coming back to Outred's double enders because of how beautiful they are. Finally it came down to the Ness Yawl or the Caledonia Yawl. The other boats were too small. The debate was the same - sports car versus SUV. My wife and I were both around 40 years old, quite limber, and liked a lively boat, so we went with the NY. If I had to chose today, I would probably build a Sooty Tern, just because I like the 6 strake hull. If I regularly had more people to take, or camped, etc., I would go with a CY. I still love Outred's boats and have never regretted my choice. They are lovely to look at and a joy to sail.

    Building the boat took about 14 months, but some of that time not much progress happened. The boat was built on a covered but otherwise outside deck, so no epoxy work (or much else) in the middle of winter. Also, I did have to pay some attention to my customers.

    Cheers,
    Garth
    I think you probably made a wise choice. I love his designs and I'm sure I would be happy with any one of them. I will probably go with the CY just for the camping space on-board. I hope to make it down on a regular basis after it's done to the Ten Thousands area and Keys of Florida, and maybe Georgian Bay and North Channel, my two main trip destinations with the boat plus maybe Maine Island Trail and Lake Chaplain. I too am getting a little older so I'm sure the smoother CY will be appreciated later in life. I just turned 50 this year.

    I have always loved the double enders and have looked on occasion at purchasing a larger Nor'Sea 27 for sailing and trips but not sure I want to deal with all the weight and towing since it's well over 10k. And coming from a more backpacking/rock climbing/mountaineering back ground I'm sure the beach camping will be loved just as much. I just won't have to carry a 70 backpack to do it. Thank you for all the advice, they are very much appreciated, it was nice to hear you never regretted your choice. Ed
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by SailRat View Post
    I hope to make it down on a regular basis after it's done to the Ten Thousands area and Keys of Florida, and maybe Georgian Bay and North Channel, my two main trip destinations with the boat plus maybe Maine Island Trail and Lake Chaplain. I too am getting a little older so I'm sure the smoother CY will be appreciated later in life. I just turned 50 this year.
    ...
    And coming from a more backpacking/rock climbing/mountaineering back ground I'm sure the beach camping will be loved just as much. I just won't have to carry a 70 backpack to do it. Thank you for all the advice, they are very much appreciated, it was nice to hear you never regretted your choice. Ed
    Georgian Bay and the North Channel--you definitely have to make that a priority!

    As others have said, you can't really go wrong with any of the boats you considered. However, just in case you haven't completely made up your mind, I'll suggest a look at this thread:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ats&highlight=

    which explores the idea that for sail and oar cruising, there seem to be (kind of, sort of) two distinct sizes in the approaches of different designers. The CY (20' and beamy) is definitely a "big" sail and oar boat, with all those advantages and disadvantages. As a couple of examples of the "small" sail and oar boat, you'd have John Welsford's Walkabout (16') and Ross Lillistone's Phoenix III (15')--with all the advantages and disadvantages of being smaller and lighter.

    I've cruised extensively in the Great Lakes (Superior, Michigan, North Channel, Georgian Bay) in my brother's "small" Phoenix III, and have also done the Everglades Challenge in that boat in 2013. For whatever one person's opinions are worth, I've come to appreciate the ADVANTAGES of a smaller boat more than I dislike the disadvantages. I've found the 15' Phoenix III to be a perfect solo cruising boat, and a very good two-person cruising boat (with room to sleep aboard comfortably for two big adults). Yeadon, McMullen, et al seem to prefer the bigger boats for their adventures, but I can attest that for the Great Lakes a smaller design would be a perfectly good performer as well.

    I've concluded that rowing is important enough for me that I'm happy to accept the compromises of a narrower hull with lower freeboard--and no one but my brother will ever go sailing with me anyway, so I don't need more room. I think the need for a good rowing boat might especially be the case for the Everglades if you want to take the inside route (which is cool--that's where all the gators are, and it's the only way you'll earn that coveted gator tooth (which, I think, has NEVER been done by a monohull sailboat, though we came close and probably could have in the Phoenix III).

    Anyway, you are so right about small boat camping (especially sleeping aboard) being an extremely pleasant change of pace after backpacking and climbing (which was my own entry point into the outdoors). These days I get bored very easily on keelboats--that seems to be the case with a lot of us who are into the sail and oar type cruising.

    Whatever you decide to build (smaller boat = faster build!), you're going to have a blast. Just in case you haven't seen them already, here are a few of my trip threads from the Great Lakes for inspiration:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Bay&highlight=

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Oar&highlight=

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...gon&highlight=

    Enjoy!

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 10-02-2015 at 03:55 PM.
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  3. #38

    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    There is a very detailed set of instructional videos by Geoff Kerr dedicated to building the CY at the Off Center Harbor site. You do need to pay for access, but unless you are an old hand, I'd bet you'd find it money well spent. And there is lots of other good stuff there too.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Gopez View Post
    If always sailing with crew...then, I would consider three sails for your CY.
    From "the Oughtred" himself:

    "The jib-gaff-main-mizzen rig is a little more complex to set up, but is still easily handled, and quickly adjusted to suit the breeze. The short main mast is easily stepped; it presents minimal windage when the sail is reefed; in severe conditions the boat still balances and gets to windward under jib and mizzen alone."

    I'm sure the boat is great fun to sail with that rig and is highly adjustable (I'm not arguing with Iain!). However, the main mast requires stays and the boom/mainsail/yard assembly is very difficult to get out of the way if you wan to row the boat. I originally built my Ness Yawl with a sloop rig and switching to rowing was a real pain. The big lug sail can just be dropped into the bottom of the boat and set to one side, freeing the thwart for rowing and the entire cockpit for camping. Also, having a rig with no stays takes the time to rig from trailing from about 40 minutes to 5, and it can be done alone. I have always liked the look of the CY's three sail rig, but if I were going to built one, I'd built the lug yawl rig for the reasons I've stated.

    Cheers,
    Garth

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    I can rig my Folkboat that has 2 shrouds and a forstay in less than 40 minutes! There is no reason given the right set up that attatching 2 shrouds and a fore stay is going to prolong your setting up time beyond an extra 5 minutes. Granted it is not as quick to dowse as a free standing lug should you wish to drop the rig for rowing, but if the extra few minutes is a concern, i would question why you are travelling in a sail and oar boat in the first place. For the CY, the gunter and jib rig would be my preferred choice.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I can rig my Folkboat that has 2 shrouds and a forstay in less than 40 minutes! There is no reason given the right set up that attatching 2 shrouds and a fore stay is going to prolong your setting up time beyond an extra 5 minutes. Granted it is not as quick to dowse as a free standing lug should you wish to drop the rig for rowing, but if the extra few minutes is a concern, i would question why you are travelling in a sail and oar boat in the first place. For the CY, the gunter and jib rig would be my preferred choice.
    There are days in sail & oar when every minute counts due to the current on your nose. Say you just spent an hour working to windward against a bit of current so you can get around a point to your campsite, but suddenly the wind dies and it's time to get on the oars. Five minutes adrift versus two minutes in the river headed the wrong direction makes a big difference.

    That rig above with the jib, main, mizzen is interesting and probably fun to tweak - if you pack along a small motor - but if oars are your co-propulsion then those shrouds and stays (and all the windage that go with it) are not of any advantage.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    There are days in sail & oar when every minute counts due to the current on your nose. Say you just spent an hour working to windward against a bit of current so you can get around a point to your campsite, but suddenly the wind dies and it's time to get on the oars. Five minutes adrift versus two minutes in the river headed the wrong direction makes a big difference.

    That rig above with the jib, main, mizzen is interesting and probably fun to tweak - if you pack along a small motor - but if oars are your co-propulsion then those shrouds and stays (and all the windage that go with it) are not of any advantage.

    Granted it is not THE most efficient rig for hardcore sail n oar jihadists, but the OP, given the fact he was even considering a 6M whaler . i dont think falls into the small niche that you are part of.

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    Default

    I would not minimize what I do as a niche. We know what actually works. That's why we do it that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Gopez View Post
    If always sailing with crew...then, I would consider three sails for your CY.
    From "the Oughtred" himself:

    "The jib-gaff-main-mizzen rig is a little more complex to set up, but is still easily handled, and quickly adjusted to suit the breeze. The short main mast is easily stepped; it presents minimal windage when the sail is reefed; in severe conditions the boat still balances and gets to windward under jib and mizzen alone."

    This is the rig set-up I was planning on going with, but for some reason I didn't for the life of me think it had stays and shrouds. My complete oversight I guess on that decision. I will have to think about this a little more before deciding on the rig. I can see the pluses and minuses of both. I liked the looks of the 3 sails, and coming from my sailing background is a little more familiar to me than the lug rig, which I have never sailed before. I'm sure not a huge deal, but none the less a small one in my mind. I can for sure see the advantages of being able to drop the mast easier for rowing. And if one of my main trip ideas is the 10,000 islands area of Florida the shrouds and stays would for sure get in the way of the mangroves in the back waters.
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Granted it is not THE most efficient rig for hardcore sail n oar jihadists, but the OP, given the fact he was even considering a 6M whaler . i dont think falls into the small niche that you are part of.
    Agreed - and, I guess about tossed aside too for that reason.... The stays and the shrouds are I think one of the main reasons for me to maybe pass on the 6m Whaler. Love the looks, but at this point not sure if it's the way I want to go. But the biggest reason to maybe go ahead and go this route would be for teaching purposes with my daughter. It might be worth the extra effort if it gives me a little more to be able to teach her for later sailing a larger planned boat for retirement.

    I know all are a trade-off and depending on my preferred usage. There has to be compromises. I'm not sure I will ever completely fall into the "only" sail-n-oar category. As age creeps up and ability lessens I will eventually keep finding my way back to the easier method I'm sure - at least to a certain point. I have paddled kayaks and canoes for way too many years to count and I'm sure will row this boat a lot also, I love the exercise and self propulsion aspect of it all. Can I ask a really stupid question?? Is there a way to maybe build the boat to accept both rigs and be able to change it based on it's intended usage or whatever trip or day sail it's going on?? Just a thought. I know two masts, multiple sails, lots, lots more money, etc., but it might be an option for later usage and trip planning.
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Morgan View Post
    There is a very detailed set of instructional videos by Geoff Kerr dedicated to building the CY at the Off Center Harbor site. You do need to pay for access, but unless you are an old hand, I'd bet you'd find it money well spent. And there is lots of other good stuff there too.
    Christopher,

    Those videos are great. I joined their membership a few weeks back just for that reason and watched them all the way thru at least once and a couple of them multiple times. I'm sure I will watch them over and over again before it's done. It actually made me over think the whole process a lot more than I thought I would. Even after reading some of the books on building using this method and all of that, I really didn't think there was that much epoxy or paint usage to "fix", "adjust" or "cover" things because of using plywood or less than perfect woodworking. No disrespect for any of it at all, so please don't anyone cut me apart for my statement, it's not intended to be disrespectful to any builders or woodworkers. I was even warned by my 18 year old son that my OCD is going to drive me nuts in this build. Doing strip boats I can make my cuts perfectly, and if not grab another strip and re-cut it, it's only a small strip and I can re-use that strip in another place. Plus it's "real" wood, not plywood, so it's very pretty exposed. I use plywood in my cabinet/furniture making but I only use Baltic Birch so the less than perfect grades of plywood I don't have to deal with. And Baltic Birch is not bad looking even clear coated so it's not a big deal. But just throwing in extra epoxy to make up the difference in a cut or to just make sure it's there and then cleaning up the squeeze out and then putting a fillet on it to make sure it's smooth for paint will be hard for me to get used to. I never paint any of my wood work - well I shouldn't say never, of all people in this world my wife paints my work, but that is after she beats the hell out of it with hammers, meat tenderizers, screws nails and chains to distress it, then paints it multiple colors and sands half of the crap back off and then stains and varnishes it again. I think it takes her longer to finish her stuff that I build her than me to build it. It should be a great learning experience.

    Thanks for your comment, Ed
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Having a sail rig set up for either one sail or 3 is quite possible, i took a lot of time to work on the rig of the Mariette pram so that she could have a single mast in one position, but also rigged with a mizzen and a jib ,and keeping within the boundries of text book balance. Have a look at Ross Lillistones first mate to see how various rigs can be fitted to the same hull. Depending on the boat, you may just need to fit an extra mast step. Certainly do-able with some thought.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    I was just looking at my 7-strake CY plans and if you build the mast box as per plans no additional step would be required for the Gunter rig mast. You would need a third hole in the Lug step for the mast to nest in and would need some form of partner blocks to hold the mast fore to aft rake angle. Add the plans re-enforcements for the fore stay and chainplates for the shrouds and that should be require no further modification of the deck and hull. However, I would get some input specific for the CY from someone who knows better than I before you commit yourself to this idea.
    Steamboat

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Steamboat View Post
    I was just looking at my 7-strake CY plans and if you build the mast box as per plans no additional step would be required for the Gunter rig mast. You would need a third hole in the Lug step for the mast to nest in and would need some form of partner blocks to hold the mast fore to aft rake angle. Add the plans re-enforcements for the fore stay and chainplates for the shrouds and that should be require no further modification of the deck and hull. However, I would get some input specific for the CY from someone who knows better than I before you commit yourself to this idea.
    Thank you for looking. That should make it a pretty simple solution then. I might go ahead and do that and leave the option open for me to change or add it later. That is great. Thank you.
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Ed,

    The issue with going from sailing to rowing isn't the mast, it's the sail, yard, and boom. The way I had my gunter gaff main rigged getting the main off the mast meant dealing with a loop, with parrell beads, holding the gaff jaws to the mast, four rings holding the sail to the mast, and the nice bronze hardware attaching the boom to the mast. Getting all that apart on the water was not much of an option. Now, that could all be set up to be faster/easier, but still... With the lug rig, the sail, yard, and boom are one unit held up by a single haliyard. Lower the whole affair into the bottom of the boat, bundle it up, set it aside, and it's totally out of the way. No need to strike the mast for rowing. But if you need the mast to go away, to get under a bridge or something, just pull it out of the step/partners, and set it in the bottom of the boat. The mizzen - mast, sail, and boom, is similarly modular and can be set or struck easily on the water.

    Even if schedules and weather don't permit this fall, if you want to see such a rig in action, I'd be happy to take you for a sail.

    Cheers,
    Garth

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    For best rowing performance pull the mast as well. Its windage is remarkable and if there is any old swell running it materially affects the boat's rolling.
    Ben Fuller
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Yep. Ben is entirely correct. Some rigs make dropping the stick an utterly trivial exercise. Others do not.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    For best rowing performance pull the mast as well. Its windage is remarkable and if there is any old swell running it materially affects the boat's rolling.
    Oh, absolutely. But when I want to get back to shore on my little lake in western Pennsylvania when the wind goes flat, swell is not exactly an issue....

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Regarding the gunter rig, no reason not to keep everything attatched to the mast,use the topping lift to raise the boom end vertical with the mast and pull the whole lot out together; it is what i do with my auxillary rig .

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    What is the next size down from the Caledonia Yawl? Is it the Ness Yawl or the Sooty Tern? It seems like they are pretty close - one longer, one wider. That might be where I'm heading to get a little compromise. Yes, it's all compromise I know. Thanks, Ed
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Those two are almost the same boat. The major difference is 4-strake vs. 6-strake. I requested the stretched J-II design which since has been named "Sooty Tern" as a direct replacement for my old Ness Yawl.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Those two are almost the same boat. The major difference is 4-strake vs. 6-strake. I requested the stretched J-II design which since has been named "Sooty Tern" as a direct replacement for my old Ness Yawl.
    James, Thank you as always. That does make a little more sense. I'm waiting for Iain to send me his "whole" package for me to ponder over. He said he had a bunch of other things to send me to help in my decision making. Plus some scale pieces I think he said was in 1/2" scale to "mock" up to get a better idea of size differences there are between the models. I also ordered his Oar plans because I felt I needed to order something for all the help he has been until I make up my fickle mind. Not much, but I figured it was a "good faith" purchase and I will need some oars anyways, and have a few pieces of rough cut lumber that might just be perfect for them.

    Can you by any chance tell me about how many total sheets of plywood are needed for one of these builds - trying to decide if the extra cost is worth it for a different marine plywood brands/types just to have a "prettier" face for bright work. Per another post/thread I have going I'm trying to see if it's worth it. Iain wondered if there was a different plywood I could use to try and "not" paint as much as possible. Or even veneer my own. And I really wasn't sure about any of them. I only ever use Baltic Birch plywood for my cabinet cases when needed, and other than that everything else is real wood. And my strip boats are of course mostly cedar, so marine plywood will be a new experience for me.

    ps. I'm assuming the 6 strake is the Sooty - I know I could look myself, sorry. I prefer the more strakes.
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Hi Ed,

    Yes, the Sooty Tern is the 6 strake boat and the Ness Yawl is 4 strake. My boat took about 8.5 sheets of plywood, and that included the hull, centerboard trunk, and, the biggest extra, decks. I built it all from 9 mm occume ply, which is lighter and less expensive than sapelle ply.

    I painted my entire hull. The thwart, gunwales, decks, spars, and various trim pieces are varnished. That's enough spring re-varnishing for me! James's boat is even more painted, but given how he uses her it totally makes sense. In this thread, you've talked about wanting to take your boat to Georgian Bay and/or down to Florida. Those trips are bunches of miles on trailers plus camp sailing. It's just my opinion, but I suspect you will be happier with a robust, easier to fix than varnish, painted hull.

    Stability - the CY is six inches longer than the NY, but a foot wider in beam. If you stand up on a side seat in an unballasted CY, that side sinks a bit but the boat is still quite calm and stable. Do that in an unballasted NY, and you are going swimming! I keep 120 pounds of lead (in 6 20 pound bricks) under the floorboards around the CB trunk. That way I can stand anywhere on the boat without going in the drink, the boat is stiffer in the wind, and the roll rate in a gust is noticeably less. The boat also punches through chop a bit better. I know James has gone back and forth on ballast, but he usually has quite a bit of camping gear with him.

    Cheers,
    Garth

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    I don't remember how many sheets. It's not like it's a whole lot, though. And I think you'd be making the gravest mistake to skimp on anything but the absolute best for the essential structure of your boat's hull. If you have to save some money, do it in places that are easily replaced and upgraded later, not the permanent foundation of your build. Use the top-shelf marine-grade ply, is what I'd say.

    As far as paint goes, the longer and harder I use my boat, the more areas get painted. You should pick what you want, of course, but I've reluctantly come to admit that the varnishing/sailing ratio becomes kind of a zero-sum equation in many respects unless you can afford to pay to have it done. I have inexorably been driven to reduce my varnishing to only the must-haves despite myself.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    I don't remember how many sheets. It's not like it's a whole lot, though. And I think you'd be making the gravest mistake to skimp on anything but the absolute best for the essential structure of your boat's hull. If you have to save some money, do it in places that are easily replaced and upgraded later, not the permanent foundation of your build. Use the top-shelf marine-grade ply, is what I'd say.

    As far as paint goes, the longer and harder I use my boat, the more areas get painted. You should pick what you want, of course, but I've reluctantly come to admit that the varnishing/sailing ratio becomes kind of a zero-sum equation in many respects unless you can afford to pay to have it done. I have inexorably been driven to reduce my varnishing to only the must-haves despite myself.
    On the contrary. I'm looking for the best plywood grade period, not at all a price consideration. If it comes down to the differences between quality and appearance - I will always chose quality. I have a real bad habit of overbuilding things and I'm sure these questions are proof of that trait. I guess then the Okoume is probably the better of them than based on all things. But it does make me wonder why the distributor states the Meranti is better and is more waterproof throughout. Where the Okoume must be edge sealed. Even being cheaper.

    And I'm sure the wanting the boat to be finished more bright comes from doing the strip canoes and kayaks where they are always just clear coated, even to the point of getting the best "clear" epoxies and ones that are not as "yellow". It might be better off to just come to the terms that a lot of the boat is going to be painted and I'm sure that is why they have evolved that way. It does make sense. Do you want to deal with a teak deck and all the varnishing or a painted/non-skid deck and enjoy the boat and just sail and relax. Makes sense. Sorry for all the superfluous questions.
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Garth Jones View Post
    Hi Ed,

    Yes, the Sooty Tern is the 6 strake boat and the Ness Yawl is 4 strake. My boat took about 8.5 sheets of plywood, and that included the hull, centerboard trunk, and, the biggest extra, decks. I built it all from 9 mm occume ply, which is lighter and less expensive than sapelle ply.

    I painted my entire hull. The thwart, gunwales, decks, spars, and various trim pieces are varnished. That's enough spring re-varnishing for me! James's boat is even more painted, but given how he uses her it totally makes sense. In this thread, you've talked about wanting to take your boat to Georgian Bay and/or down to Florida. Those trips are bunches of miles on trailers plus camp sailing. It's just my opinion, but I suspect you will be happier with a robust, easier to fix than varnish, painted hull.

    Stability - the CY is six inches longer than the NY, but a foot wider in beam. If you stand up on a side seat in an unballasted CY, that side sinks a bit but the boat is still quite calm and stable. Do that in an unballasted NY, and you are going swimming! I keep 120 pounds of lead (in 6 20 pound bricks) under the floorboards around the CB trunk. That way I can stand anywhere on the boat without going in the drink, the boat is stiffer in the wind, and the roll rate in a gust is noticeably less. The boat also punches through chop a bit better. I know James has gone back and forth on ballast, but he usually has quite a bit of camping gear with him.

    Cheers,
    Garth
    Garth, As always, a great help. Thank you. That is a close enough figure for me for the plywood amount. I really never even started to figure the amount needed. It's really a lot less than I thought it was going to be for some reason. And as I just stated to James it does make sense to just paint it and enjoy the boat. I guess I will have to start thinking about colors I want. With my strip boat I just make sure I use the clearest of epoxies and make sure my joint work is perfect and just clear coat it. I've never pained one of my boats. My daughter has done artwork on the surfboards, but not a whole paint type job. Might be a hard thing for me to get used to. And thanks again for the offer to sail and look at your boat. I might have to try and figure a schedule out just for a drive over that way just to get a whole "size" thing going for me. I'm sure it will be well worth it. Ed
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    No need to apologize for questions, Ed. I enjoy the opportunity to give any help to you towards building yourself a lovely new boat. I'm stuck sitting on the couch today nursing a hip flexor strain anyways, so it's giving me something to take my mind off the soreness. I'm just about ready to break out the whiskey as an additional analgesic though, so forgive me if my answers start get less coherent here in the near future.

    I do think that you could hardly do any better in terms of a pre-build research than to go over and visit Garth, see Goldberry for yourself. Seeing a full-size Caledonia Yawl in progress is what spurred me to build my original Ness Yawl back in 1996, and I most certainly wouldn't have made all the right decisions that first time if I hadn't been able to see an Oughtred up close and face-to-face. Plus, Garth is a swell fellow. I'm sure it will be absolutely worth your time.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Hi Ed,

    Any time that it works with our schedules. You can find my phone and email at www.jonesfurnituredesigns.com.

    Cheers,
    Garth

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Regarding the rigging time of a "3 wire" mast compared to a cantilevered stick, having rigged from 8' to 16' "3 wire" dinghies and a cantilever 4m OK dinghy, I don't see nor has it ever taken me 40 minutes to stand-up or rig a 3 wire job!
    40 minutes - 5 minutes = 35 minutes to tighten 2 shackles and "lace" one forestay !!! Give me a break !
    Cheers from Martin B.
    Mandurah, Western Australia
    mcbunny09@gmail.com

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    I still like the idea of maybe putting the placement for both rigging/masts on the boat when I build it and then it's done and I guess I can play with them later. Not sure which mast/sail I will build at first, but if I have the boat set up to handle both setups then it wouldn't be a huge deal to change it later. I do like this idea, it gives it a little flexibility later if needed. Thanks for the great ideas guys.
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by SailRat View Post
    I still like the idea of maybe putting the placement for both rigging/masts on the boat when I build it. . .
    Sure. That's what I did when I built my Ness Yawl, installing the mast steps for both the single sail and the yawl versions. After I figured out which way I preferred, I built my next boat with just the one I liked.

    Next boat? Of course there's a next boat. Don't be silly.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Funny that you say that because I was just re-reading an article last night on my iPad/Kindle for my planned next boat - I thought I was maybe going to go with a small traditional lapstrake sailing dinghy of some sorts, don't have room for a larger boat, even though I would love to try my had at building a big wooden boat, but for years I have had another boat in mind (and yes, it's another double ender). There was an article in a Woodenboat issue back in mid 2006 (july/aug I think) and it was a Shearwater boat that was coverted to SOF - bright yellow and it was on the cover of the magazine, stretched to 18ft and set up for sailing. Not sure why I like this one and I know it's going the opposite direction in building skills probably but I wanted to try SOF and I really already have too many kayaks, not my words, my wife and kids. It might be a cedar/canvas canoe with all the bells and whistles and steam bending ribs though. But I think it will probably be the SOF - it might even get started while doing the CY or ST, it terrible to have an empty strongback that it could be built on just sitting around. It could probably be built on my canoe strongback without much modification and rolled around out of the way. I think the article said it was only 4 1/2 ft wide if I remember correctly. Not much bigger than a canoe.

    shearwater.jpg
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    You used a phrase, "too many kayaks." Is that English? It sounds like gibberish to me. Does it mean anything? :-)

    And yes, it is a crime to let a good strongback just sit there unused.

    Garth

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Garth Jones View Post
    You used a phrase, "too many kayaks." Is that English? It sounds like gibberish to me. Does it mean anything? :-)
    Garth
    He must speak Klingon!
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Funny stuff guys. And no matter what happens with a CY or ST build there will be another kayak build happening/starting sometime later next year. My daughter wants a lake kayak of her own. She has river boat and I was waiting for her to get a little larger so I didn't build something she would grow out of. She just turned 12 last week and is already 5' 5" and I'm hoping she is about done so she has been looking over plans, but I think I posted a comment someplace about making my own by copying a fiberglass/Kevlar Necky kayak I have - an Arluk 1.9. She has paddled it and it's pretty narrow but I think she would be fine with one herself, so the plans are to make my own molds to replicate the boat - kind of work backwards at first. We'll see if it comes out the way I want it too. If nothing else it will give me a start on wanting to try and duplicate a We-no-nah canoe also. There are a few designs I like they offer and I might rent one for a week from a local shop and then just make molds for it to duplicate that too. All good stuff until my wife makes me rent a storage room to store them all in. She is tired of them hanging in our greenhouse and having to reach under the canoes for the lawn mower. Even if they are out of the way.

    Klingon - that is funny. I think I actually snorted when I read that at my daughters softball game tonight - I got some really weird looks!
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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