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Thread: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

  1. #1
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    Default Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    Thread showing the best 'Sail and Motor' boats in the sub 20ft category or thereabouts.

    Post what you have or what you like, and say what you find it's good points are for the benefit others looking for one. These would be small boats which by dropping the oar only auxilliary, can utilise greater waterline beam, sail carrying power and displacement.

    With greater beam for sail carrying capacity, freeboard, depth, better seated ergonomics (more sitting less squatting), storage and displacement to assist motion comfort, the greater depth and width there is more fishing room and the ability to clomp about somewhat and sleep with greater shoulder width, this category has much to recommend it. New clean 4 stroke petrol or electric engines allow speeds greater than 2-3 knots to be achieved to buck river flows and move quickly out of shipping traffic in windless conditions. Without the restriction of waterline beam or displacement, internal ballast (weight and or water) allows self righting from 90 degrees in some cases. These boats have a universal practicality, especially for families, where the form stability, freeboard and clomp around space is especially valuable.

    Their dissadvantages to accept for the benefits of the practicality of the type would be generally a greater displacement (usually trailer rather than trolley launch, slightly greater requirements of depth at launching, a greater waterline beam and displacement slowing speed under oar compared to narrower/ lighter sail and oar type vessels.

    One of my favourites is the Vivier Ebhen 15/16. Especially meritous is the position of the outboard 'inboard' next to the helm infront of the rudder to assists steerage and eliminate the need to lean over the back of the boat. The 16ft version has an internal waterballast tank for higher wind conditions to increase stability/ sail carrying ability/ improve motion comfort. It's component parts are available as kitted or mylar patterns too, glued lap or strip plank. This is the 'type' of inshore crab/ lobster boat seen either side of the English Channel, typically in Cornwall and Brittany. A boat design optimised to it's LOA.

    This one is the Francois Vivier's Ebihen 15 in glorious colours by Mustafa Bilal...

    [IMG]
    Ebihen 15 by mustafa bilal, on Flickr[/IMG]

    [IMG]Ebihen 15 by mustafa bilal, on Flickr[/IMG]

    [IMG]Ebihen 15 by mustafa bilal, on Flickr[/IMG]

    [IMG]Ebihen 15 by mustafa bilal, on Flickr[/IMG]

    [IMG]Ebihen 15 by mustafa bilal, on Flickr[/IMG]

    [IMG]Ebihen 15 by mustafa bilal, on Flickr[/IMG]

    She has more keel under her, but this Ebihen 16 cutter video shows she is still quick through tacks.



    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 09-11-2015 at 01:50 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.





    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    Welsford whaler. Good outboard/inboard arrangement like Ebihen. And it got a pointy stern for those that just need it!



    And for those that want a reasonably quick build at reasonable low cost, the Michalak Family Skiff.



    I gave up very early trying to row it, its dissapointing; but it does have a dedicated engine cut out and self draining well. For what it is, its been a very happy compromise in its ability, and it still puts a smile on my face under sail. Doddle to launch/use/retrieve single handed if needs be. Not upset to have not sold mine.
    Prefer the inboard set up for having the engine at hand, and asthetic reasons, more easily hidden under a cockpit cover also, but lifting a 2.5 four stroke of the back and stowing in a locker is no big deal, which is the advantage of smaller lighter boats needing less engine.

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    My favourite John Welsford Whaler shot.


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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.



    Vivier's Ebihen 18. May also be rigged as a two masted lugger, unstayed masts, with bowsprit and jib.

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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    Best not forget two of this years recent launching .





    D18 Myst by Don Kurylko. Artwork.

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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Best not forget two of this years recent launching .





    D18 Myst by Don Kurylko. Artwork.
    Some pleasures don't change...



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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    Interesting last photo, do you think that may have been the origins of the "Salcombe Yawl" . Not often you see a small boat towing its own tender.

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    I think so.

    The late great John Leather NA, Oyster. For traditional clinker construction. Seen one cold molded.




    Grp molded version, but shows the style.

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    Tad Roberts Ratty.





    Inboard Outboard arrangement.




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    Keep going down the good river Welsford, Gopez. This awaits you at the bottom.

    Navigator Pr0n.





    The bigger Weslford Pathfinder. More boat, but the forward clean sleeping platform, sub floor storage, inboard outboard, shallow water capability and rig make this boat also deservedly popular.



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    Rather not break out the oars? A sailer would look to increasing the rig height and hoisting better light air sails like a Gennaker. As easily managed as a large genoa. Double's boat speed in light air.

    Welsford AWOL. Planing aft sections.


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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    Another planing sail and motor design.

    Core Sound 17. Fast, easy to sail, easy to rig and quick to build. Don't race against one...


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    For those looking to use local materials in traditional techniques.

    Gartside 124. Notably carvel.



    #139. Notably 7'4" beam. Alot of sail carrying power.



    Sjogin 3. Of the 'i want internal ballast' in the category of Pilgrim, Ratty, Haven 12.5 etc, this one is double ended.


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    Laurent Giles drew one. The Jolly Boat. Plank on stringer Welsford style, it's also a big boat for it's size up close. This grp one is prepped to go around Britain. This one has a notable offset cuddy for assymetrical buoyancy and getting forward.




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    Joel White, able to express a subtlety of line inspired by Francis Herreshoff, has Marsh Cat.



    Looks good lined off too.



    and the Haven 12.5 would be in the ballasted sail and motor group.



    This builder got the outboard inboard.

    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 09-11-2015 at 11:50 AM.

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    North Quay 19. Cedar strip. You have to buy complete.




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    Bayraider 17. Notable yawl mast/ tiller solution.


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    Big fat cat rigged open day boat? Another favourite....



    James Samual. 20ft of load carrier with a flat bottom.

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    John Welsford Pilgrim, John Hargenrader builder. http://jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/pilgrim/



    Pilgrim is notable for its sub floor storage. Ballast or part ballast/ water ballast option. Self righting from 90. Sail plan remains balanced when reefed. A boat for going to windward, healed in poor conditions. No inboard outboard as Pathfinder but might be so fitted. Might be 'the daddy' of this whole group. Slightly greater depth of keel over pathfinder. Pathfinder to be sailed flat and derived from the planing Navigator. Pilgrim given thought to sailing healed and in the Houdini-sundowner line.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 09-11-2015 at 03:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    I'm interested in these boats - particularly the concept and features of the Pilgrim. However I do struggle a bit with the flat slab sides and wonder if they could be disguised a bit with a clever paint scheme.
    I would prefer a round hull shape.
    One you have missed which would be very similar to Pilgrim if built with the same open cockpit arrangement is Gartside's 'Basher'.

    John

    http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/006...g?v=1302200797

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    Hi John,

    I like Basher alot.

    It is the reincarnated 'Shoal Waters' sailed by Charles Stock and written about in his books. I nearly listed it, but thought as it had a cabin, that would be a different kind of list, though you could just arrange it open. For a small cabin boat with shallow draft it's a top pick and would be a good dinghy cruiser for temperate waters: good sail are for light air, heavy displacement for chop and beam sail carrying ability and accomodation to get out of the wind and a dry bunk. Launching fees at 16ft are usually quite modest being designed for dinghies. Charles got a 100 miles in a weekend. Gaff rig powers off wind more than a bermudan sloop, and with these small boats you will have to works with the wind and tide generally, so it can suit quite well.

    One thing Charles commented on was on his cold molded Falcon hull, he could sit just forward of the aft tank holding the tiller and reach all the sail controls, so I think I'd take Basher and put the bulkhead one station further aft to do that and move the cooker to just inside the cabin opening (Paul's been out of the UK for too long!). Basher will be a big boat for the 16ft length (a good boat to build in a standard UK 17-18ft garage) and has a smooth strip plank hull to avoid plank lap turbulence, although some chines can be usefull to push water aside. Plans were published free in Watercraft if your interested. Also if you buy Paul's new book of complied plans you get Basher included, and you get a half price plan voucher included until the end of the year for any other of his designs online! A very generous offer.



    http://store.gartsideboats.com/produ...s-dreams-vol-1
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 09-17-2015 at 05:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    Ireland's entry. The Heir Island Sloop.

    Notably they use a self tacking jib. They sail and race them in Long Island Bay and Roaring Water Bay, South West County Cork.






    http://www.ilenyachts.com/heirboats.htm
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 09-17-2015 at 05:06 AM.

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    John this wouldn't be your thing if you want 'round' hull sides, but on the small cabin front, if you end up thinking that the displacement and rig requires the boat to be on a mooring, Henseval's Insperable has a self draining deck. In many ways the modern incanate gaffer (maximum boat for the length and a high sail area to push it) it can sport a genneker, just one mainsail to bother with. It would be a very good performer. Perhaps the most evolved 'dinghy cruiser' today in many regards. Henseval is a true NA. That engine's weight is calculated into the boats trim angle for instance.



    Video of Insperable

    https://www.facebook.com/53981681272...type=2&theater



    http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/...separable-398/

    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 09-17-2015 at 05:36 AM.

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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Ireland's entry. The Heir Island Sloop.

    Notably they use a self tacking jib. They sail and race them in Long Island Bay and Roaring Water Bay, South West County Cork.






    http://www.ilenyachts.com/heirboats.htm
    This design was based on the 25 foot Towelsail Yawl. The original sail & oar boat of the southwest coast. Now they are mainly sail & motor boats, a little large for this thread, but interesting to see the design influence none the less!


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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    An excellent thread, thanks everyone for the images, especially you Ed.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    That Towelsail Yawl is very nice.

    The Caledonia Yawl.





    Despite having a boat in the garage, covered every inch in varnish, I'm always struck by this painted 4 straker. There are lessons here. Note painted spars and the uniformity it creates. Just the accentuated sheerline and curves remain. An exercise in simplicity, even the simple strap metal thwart knees. Plans show inboard outboard arrangement, which also gets the engine weight closer to the boats LCB. Ken intelligently put his right on the LCB successfully.



    I've seen these rowed at reasonable speed to get around a harbour. Without the intention to drop the rig, this 'UK' spec arrangement shows the gunter yawl rig with full decks added. Because of the jib, the gunter yawl has usefully a lower center of effort despite more sail area and more luff length than the lug yawl. Fully stayed, you also have a jib and jigger option.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 09-17-2015 at 11:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post




    I've seen these rowed at reasonable speed to get around a harbour. Without the intention to drop the rig, this 'UK' spec arrangement shows the gunter yawl rig with full decks added. The gunter yawl has a lower center of effort despite more sail area and more luff length than the lug yawl. Fully stayed, you also have a jib and jigger option.
    Is this a decked Caledonia Yawl? I like the look of this sail plan if so, and I might go with something like this when I build mine.

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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    Sailrat, the gunter yawl sail plan is an option included in the planset on either the 4 or 7 straker. I think the gunter sloop (no mizzen) rig is only in the 7 straker plans possibly. Rascal has added decks at sheer level which isn't shown. There are fore and aft 'decks'/ tanks a strake or so down shown as an option. Jonny Burke built Rascal in Glasgow for his client.
    http://www.theboatwright.co.uk/?m=201307
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 09-17-2015 at 11:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    Lateen rig, inboard cold molded Felucca.


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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Sailrat, the gunter yawl sail plan is an option included in the planset on either the 4 or 7 straker. I think the gunter sloop (no mizzen) rig is only in the 7 straker plans possibly. Rascal has added decks at sheer level which isn't shown. There are fore and aft 'decks'/ tanks a strake or so down shown as an option. Jonny Burke built Rascal in Glasgow for his client.
    http://www.theboatwright.co.uk/?m=201307
    Thank you, I thought I had seen it somewhere before. I should have looked at the plans from the different companies that sell them before asking an "un-informed" question. Sorry. I haven't purchased my plans yet and was waiting to hear from Mr. Oughtred directly first. I doubt I go with a full decked version, at this point in my planning I think it's just going to be fore and aft decks/tanks. But thank you for the quick reply.

    On the actual sails... do most at this level of home building sew their own sails or do they go through a company like Sailrite to get the sails already made or the materials and patterns? I would think a boat this popular would have a few outlets to get already made sails.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    Quote Originally Posted by SailRat View Post
    Thank you, I thought I had seen it somewhere before. I should have looked at the plans from the different companies that sell them before asking an "un-informed" question. Sorry. I haven't purchased my plans yet and was waiting to hear from Mr. Oughtred directly first. I doubt I go with a full decked version, at this point in my planning I think it's just going to be fore and aft decks/tanks. But thank you for the quick reply.

    On the actual sails... do most at this level of home building sew their own sails or do they go through a company like Sailrite to get the sails already made or the materials and patterns? I would think a boat this popular would have a few outlets to get already made sails.
    For custom boats it's rare for anybody to 'stock' sails except for very popular raced local one designs, where owners may all come in at the same time or arrange a discount for volume. In the Uk the XOD fleet work like that. Some people do it all themselves from several books on sail making. It's quite a subject and needs space and some equipment, but is a skill that by your 4-5th sail you might be getting reasonable at. Some stitch the pre cut Sail rite panels together and this is good and can make savings. Optimal is using a professional sail maker, either someone who specializes in your type if it is a niche product, like Todd Bradshaw or someone reccomended locally. A pro sailmaker can obviously include any extras you want. On the local front, this gives you the advantage of letting the sailmaker see your spars and assess spar bend, inorder for the sail to set well or match the spars that you build. He might also be aware of local conditions that dictate sail cut subtleties.

    These are the engine of the boat. An old worn set of sails loses about 25% power over a new set of sails. When test was done in a UK magazine some years ago on a Twister, new sails gave a 1-2 knot speed increase at typical sailing speeds. It was quite a difference. It will affect upwind pointing and speed obviously.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    [QUOTE=keyhavenpotterer;4653723]Hi John,

    I like Basher alot.

    Also if you buy Paul's new book of complied plans you get Basher included, and you get a half price plan voucher included until the end of the year for any other of his designs online! A very generous offer.


    Yes - I have Paul's book ( which is great )and have yet to use the voucher. I have asked him about making changes to Basher and he is happy to do that but fairly busy and at this stage I'm not sure yet what I want. Also I would struggle to find the time for a 500-700hr build at present. Most likely I will build a bigger version of my SOF rowboat before this.

    John

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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.



    That really is a VERY long tiller caused by the same problem I have on JIM, a large enclosed buoyancy chamber aft. I think I'll chose another solution!
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Sail and Motor Pr0n.

    Peter, he's got that length right, independent of the aft deck. Sailing solo, you want to have your bodyweight positioned over the position marked on the lines plan as the longitudinal center of buoyancy or spread either side of it like those two are. That determines your starting tiller length then look at other ergonomic issues in the boat.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 09-18-2015 at 06:29 AM.

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