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Thread: Racer to Cruiser

  1. #1
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    Default Racer to Cruiser

    There's interest in a cruising version of the Barefoot 5.8 design, a racer intended for the R2ak, into a cruiser or perhaps a racer/cruiser. Her completion of the race, during which everything worked and nothing broke, taught us a few things. For this past race(with lots of high wind), the rig (a cut-down used 37' carbon mast with double spreaders) was often too big, too heavy, with too much windage. The boat was overloaded at the start by at least 200 pounds of gear/fresh water/stores/tools. Another bothersome point was a leaky soft dodger to sleep in.

    So the new version is to have 1" of rocker/depth added to the bottom. This increases displacement by around 180 pounds, (assuming the new waterline at 7" hull draft) to deal with the overloading issue. Also she had a tendency to float tail heavy with full crew aboard, so I've filled out her stern quarters slightly, moving LCB aft. Ideally I want to see the transom up higher and leaving a cleaner wake. Another change is to move the flush cockpit sole up another inch inside the boat, so it's now 4" above the 1380 lb waterline. This will just improve life for the crew, keeping them drier. Also both changes will increase storage volume under the sole. I know...leading to more overloading....! An optional hard cuddy cabin will be added, and I'm thinking of at least two new rigs. One a simpler 3/4 yawl with single spreaders, the other a lug cat-yawl (unstayed).

    Some pictures to come.....
    ___________________________________
    Tad
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Will you keep the twin boards?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Looking forward to seeing it.

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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    What was the mast height on the Barefoot?

    When I had the 21' Alpha dory (a racing sail and oar design from another century) I put a 20' mast on it. when we sold the boat I built a 17' mast to spec of the plans and the boat was noticeably faster in rough water and heavy winds and not alot slower in light air!... live and learn, or follow the directions.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Having raced a dinghy for a number of years with a carbon tubed lug rig, I would definitely look at using carbon tubes for the lug yawl. It just works so well on so many levels.

    Brian

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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    The bilge-boards worked well and the boat balance is good, she tacks quick and sure. They found that lifting the weather board and rudder eased helm pressure with a noticeable speed gain. Having the boards as far outboard as they'll go really opens up the interior......and now I want to mess that up with a cabin......an alternate thought is to add the hardtop cuddy but with no bulkhead, leave the sole as the original is, clear and flat.

    The boards and their cases seemed pretty easy to build and handle, I like them. Another thing learned is that in a month of sailing the trailing edge of the carbon sheathed boards sawed a big cut in the aft edge of the case! Needs an UHMWP rub strip.

    For the R2ak the mast was 30' overall, steped on the sole. The main is 210 sq ft and the jib 77, mainsail has four reefs and all were used, the crew wished for a smaller jib at times.

    Here's the racing rig.....4th reef was added after this was taken......



    And the open interior.....

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    cogge ketch Blackfish
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Is that a double floor just for dry stowage or is there some water ballast in there? I reckon a hard top or folding canvas cuddy with sitting headroom would (butt on sole) be worth sorting. Curious if the canted in boards lose any efficency compared to vertical or outset(typical dutch style). Looks very simple and so effective, i like it.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Terrific update and story from Barefoot Wooden Boats in the R2AK, with great pictures

    https://www.facebook.com/SmallCraftA...67334306655680


    Brian

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    That first reef is cunning(ham), You just raise the whole boom up a track ,do you ? then pull the rest down.
    Last edited by John B; 08-06-2015 at 07:49 PM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    No ballast as such, but reality is that everything (and there was a lot) under the sole was effective ballast. Putting anything dense under there really settled the boat down. I had hopes that the fresh (drinking) water would be under there, but it ended up in two 25l jugs in the cockpit. Additional storage was in dry bags tied in under the side decks where it could be buoyancy in a knockdown (which did not happen), though they did occasionally take water over the rail.

    Getting comfortable with the stability of any particular boat is a very personal thing, everyone has different ideas. For the cruising version of the B5.8 one could experiment with lead bars under the sole. Or water bags for that matter.

    The boards were tilted in (closer the centerline at the bottom) as last years "Open" style racers. In theory this adds a vertical lift component as the boat heels, it should trim the bow up.....Does it? Maybe, in reality the boat is mostly sailed pretty flat and so the board is close to vertical. Years ago Bruce King did bilge-boards which were seriously canted outboard, but those were very tender IOR boats that sailed at high heel angles.

    Right John, the first reef is up with the boom, about 18" I think. That was to clear the cockpit for rowing or camping.
    ___________________________________
    Tad
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Terrific update and story from Barefoot Wooden Boats in the R2AK, with great pictures

    https://www.facebook.com/SmallCraftA...67334306655680


    Brian
    great story, having the espri de corps to continue when the race is won is great.

    curious about this passage

    After what we felt was a pretty good start, we received one of our biggest ass kicking's right off Valdez island. As I'm sure all you tracker junkies noticed, we then holed up in our home port for 2 painful days. As the wind stayed around 30knts right off Gabriola, everywhere else it was easing and the front half of the fleet was making steady progress North.

    what is involved in an "ass kicking"? too much wind, too large waves, too steep, too much spray, rough ride, gear failure, etc?

    this hull shape strikes me as high volume, high power, similar in shape and volume to a thistle or flying scott? were the conditions so rough that they would have favoured a sharper more "sea kindly" but slower hull form?
    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 08-07-2015 at 01:46 PM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Daniel,

    IMO "ass kicking" will be different for every sailor. I think it might be the point were you are sure the boat's going to break/capsize and you're going into some cold water with little hope of quick recovery. I do know that in this case it involved 25-30 knots of NW blowing against 4-5 knots of tide running out Porlier Pass over some rocky ledges creating steep close-spaced standing waves. These are usually so steep the boat (any small boat) has to go straight through them. Would some other boat be better? Could be. Higher sides, fully decked hull, with lots of lead hanging off the bottom would perhaps instill more confidence, it would also be a very different boat.

    A 19' boat is going to be at a disadvantage racing against 25', 30', or 40' boats because the seas do not change size. So the smaller boat must find their advantage somewhere else.

    Again I feel that in dealing with the weather in R2ak, there are endless examples where the boat almost did not matter, the sailor's attitude did.
    Last edited by TR; 08-08-2015 at 05:35 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Daniel,

    IMO "ass kicking" will be different for every sailor. I think it might be the point were you are sure the boat's going to break/capsize and you're going into some cold water with little hope of quick recovery. I do know that in this case it involved 25-30 knots of NW blowing against 4-5 knots of tide running out Porlier Pass over some rocky ledges creating steep close-spaced standing waves. These are usually so steep the boat (any small boat) has to go straight through them. Would some other boat be better? Could be. Higher sides, fully decked hull, with lots of lead hanging off the bottom would perhaps instill more confidence, it would also be a very different boat.

    A 19' boat is going to be at a disadvantage racing against 25', 30', or 40' boats because the seas do not change size. So the smaller boat must find their advantage somewhere else.

    Again I feel that in dealing with the weather in R2ak, there are endless examples where the boat almost did not matter, the sailor's attitude did.
    yeah that sounds pretty brutal, I'm imagining 4,5, even 6' breaking chop, dangerous stuff. Are the crew Sailors or boat builders who know how to sail? (I count my self as the latter)
    The nice thing about cruising vs raceing is, to a extent, you can choose your weather, when racing either the race is cancled or you are out there like it or not.

    so you mention boat size 25-40'. Were boats of that size competeing against Barefoot 5.8 in the R2ak? what sort of class was the bare foot crew racing in, or is it everyone together, anything goes? I noticed it was a 24-25' tri that won, even given ideal conditions thats not really a fair fight.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    so you mention boat size 25-40'. Were boats of that size competeing against Barefoot 5.8 in the R2ak? what sort of class was the bare foot crew racing in, or is it everyone together, anything goes? I noticed it was a 24-25' tri that won, even given ideal conditions thats not really a fair fight.
    It was a boat for boat race, no classes or handicaps, so a 16' dory with 2 crew was competing against a 39' racing cat with 6 crew. Obviously the two boats would not be sailing the same race for long. But they were competing against each other (which captured the imagination of many) and the dory "won" in that they finished the race while the big catamaran broke down and retired. And that's the attraction, it's a fair race in that you can bring whatever you have and compete, you don't need a yacht club or a blue blazer or lifelines or a liferaft or the latest wonder fibre sails or a PHRF/ORC rating. Read more about the boats

    http://smallcraftadvisor.com/our-blog/?p=4463













    Last edited by TR; 08-11-2015 at 01:03 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Well I'm having troubles posting this morning....please forgive....

    I know people want to re-hash the R2ak race and that's fine

    But I really intended to discuss converting a racing design to a decent fast cruiser....Is it possible? The biggest issue I see is the cabin. Sitting up headroom (36" over the seat) is not possible while retaining a good looking (sleek) boat, the cabin is too high. So, A) is a crawl-in cubby hole acceptable? Or B) Does one raise freeboard to make the cabin proportionally lower, creating a somewhat different boat?

    Two items that affect this decision. One is the sole, which becomes seat level in the cabin. Right now the cockpit sole runs full length of the boat at one level. Under this is an egg-crate structure of plywood I-beams capped with unidirectional carbon on yellow cedar cleats. Everything is fillet and taped with epoxy. It's a very stiff and strong box, one I'm loath to tamper with. Thus the seat height in the cabin-to-be is set as the top of this structure. Changing this will add weight and complexity, and (IMO) make the boat weaker, but will increase useability perhaps by making the cabin more comfortable.

    The other item is that I think tall cabins on low freeboard boats always looks ungainly. I remarked that to myself just this morning when passing a Pacific Seacraft 37, she was overloaded with the usual cruising crap so down in the water, hull looked good but boy did that cabin look tall. So I like higher freeboard with a lower cabin, it always looks better. But the best I can do on the B5.8 with existing freeboard is 2'8" over the seat on centerline. This is pretty tight.......
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Swallow Yachts BayRaider Expedition has a cuddly cabin and is based on their 20' BayRaider. Trying I remember if they added an extra top strake.

    http://swallowyachts.com/range/bay-raider-expedition/

    They both use water ballast below the raised cockpit floor. Might be worth a look to examine proportions. When I asked a very experienced female fellow crew member what was the most important feature on any boat she would sail, so was emphatic in her reply - somewhere private to pee. So a micro cabin for privacy will help the sale of plans a great deal.

    I have seen the boat at Keyhaven and it is a very good looking boat.

    Brian

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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Tad - I'm no designer, but am pleased with the way a folding soft cuddy worked out on my camp aboard rowboat. On a smaller boat, a soft cuddy has the option of all the cockpit space open while underway. Add a tent to get a full cabin for the night. If you size it for comfort over looks, at least it is not up all the time to ruin the boat's appearance.

    My simple one came out like this:





  18. #18
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    "But I really intended to discuss converting a racing design to a decent fast cruiser....Is it possible? The biggest issue I see is the cabin. Sitting up headroom (36" over the seat) is not possible while retaining a good looking (sleek) boat, the cabin is too high. So, A) is a crawl-in cubby hole acceptable? Or B) Does one raise freeboard to make the cabin proportionally lower, creating a somewhat different boat?"

    It depends largely on your target market, age category and weather conditions. Have a look at the Seascape 18 : http://www.seascape18.com/
    They seem to have a good recipe for creating a racing boat that can double up as a family cruiser, if the family has a backpacking mindset.
    I really like the look of your boat, I think a low cabin would be fine with room to sleep two below adequate, as the Seascape has. If you can sit semi-reclined you could lower the headroom requirement some, so I would go with option A, or have a lifting cabintop to increase headroom when not sailing.
    I like the twin daggerboards, given their position would it be possible to make them swinging centreboards and have some lead in the ends ? I think that would stiffen the boat up for strong winds. It needn't be a lot, 10-15kg in each board perhaps. I would prefer the rig you have now on it, but scaled down a bit, more focused on medium to stronger winds, but that's a factor of where I sail. Not sure a lug yawl says "fast cruiser" as much as the marconi rig with assymetric spi.
    I also like what John Welsford has done with AWOL - clever camp-cruiser with no cuddy/cabin, and 15knots boatspeed is definitely "fast cruiser" especially given the small unusual gaff sailplan (again, more suited to the location the boat was designed for).
    I know that you know how to design boats, so please take the following as a layman's observation : You mentioned increasing rocker to allow for more load-carrying ability. If this does not adversely affect the boat's ability to plane early, or to plane fast, then it's all good. But if you take this design down the road of being a comfortable cruiser rather than a fast cruiser, I think you'll have lost an opportunity to create a brilliant boat. There are many comfortable cruisers to choose from, but when I first saw your design I thought, wow, that looks fast, exciting to sail and interesting. I also think you could lose one rudder, as the transom doesn't look that wide, but the boat's balance might be upset if you have a central rudder and twin boards. The fewer appendages the crew has to lift and lower when tacking, the easier it will be to sail.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    32in is not a lot. I reckon you could get away with lifting the sheer plank a little more up forward if you want more headroom. Agree a higher topsides can look better than a large cabin, but some designs have what appears to be low cabin sides, and large amounts of camber in deck and coachroof combined with a relatively low hull profile and get away with it.
    I find it hard to believe some of the new ugly boats for sale that have given most of everything over to accomodation, meaning huge freeboard and cabin structures; but this is driven by the market. Maybe people who do want "fast" are those prepared to compromise something to get it, ie not a floating 4 berth boat with heads and shower compartment in 20ft.
    I would think with a combination cockpit tent, you could keep the headroom in the cuddy low enough just for sleeping in, thats all i would want in a boat like this.
    How about just cutting enough room through the sole big enough to take two peoples feet. Would be handy to stuff your kit in when in the berth.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies, I'll get time to answer properly over the weekend. And the cabin model will appear. At the moment I'm getting an aluminum Sitka Spruce sorted out.
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    do you consider the hney comb enclosed floor essential to the boats structure? most small boats do not have a double floor, there's plent of strength in the skin of the hull to handle the stresses of the rig, most small dinghys have this "sporty" feature for flotation/ capsize dewatering purposes, 9the ability to sail away from a capsize. for a cruiser with a cabin make the cabin watertight, don't want your stuff getting wet and just keep the double floor in the cockpit for dewatering. also a hatch that can be propped up or opened and mosquito netted, placed directly over where you would sit up in the berth can do wonders for making a too low ceiling cabin useable.


    I too agree that a lot of performance boat guys would probably respond well to the fat head sloop rig and wouldn't look twice if the same hull had a lug yawl rig on it... also you will definitely get questions about foiling if you r marketing to a performance crowd... not that it's practical or even possible but think it through!

    right now Im working on a set of lines for a performance planeing 21' dory, that also needs to double as a party barge/swim platform and day boat for 6-8 people... interesting challenge

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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Daniel, now you've raised the ugly subject of when a sailboat becomes a flying boat : With those outboard daggerboards that angle inwards to the centreline, all Tad needs to do is make them curved..just sayin'..

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    So here is my first try at what a cabin trunk might look like on the 5.8. This is just 36" over the raised (now 4" above waterline) cockpit sole/cabin floor; and that's only on centerline at the aft end. It's high enough to crawl into. The cockpit is now 9'4", transom to bulkhead, and the cuddy area offers 7' sleeping length and enough width for two friends. Sloop mast will be stepped on the cabin top with a compression post inside. Now the question is what to do with the side decks in the cockpit, leave them at 8" constant width (as Dick Smiley), make them wider forward to keep more water out of the boat, leave them open underneath, or enclose adding dry storage and potential watertight volume?

    ___________________________________
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    cogge ketch Blackfish
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    http://www.tadroberts.ca
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Brian,

    On the question of water ballast under the sole. So far, Quill and I agree it's unnecessary. They sailed the boat to Port Townsend, then to Alaska, then back to Prince Rupert, and never came close to capsizing, though they did ship water over the rail occasionally (and the open transom worked). And that was done with an oversize rig. Reality is there is always some stuff under the sole. Beginners should store some (well secured) lead under there. I think positive flotation in the mast (so she can't go beyond 90 degrees) is more desirable. Water ballast might come into it's own if you always trailer the boat, sail alone, in San Francisco or some other high-wind area.
    ___________________________________
    Tad
    cogge ketch Blackfish
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    http://www.tadroberts.ca
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  25. #25
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    rgtom....

    If she were mine I would (and have been for many years) be perfectly happy with a canvas hood. That's I've done in Ratty on a number of cruises and Raids. Personally, cabins just clutter a small boat, making it more dangerous (at least in some ways) to use. I really like the option to sleep in the open (which could be done in the cockpit of the 5.8) But a hard top has been requested, so away we go.
    ___________________________________
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  26. #26
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Steve,

    You raise many interesting points. I was looking(admiringly) at the Seacape 18 as the "Ready to sail" competition for the 5.8 cruiser. Major difference being the ballasted pivoting centerboard, she's also a lot wider and perhaps higher sided. Might be unrewarding to row.

    Pivoting boards are certainly possible. So far I have no reason not to like the vertical boards, they are simple, the case is really simple and strong, they are effective, and they're easy to replace/modify. Longer cases would pass through one or more frames, that gets complex. If it makes the boat more complex/expensive, and weaker, then why do it? People always raise the collision/entanglement issue, but it seems mostly a red herring to me. There were no complaints from the Dick Smiley crew, and I've found unintended collisions with the centerboard in Ratty to be extremely rare.

    The twin rudders are not strictly necessary, as the boat is sailed quite flat most of the time. What they did find is that raising the weather bilge-board and rudder eased helm pressure, plus added speed. I do have dreams of seeing this boat break loose and plane, and minimum rudder blade should aid that.

    An optional central pivoting board, with some ballast, is probably worth drawing as a feature some will want.
    ___________________________________
    Tad
    cogge ketch Blackfish
    cat ketch Ratty
    http://www.tadroberts.ca
    http://blog.tadroberts.ca/
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    I have been thinking of just sawing out a couple of footwells in the sole aft of the mast. The bilge is about 10" deep there, so if you're sitting on a cushion, it's workable with your knees up. There is a big web down the centerline to support the maststep, in a lug version that could be cut down some. Dick Smiley is all 1/4" (6mm) ply, the concept was "A surfboard with bulwarks". The egg-crate makes the hull very stiff and damage (watertight bulkheads) resistant. In reality it's also quite simple.

    ___________________________________
    Tad
    cogge ketch Blackfish
    cat ketch Ratty
    http://www.tadroberts.ca
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  28. #28
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    Default Re: Racer to Cruiser

    Tad,
    The more information I see about this boat, the more I like it the way it is. You seem to be moving the design brief around a bit, perhaps due to what potential customers want to see. I think you need to offer plans for it as is, and then look at the possible variations. Your image in post 27 looks a bit like a Merlin Rocket, so it can't possibly be slow.
    The boat as is looks to be a serious high-performance dinghy capable of daysailing 3-4, or cruising 2-3, with a good speed potential. Best to market to this category than to slow the design down with cabins and lugsail yawl options. These have their place on boats like my Navigator, but your hull has more potential than that.
    My comment on weighted centreboards rather than daggerboards is based on my assumption this boat can get planing at speed, again local conditions will dictate whether you'd be happy to charge along at 15knots with daggerboards if your sailing grounds are shallow. Then again a centreboard under sailing load is not likely to swing back anyway if you hit something, especially if it's weighted as well.
    I think if the R2AK had been in 15knots downwind, your chaps would have done a lot better.

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