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Thread: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

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    Default Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Wasn't sure if my question in the depths of the Caledonia Yawl and Dory thread was seen. Does anyone have a direct comparison of these three boats (maybe 4) or for that matter any of the Oughtred Double Enders side by side. Looking for pics or maybe plan comparisons. For the few inches or foot or so it sure seems like there is a huge difference in loyalty to any one design???

    I have been writing back and forth with Iain today and he is sending me information. I think it's down to these three. He was very helpful, which makes me want to go with one of his designs. Plus there is a huge following to his double enders. I was also thinking about the 6 Metre Whaler by Welsford and Mr. Welsford from his posts on this forum sounds just as helpful so I think that is a toss up, but can't seem to find anything to compare and contrast these two designers and plans/builds. Differences in building, sailing, etc. Which might be harder or easier to build and/or best for beach camping.

    Any help would be great. Sorry if this is basically an extension of my other post, I just thought maybe a more direct question might be helpful. Also Mr. McMullen's Sooty Tern was referenced by Mr. Oughtred, which I thought was very nice. Of which I think I have read all his posts on Rowan - I was completely ready to order the CY plans until his threads kept me busy for a few nights. All good stuff. I know there is a trade off in each one, and I'm sure it will come down to a lot of personal choices, I'm also sure that as my wife always tells me "I'm overthinking this crap - just pick!" Thanks in advance, Ed

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Problem with Sooty Tern is it comes with a whole family of James McMullens who immediately move in under your front porch.
    - Mike

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf and Turf View Post
    Problem with Sooty Tern is it comes with a whole family of James McMullens who immediately move in under your front porch.
    That is some funny stuff right there!

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Yes, that was extremely well done.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Okay, despite the abuse*, I just can't not comment on a thread with this title. Plus, I actually have actual experience with actually sailing all three of them on actual sailing trips--which I know is not really playing by the rules when it comes to expressing an opinion on the forum.

    Well, they're actually all pretty similar in terms of building. That's not how to divvy them up. You're gonna have to do about the same things with roughly the same size stack of money to build any one of them.

    Where they fit into two distinct groups is really all about how much you want to favor rowing, and how many people you want to cram aboard. If you want to be able to comfortably row longer distances, the ST and NY have an advantage. If you are planning to go ahead and just use an outboard regularly, then just go with the Caledonia. The extra buoyancy of the CY will come in handy as you sit there getting fatter and fatter. The CY is more stable, holds more stuff, and is certainly safer for small kids or non-sailorly passengers. The ST and NY are more squirrelly and temperamental, better suited to active sailors than to comfort-oriented sailors. The compromises required to make them decent for rowing are inescapable.

    In order: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl, Arctic Tern, Sooty Tern




    *or possibly because of it. You'll have to ask my therapist.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    I would gather that any of the Oughtred boats are going to be a lighter build than the 6m whaler,if that matters. I prefer the whaler for its possible outboard in a well set up. Would not expect it to row or sail as well in light going as the others, if that matters. Build the boat that pleases you most in looks, as they are all pretty much capable of doing the same thing; unless you have higher priorities for certain qualities?

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf and Turf View Post
    Problem with Sooty Tern is it comes with a whole family of James McMullens who immediately move in under your front porch.
    Topsides of the Month Award goes to Surf and Turf.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    ...If you are planning to go ahead and just use an outboard regularly, then just go with the Caledonia. The extra buoyancy of the CY will come in handy as you sit there getting fatter and fatter...
    Shootin' for that Topsides Award yerself, James! ;-)
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Is there anyone that would be able to comment on using one of these designs in the Everglades/Florida Keys area and tell me what might work better? That is one of my intended areas of exploration in the future and based on my research with a planned trip there to the 10,000 islands area by canoe this coming year it sounds like maybe something more for rowing would be better. Which might cut out the 6 Meter and the Caledonia. I hope one day to also get up to Georgian Bay and the North Channel which I have a feeling is the opposite of what is needed in the Southern Florida area.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Well thats actually ok, if you put a saucer of buttered rum out just before bedtime, and can put up with them singing and dancing under your window all night they're not so bad to have around. Put it this way, you wont need a guard dog to keep burglars at bay.

    John Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf and Turf View Post
    Problem with Sooty Tern is it comes with a whole family of James McMullens who immediately move in under your front porch.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Are you cruising with another person, or racing solo?

    As mentioned, one of the primary criteria should be if you're going to be sleeping two or one aboard. If it's two I'd go bigger. I had the pleasure to row a CY and it rows very nicely and sails fast. You can sail&oar it no problem. Under oars CY will be slower than a NY or a ST but in my opinion, a little slower under oar power is a good tradeoff for a comfortable nights sleep and adequate gear storage and room to move about when you're under a tent and it's pouring out and the humidity is at 100% and tempers are short. They are all very adequate boats, they all move along nicely, they all have similar drafts. None of these boats suck.

    Maybe you need to see some of these in person. Make an effort, it'll give your large monetary and time investment in the build more return. Seeing a boat in person will answer so many questions you didn't even know you had.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf and Turf View Post
    Problem with Sooty Tern is it comes with a whole family of James McMullens who immediately move in under your front porch.
    Home run!!!!!!

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    Are you cruising with another person, or racing solo?

    As mentioned, one of the primary criteria should be if you're going to be sleeping two or one aboard. If it's two I'd go bigger. I had the pleasure to row a CY and it rows very nicely and sails fast. You can sail&oar it no problem. Under oars CY will be slower than a NY or a ST but in my opinion, a little slower under oar power is a good tradeoff for a comfortable nights sleep and adequate gear storage and room to move about when you're under a tent and it's pouring out and the humidity is at 100% and tempers are short. They are all very adequate boats, they all move along nicely, they all have similar drafts. None of these boats suck.

    Maybe you need to see some of these in person. Make an effort, it'll give your large monetary and time investment in the build more return. Seeing a boat in person will answer so many questions you didn't even know you had.
    Thank you very much, all of these comments are great additions to my decision making. I initially was all set on purchasing the CY plans - and then things started to get into my head about choices (like my wife says - decide already) and then I over thought it all. My sleeping situation will more than likely be for two most of the time - myself and my daughter - who is as large as an adult even thou she is only 12. Maybe at some point my wife if my daughter doesn't go. But a boat/boom tent is planned so onboard sleeping is important to me. I was at first thinking the CY because of sailing on the Great Lakes which have a tendency to not be all too pleasant most of the time, so I thought a little extra boat would be better. I don't ever plan on racing - really never even thought about it, didn't know you could on these style boats. But I guess there is the Everglades Challenge which some boats like these participate in. But at my age I think my racing days are numbered to be honest with you.

    I guess I will have to keep an eye open for the different shows to see which ones I might be able to attend to be able to see them in person - great idea, just don't know if my work schedule and daughters tournament softball schedule will allow it. She plays 85+ games a year and I usually work 60+ hours per week - sometimes it's tough. It's easy to escape to the shop to work on things here and there, just not away for too long, and we are usually away for tournament weekends 8-10 times a year. But all great suggestions and thoughts. Thank you, Ed
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by SailRat View Post
    My sleeping situation will more than likely be for two most of the time - myself and my daughter - who is as large as an adult even thou she is only 12. Maybe at some point my wife if my daughter doesn't go. But a boat/boom tent is planned so onboard sleeping is important to me. I was at first thinking the CY because of sailing on the Great Lakes which have a tendency to not be all too pleasant most of the time, so I thought a little extra boat would be better.
    To me, and only to me, this is a no brainer. Go for the Caledonia, and enjoy it. She's a great boat, she's fast, you can still do the Everglades Challenge in her, she won't let you down in heavier weather, she rows fine, and most importantly-- you'll be able to spend 12 hours at a stretch under a tent in the rain and have a little bit of elbow room. It's like buying a mattress-- if you're going to spend a 1/3 of your life laying on one, don't get the lumpy one where your feet hang off the end and your wife's elbow is in your stomach (or worse, your elbow is in hers! You're going to love sailing and camping aboard, the challenge will be convincing others that it's fun... make it easy on yourself).


    EDIT Love your signature

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Yep. Do the CY.

    My one caveat to callsign is: "rows fine" compared to what? I don't think we are using the same standards of measurement here. I've actually rowed both side by side, and I'm a relatively hardcore rower. I could not/would not have done this trip in a CY in the same time frame. I would have been at least a whole day slower, if not more, given the distances of the rowing legs. I would have missed at least one or more gates and had to wait for a whole new tide cycle. It's not the same kind of boat at all, despite the superficial outward similarity.

    But I still think you should probably do a CY given your stated circumstances of wanting to camp on board with your daughter.
    Last edited by James McMullen; 09-30-2015 at 10:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yep. Do the CY.

    My one caveat to callsign is: "rows fine" compared to what? I don't think we are using the same standards of measurement here. I've actually rowed both side by side, and I'm a relatively hardcore rower. I could not/would not have done this trip in a CY in the same time frame. I would have been at least a whole day slower, if not more, given the distances of the rowing legs. I would have missed at least one or more gates and had to wait for a whole new tide cycle. It's not the same kind of boat at all, despite the superficial outward similarity.

    But I still think you should probably do a CY given your stated circumstances of wanting to camp on board with your daughter.
    James, thank you. And since you have been in both, can you comment on which one sails faster or maybe "better or safer"? Yes, I know this is a loaded question. My question is based not so much on my intended trip locations where I might need to row more but more on my weekend day sailing on Lake Erie and the Islands and it being quite unpredictable at times. But it does seem like I keep coming back to the CY for the camping and SUV qualities of it. Not a bad thing I guess. Thanks all for everything so far.
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler



    I was looking at old videos today and thought this might be useful here. I think it shows the interior space of our CY pretty well and as a bonus, my wife rowing us around.

    Jim
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    I wonder how close, at 9:40, he was to being in trouble? Looked like he was completely in control but for that split second of sheet adjustment...I have had my Coquina standing on her ear with my wife scrambling up the washboards like she was shot out of a cannon, and still didn't take water on...I can't gauge how close we were to going all the way over. our lug disenfranchised itself at the tack and turned into a giant spinnaker.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    If I recall correctly that video is a trial with no ballast. Sparrow has 150 lbs of lead around the center board case. It makes a big difference in stability. We've sailed a fair bit, sometimes in gusty conditions and never even come close to dipping the rail. We've also been caught out a few times when the weather changed sooner than we expected. Each time we've handled it by parking the boat (heaving to and then anchoring), pulling the rig masts and all, and rowing home. The last time we had been rowing all morning in no wind and the front blew in early. We had a 5-6 mile upwind pull with a steep chop caused by wind opposing tide, where the wind was sustaining upper twenties and gusting to the mid thirties. I'm not going to say it was pleasant. There were several times where the wind brought us to a complete standstill while we were pulling for all we were worth and there was one good rapid we went through where the chop had built up to 3-4 feet(that was disconcerting) but the boat never took a drop of water except for the rain falling from the sky.

    The Caledonia Yawl is a good boat. I have no doubt at all that the crew will break before the boat does.

    Jim
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by SailRat View Post
    James, thank you. And since you have been in both, can you comment on which one sails faster or maybe "better or safer"?
    I have found the narrower boats are generally faster in lighter winds up until the point that the broader CY gains the advantage of being able to stay on her feet easier and then may take the lead upwind or reaching. There's no question that the CY is more stable and less twitchy, though. The ST/NY requires more active attention to sail. The sports car/SUV comparison is not too bad, really.

    The entire key to this puzzle is the "oar" component of sail & oar. That's it. That's all. Rowing vs. sailing requires compromise. You can't have it all. If you could, that's what we would all have.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yep. Do the CY.

    My one caveat to callsign is: "rows fine" compared to what?
    I have rowed the CY. I have watched many others row the CY and cruise for multiple days. I have seen many NYs under oar power alongside the CYs. It rows fine as in: One can happily cruise in this boat without an outboard and still make good ground under oar. As I clearly stated, it won't be as rapido as a NY/ST but the CY is certainly no piggish back-breaking despicable rowboat that one wants to burn to the waterline at the end of the day. The CY would have done your trip just fine, albeit with different timing. The comparison is against cruising with a companion aboard, or racing solo. If racing or cruising solo over long distances and anticipating lots of rowing, then certainly get skinnier boat. Otherwise, the CY rows just fine (and sails phenomenally well!) for the OPs stated objective, which admittedly, may not meet your high level of "hardcore" but I'm not in the business of comparing different person's hardcoreness.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Callsign, we are agreeing. I think a CY is probably better for someone who wants the extra room for regular crew and does not need to emphasize rowing performance.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Well thats actually ok, if you put a saucer of buttered rum out just before bedtime, and can put up with them singing and dancing under your window all night they're not so bad to have around. Put it this way, you wont need a guard dog to keep burglars at bay.

    John Welsford
    You could always chase them away with a bucket of lutefisk, but then you'd end up with a family of Norwegians.

    I have a set of Arctic Tern/Sooty Tern plans idling in my plans drawer. Decided on the shorter AT for building space required reasons as much as any other, but am doing a Goat Island Skiff first just to get sailing sooner than later.
    - Mike

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Gopez View Post
    Great video Jim!
    I've been to Juneau several times and can recognize your beautiful sailing grounds. Protected?...yes, very! Great for the CY and rowing...and the type of fun your having here.
    I'm used to sailing in more wind. Big gusts too. Shifting swirling gusts. These big open boats with tons of sail area and tender nature (due to being great rowers) are beautiful...but imagine being in a CY with the lug yawl rig and your family...and a huge gust of wind hits you. Really. Think about it.

    Thread title says..."maybe six meter whaler".

    This is your boat...

    By any chance do you have this (6 Meter Whaler) in a side-by-side comparison of the CY? What in your opinion makes this a better heavy weather sailor? I'm really not sure of the differences or the similarities of the two boats. I just know I like the looks and the designer - plus it's a close match to the CY - but maybe not. Do you have any numbers to help me on that part? Thanks for your comment and recommendation.
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    I have found the narrower boats are generally faster in lighter winds up until the point that the broader CY gains the advantage of being able to stay on her feet easier and then may take the lead upwind or reaching. There's no question that the CY is more stable and less twitchy, though. The ST/NY requires more active attention to sail. The sports car/SUV comparison is not too bad, really.

    The entire key to this puzzle is the "oar" component of sail & oar. That's it. That's all. Rowing vs. sailing requires compromise. You can't have it all. If you could, that's what we would all have.
    James, Thank you for your response. This I think has made my mind up between the ST/NY and the CY. I think being that this will be the first boat that my daughter will learn to grow to love sailing on (and learn to sail!) and wanting to have the ability to be able to pack a decent amount of gear and all of that I think the CY might be the better choice. I might just go ahead and build a motor well in it for "just in case". Probably be a good idea for when I'm a little older anyways.

    I don't have a problem with "my" boat being a little twitchy - hell I've dumped may smaller sailboats in my racing days on Lake Erie, but maybe not for a young learning sailor like my daughter. Plus I'm sure the extra stability will make it a much better camping platform like many have already suggested. Thanks again for the help. I think as soon as Mr. Oughtred gets me his catalog I will order the CY plans. Someone also said he has plans in there for building oars - are there any other smaller projects in his catalog to build other than just boats. I know he has been extremely nice in our correspondence the last couple days.
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    If I recall correctly that video is a trial with no ballast. Sparrow has 150 lbs of lead around the center board case. It makes a big difference in stability. We've sailed a fair bit, sometimes in gusty conditions and never even come close to dipping the rail. We've also been caught out a few times when the weather changed sooner than we expected. Each time we've handled it by parking the boat (heaving to and then anchoring), pulling the rig masts and all, and rowing home. The last time we had been rowing all morning in no wind and the front blew in early. We had a 5-6 mile upwind pull with a steep chop caused by wind opposing tide, where the wind was sustaining upper twenties and gusting to the mid thirties. I'm not going to say it was pleasant. There were several times where the wind brought us to a complete standstill while we were pulling for all we were worth and there was one good rapid we went through where the chop had built up to 3-4 feet(that was disconcerting) but the boat never took a drop of water except for the rain falling from the sky.

    The Caledonia Yawl is a good boat. I have no doubt at all that the crew will break before the boat does.

    Jim
    Jim, Thank you for the comments and the video. I've enjoyed watching your build thread and it's given me a wealth of information for my build. Very much enjoyed it all. I just posted on one of the other comments that I think this has made my mind up and will probably order the CY plans. I'm still a little curious between the CY and the 6 Meter Whaler so I hope I can get a little comparison on that but as far as the ST/NY or the CY - it's going to be the slightly larger CY.

    Thanks, Ed
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Good for you, Sailrat! I'm sure you'll be delighted.

    I don't know which version you plan on, but I suspect that the 7-strake version is not particularly more complicated, and might actually be easier to build in some respects than the 4-strake, as you will avoid some of the hassles of putting all that twist in that big ol' garboard. the 4-strake Mk I works just fine though, of course.

    Welsford's 6m Whaler is probably even easier to build with his integral stringer system, but that is a heavier and less rowey boat yet. It is more "seaworthy" in the respect that it has decks, side-decks and a coaming, and is higher-sided to boot. All of these things make it more boat, with the trade-off of having that much more boat you have to haul around.

    It's all compromises.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    James, Thanks again. Probably the 7-strake version. I'm partial to the more strakes for some reason - easier or harder, don't know, but I like all the lines. It's one of the reasons' I like the design of this boat.

    And I've been looking more closely at some 6 Meter Whaler pictures this morning and it really does look like a lot of the inside of the boat is more encumbered and harder to do any real on board camping so that might eliminate that design for me. I really like the sail plan and looks of the boat but I also noticed that the mast has shrouds and stays on it (at least shrouds) which might also lower it on my desired list. Not sure if I want to deal with them on this boat. But love the looks of the bowsprit on the boat, which is probably what got me looking at it. It looks a little more traditionally built I guess. Maybe not? And it does look a lot more sea worthy thou. Thanks again, Ed
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    I'm just down the road from you in Pittsburgh and sail a Ness Yawl that I built about ten years ago. I keep her at Lake Arthur during the summers - she's actually there until around the end of the month. If there's a nice day to go sailing in the next couple of weeks, I'm happy to go. During the winter I keep her at my shop in Pittsburgh.

    That being said, the CY is a great choice. I've only sailed one once, so far, on Lake Union in Seattle. James is right - the CY has much more interior volume and is much more stable. Building one or the other probably won't be too different in terms of difficulty or cost.

    Cheers,
    Garth

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by SailRat View Post
    And I've been looking more closely at some 6 Meter Whaler pictures this morning and it really does look like a lot of the inside of the boat is more encumbered and harder to do any real on board camping so that might eliminate that design for me. I really like the sail plan and looks of the boat but I also noticed that the mast has shrouds and stays on it (at least shrouds) which might also lower it on my desired list. Not sure if I want to deal with them on this boat. But love the looks of the bowsprit on the boat, which is probably what got me looking at it. It looks a little more traditionally built I guess. Maybe not? And it does look a lot more sea worthy thou. Thanks again, Ed
    Can't comment on the buildability of the 6 Meter Whaler as I have not seen the plans.

    However, with regard to the comparative merits of the 2 rigs, it depends to some degree on the consistency of the winds where you are sailing. In our corner of the Pacific, the winds are frequently highly variable, going from a decent sailing breeze to no wind and back again several times a day. The ability to drop an unstayed rig to transition to rowing, and set it back up again when the breeze comes back becomes very important. With a stayed rig, it takes a lot longer and becomes a hassle. If, however, the weather conditions where you sail are such that the winds are more consistent, this might not be so much of an issue.
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  31. #31
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    Jan 2007
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler



    is this that "Chowder Zone" we hear so much about?

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    ^ Bucking horse. Typical of pointy enders.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    is this that "Chowder Zone" we hear so much about?
    Looked like one to me. Isn't that the Severn estuary? Where the Bristol Channel meets the Severn is famous for its strong tidal action.

  34. #34
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    Sep 2015
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Quote Originally Posted by Garth Jones View Post
    I'm just down the road from you in Pittsburgh and sail a Ness Yawl that I built about ten years ago. I keep her at Lake Arthur during the summers - she's actually there until around the end of the month. If there's a nice day to go sailing in the next couple of weeks, I'm happy to go. During the winter I keep her at my shop in Pittsburgh.

    That being said, the CY is a great choice. I've only sailed one once, so far, on Lake Union in Seattle. James is right - the CY has much more interior volume and is much more stable. Building one or the other probably won't be too different in terms of difficulty or cost.

    Cheers,
    Garth
    Garth,

    Thank you for the offer. I do appreciate it. Doubt my schedule will allow it in the next month or so, but the offer is very generous, thank you. My daughter has so many fall ball softball games scheduled in the next month my weekends are crazy. Lake Arthur if I'm correct is up by McConnell's Mills State Park/Slippery Rock where I used to go climbing and rappelling in what seems like forever ago - very pretty area. I might have to place that on my list of lakes to try when the new build is over.

    I figured that any of these designs are going to be pretty close give or take a few extras in material. Probably not enough to make the decision by, just the end product being a little different.

    Can I ask what made you decide on the Ness Yawl over one of the other double enders? Just being curious I guess. How long did it take you to build your NY? Thanks again for the offer.
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

  35. #35
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    Aug 2004
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, Ness Yawl and Sooty Tern Comparisons - Maybe 6 Metre Whaler

    Oh, I get busy schedules! If not this fall, there is always next spring/summer. Yes, Lake Arthur is quite near to McConnell's Mill. The lake is not large but very pretty. Because of the land forms, the wind tends to be shifty and strange. Sailing there is great practice. Lake Pymantuning, which is rather closer to you, is much larger and has generally better wind. However, it's an hour farther up the road for me, so I don't get up there as often as I would like.

    The boat that originally caught my eye was the Haven 12 1/2. It's a lovely boat but has several challenges, among them: a) 21 stations in 16 feet, b) a 600 pound lead keel, c) need for pricey custom trailer because of weight and shape, and d) $3K+ of bronze hardware if you want that classic Herreshoff look.

    I'm a professional furniture maker, so I have plenty of experience with wood a good shop, but building boats was new to me back in 2004. My wife and I went to Wooden Boat School for a couple of weeks in 2004 - I was in the shop, and she was on the water sailing. I met Bill Thomas, one of the instructors, who had just built a Ness Yawl for a customer. We had many good discussions about how well the boat sailed, how they were (vastly easier) to build compared to the Haven, cost, etc. I looked at many more boat designs but kept coming back to Outred's double enders because of how beautiful they are. Finally it came down to the Ness Yawl or the Caledonia Yawl. The other boats were too small. The debate was the same - sports car versus SUV. My wife and I were both around 40 years old, quite limber, and liked a lively boat, so we went with the NY. If I had to chose today, I would probably build a Sooty Tern, just because I like the 6 strake hull. If I regularly had more people to take, or camped, etc., I would go with a CY. I still love Outred's boats and have never regretted my choice. They are lovely to look at and a joy to sail.

    Building the boat took about 14 months, but some of that time not much progress happened. The boat was built on a covered but otherwise outside deck, so no epoxy work (or much else) in the middle of winter. Also, I did have to pay some attention to my customers.

    Cheers,
    Garth

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