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Thread: Some real Aussie Politics

  1. #2171
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Asap View Post
    Of course it's all the same stuff...talk about state the obvious.

    The storage issue, along with the adequacy of supply, are the core problems, and to shoo these away with a wave of a blithe phrase is just silly.

    It's not about winning debates with red herrings that matters; it's far more important for good debate that posts have integrity and are truthful.
    Actually, it's about having politicians who accept climate change science and would like to enter the new era of a low carbon economy. The technology is all available now.

    Scientifically literate politicians are not.
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  2. #2172
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_Australia

    It seems likely some on this list could be utilised or enlarged.
    Yes, and all should receive encouragement. But none are remotely capable either currently or in the foreseeable future of providing baseload power for industry, and not capable of taking even a trivial part of the existing power market.

    They will all require considerable investment still to get to the stage where the generation is even marginally significant in the overall scheme, and investors are always shy about unproven technologies, or at least technologies which have yet to show they will provide an adequate return on the investment.

    You mightn't like these truths but it is how the market economy works. This is what I mean about the difference being being real and simply wishing.

  3. #2173
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    The technology is all available now.
    No it is not. And repeating that untruth cannot in itself make it happen. Obviously this debate has reached its immovable stage. Thanks for the fun! Cheers

  4. #2174
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    I have a friend ( who used to post here) who works high up in that industry and he assures me it is. Investment and motivation are the main requirements
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I have a friend ( who used to post here) who works high up in that industry and he assures me it is. Investment and motivation are the main requirements
    And the need to break down the deliberate blockade by Govt . in order to protect well established , entrenched vested interests .

    And yes , the technology is available now , but actively suppressed.

  6. #2176
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    On another channel, have you fellas read the book 'He Who Must Be Obeid' by Besser & McClymont?

    I offer it up as some some grist for the mill for those of you who have so little faith in the institution of parliamentary democracy. But beware, it has a happy ending because the baddies gets locked up :-0

  7. #2177
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    No I haven't read it, the innards of political parties tend to nauseate me.
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Asap View Post
    Yes, and all should receive encouragement. But none are remotely capable either currently or in the foreseeable future of providing baseload power for industry, and not capable of taking even a trivial part of the existing power market.

    They will all require considerable investment still to get to the stage where the generation is even marginally significant in the overall scheme, and investors are always shy about unproven technologies, or at least technologies which have yet to show they will provide an adequate return on the investment.

    You mightn't like these truths but it is how the market economy works. This is what I mean about the difference being being real and simply wishing.
    Ouch, my bull**** meter just went off the scale.

  9. #2179
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    No I haven't read it, the innards of political parties tend to nauseate me.
    I can believe that. A green coat of paint is enough to get your vote, eh?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  10. #2180
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Ouch, my bull**** meter just went off the scale.
    That's a rather emotional response. The idea of debate is to tackle contentious issues with information and reason. If that's the best you can do, I don't know why you bother.

  11. #2181
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    No I haven't read it, the innards of political parties tend to nauseate me.
    I'm intrigued. You have a demonstrated interest in all things political, but no interest in investigating or understanding the political machinery. Seems to me it'd be next to impossible to understand what is really going on in politics, why things happen as they do, without having sufficient curiosity to get in behind the scenes to see it in motion.

  12. #2182
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    [QUOTE=Asap;5188863]That's a rather emotional response. The idea of debate is to tackle contentious issues with information and reason. If that's the best you can do, I don't know why you bother.[/QUOTE

    Im not really interested in politics. I just get a perverse joy out of taking the piss out of people who take themselves too seriously.

  13. #2183
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Asap View Post
    I'm intrigued. You have a demonstrated interest in all things political, but no interest in investigating or understanding the political machinery. Seems to me it'd be next to impossible to understand what is really going on in politics, why things happen as they do, without having sufficient curiosity to get in behind the scenes to see it in motion.
    I don't read about the machinations in the Liberal Party either.

    My interest is in policies and possibilities , not the slime, Labor or Liberal.
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  14. #2184
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Dutton seems to have forgotten his interest in "free speech", http://www.news.com.au/national/poli...b57c42d6a27fa0
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Asap View Post
    Sorry to you too, but the notion that lower demand creates greater productivity and assists with economic growth and the liberation from poverty of the world's billions is voodoo economics. But you're not alone; many fall for the same trap of the false dichotomy.
    Since I never claimed such a notion, nor do I believe in such a notion, I have absolutely no idea why you decided to give it such a label.

    I do agree with much of what you said in posts 2146 and 2152. Yes, the history of the economic development of (for example) the 1800s and 1900s is full of examples of states successfully controlling the excesses of the free market.

    Most of where we differ appears to be that I don't believe that the only way to enrich the poor is by encouraging a system in which the rich create pollution and consume by driving this year's even bigger 4WD to buy yet another wide-screen TV to put in their second home studio when they are not sitting aboard their triple-diesel three-decked 90 foot powerboat, which is the sort of thing that the growth mantra is about.

    Encouraging the rich to buy more products of highly-mechanised factories and a highly-mechanised transport and distribution system appears to be an extremely contorted and inefficient way to assist the poor.
    Last edited by Chris249; 03-19-2017 at 04:41 PM.

  16. #2186
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Im not really interested in politics. I just get a perverse joy out of taking the piss out of people who take themselves too seriously.[/QUOTE]

    Okay that I can understand. I admit the same guilt from time to time in different circumstances ;-)

  17. #2187
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Since I never claimed such a notion, nor do I believe in such a notion, I have absolutely no idea why you decided to give it such a label.

    I do agree with much of what you said in posts 2146 and 2152. Yes, the history of the economic development of (for example) the 1800s and 1900s is full of examples of states successfully controlling the excesses of the free market.

    Most of where we differ appears to be that I don't believe that the only way to enrich the poor is by encouraging a system in which the rich create pollution and consume by driving this year's even bigger 4WD to buy yet another wide-screen TV to put in their second home studio when they are not sitting aboard their triple-diesel three-decked 90 foot powerboat, which is the sort of thing that the growth mantra is about.

    Encouraging the rich to buy more products of highly-mechanised factories and a highly-mechanised transport and distribution system appears to be an extremely contorted and inefficient way to assist the poor.
    I also doubt there's much of a gap in our outlooks. Consumer demand/consumer goods...they're not synonymous of course but the three para-type exchanges this sort of forum allows make it difficult to qualify everything.

    It seems what irked most was my use of the term 'voodoo economics' and, once again, if it was in conversation rather than print I'm sure it wouldn't have offended. But since it did, or at least to the extent that it did (I'm guessing again), I genuinely apologise.

  18. #2188
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    PC assault targets Kokoda ‘mateship’


    Former major Charlie Lynn at a Kokoda memorial in Sydney. Picture: Bob Barker


    A monument to ‘mateship’.




    A new sign on the track which highlights ‘friendship’.

    Australian-funded projects have removed “mateship” from the lexicon used in Papua New Guinea to describe the heroism of Diggers fighting the Japanese on the Kokoda Track, in what a prominent critic describes as politically correct revisionism to “demilitarise” the battleground’s history in the lead up to its 75th anniversary.

    According to former Australian Army major, Vietnam War veteran and NSW Liberal state MP Charlie Lynn, who for the past 25 years has run treks on the Kokoda Track, $65 million of Australian taxpayers’ money has been directed through “a conga line of consultants” to green-leaning and leftist development projects promoting Australian liberal values such as gender equity on the track.

    At the same time, he claims, bridges and toilets on the track have fallen into disrepair and Australian-sponsored aid projects such as schools have no desks and clinics no medicines.

    The reinterpretation of the World War II campaign, during which Australian troops started to turn the tide against Japanese forces, has been carried out under the Department of the Environment and the Department of Foreign Affairs.

    “They are anti the military heritage of the trail,” Mr Lynn told The Australian, adding that he believed Australia’s Kokoda Track effort should have been under the charge of Veterans Affairs.

    “Now, they are starting to subtly rewrite the history of the track.”

    Mr Lynn pointed to a departure from the four words traditionally used to sum up the Australian war effort on the track, a campaign waged with the assistance of PNG communities: Courage, Endurance, Mateship, Sacrifice.


    Australian troops plough through mud in their out of forward areas on the Kokoda Track in PNG during WWII in 1942. Picture: Damien Parer/Australian Armed Forces

    Each of the four words is engraved on one of the four marble pillars in the war memorial established by the Howard government at Isurava, the site of a major battle in August 1942.

    “The power of that memorial is in the simplicity of the memorial and those four words,” Mr Lynn said.

    By contrast, he observed, a set of new interpretative panels erected at Owers Corner at the entrance to the track drops the word “mateship”, and instead refers to “friendship”, which Mr Lynn said reflected a preference for gender neutrality.

    One of the panels speaks of how “Australians, Papuans, and New Guineans served side-by-side in atrocious conditions”.

    “The Track has become a shrine to their courage, endurance and sacrifice,” the panel says. “It is an enduring reminder of the unity and friendship shared by the *people of Papua New Guinea and Australia.”

    Another section quotes a PNG man as having said “Friend ... I’ll walk with you” with regard to the help he provided to Australian soldiers. Mr Lynn claims the line was selected to mimic the fake social media campaign “I’ll ride with you” to combat supposed anti-Muslim sentiments after Sydney’s Lindt cafe siege.

    A spokeswoman for Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said the signs at Owers Conner were part of a project managed by the PNG Tourism Promotion Authority, funded by the Australian Environment Department.

    “The Foreign Minister had no role in the approval of the language used in the signs,” the spokeswoman said. “The word ‘friendship’ has been chosen as this is understood by Papua New Guineans. ‘Mateship’ is a uniquely Australian term and we will request both words are used as part of the new signage.”



    The spokeswoman said the “I’ll walk with you” line was simply a referral to the iconic image of the Kokoda campaign in which a blinded Australian soldier is being led by a Papua New Guinean, and had nothing to do with the “I’ll ride with you” campaign.

    Mr Lynn said Australian authorities had employed Australian consultants at a cost of millions of dollars to undertake leftist social engineering projects such as a gender equity study of PNG women on the track, where more than 600 Australian fighting men were killed and 1680 wounded during the campaign.

    Entitled A Gender Snapshot of the Kokoda Initiative, the 2014 study laments that “indigenous women and children, more than half the population are neither visible nor heard in most existing literature on Kokoda war history”.

    “Most accounts of the war on Kokoda are Australian and male, thus bringing a specific lens … Women are hardly mentioned.”

    Mr Lynn said rather than get PNG villagers to do the work on the track, Australians were being flown in. Ms Bishop’s spokeswoman said this project “twinned” PNG rangers with the Australians.

    Mr Lynn claimed bureaucrats and consultants missed the point of what attracted Australians to Kokoda. “They don’t go up there to have a bloody environmental levitation, they are going there to walk in the footstep of the *Diggers,” he said.

    The result had been a decline of more than 50 per cent in the number of trekkers over the nine years since the Department of Environment took charge of the Kokoda project.

    Ms Bishop’s spokeswoman did not directly respond to Mr Lynn’s claims of a deterioration of facilities on the track, but said: “The Australian government is working with the Kokoda Track Authority to improve safety, including by upgrading roads, installing a weather station, improving the Kokoda airstrip and updating the VHF radio network along the track to improve communications.”
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  19. #2189
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Asap View Post
    I also doubt there's much of a gap in our outlooks. Consumer demand/consumer goods...they're not synonymous of course but the three para-type exchanges this sort of forum allows make it difficult to qualify everything.

    It seems what irked most was my use of the term 'voodoo economics' and, once again, if it was in conversation rather than print I'm sure it wouldn't have offended. But since it did, or at least to the extent that it did (I'm guessing again), I genuinely apologise.
    Apologies, especially genuine ones, are poor form around here. Please retract.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  20. #2190
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Apologies, especially genuine ones, are poor form around here. Please retract.
    Wet behind the ears with this sort of thing :-0

  21. #2191
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Don't take lessons in politeness from Bigfella.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I don't read about the machinations in the Liberal Party either.

    My interest is in policies and possibilities , not the slime, Labor or Liberal.
    I'm prefer reading about Liberal slime but of course, referencing above, it's like electricity; it's all the same stuff no matter what the source.

  23. #2193
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Apologies, especially genuine ones, are poor form around here. Please retract.
    For what, using the term voodoo economics!?
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Asap View Post
    I'm prefer reading about Liberal slime but of course, referencing above, it's like electricity; it's all the same stuff no matter what the source.
    Or of course green slime, which after all is slime's usual hue...:-)

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    For what, using the term voodoo economics!?
    Cost me nothing :-)

  26. #2196
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    About bloody time:

    New powers to “terminate” any complaint made to the Human Rights Commission considered to be trivial will be applied in far reaching reforms that extend well beyond just race hate speech covered under section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act

    In a fundamental sweep out of the entire HRC complaint process the bar will be raised on breaches of section 18C with a “reasonable person” test being applied to claims of hate speech.


    A copy of a bill obtained by The Australian, which Malcolm Turnbull took to his party room this morning, will amend the RDA to remove the words of offend, insult and humiliate” in favour of an offence of harass or intimidate.

    It is understood that Tony Abbott rose in the party room to congratulate Mr Turnbull.

    The former Prime Minister had dropped attempts at similar reforms in 2014 due to political pressure.

    The reforms will require costs to be paid by complainants, include new provisions to empower the HRC to “terminate unmeritorious complaints at an early stage” and raise the bar on whether complaints would be accepted in the first place.

    It would also limit the judicial reviews of HRC decisions in unsuccessful complaints, require appropriate and early notification to those subject to a complaint and apply a test of “natural justice” in handling by the HRC of complaints.

    The bill also makes specific reference to The Australian’s late cartoonist, Bill Leak who died suddenly 11 days ago, claiming the complaint brought against him for a cartoon depicting the sad reality of domestic issues in the Indigenous community, had highlighted the need for reform in favour of free speech.

    “Contrary to the assertions of some, these are not limited to a narrow section of the Australian community, but extended to the mainstream media, the Australian Law Reform Commission, and the broader community,” the bill said.

    Significantly, the Human Rights Legislation Amendment Bill 2017, signed off last night by Cabinet and approved by the legal and constitutional affairs committee this morning, will broaden the coverage of the laws.

    “These reforms will apply to all complaints made to the commission, not just those under the RDA for breaches of section 18C,” the bill says.

    It would “insert a requirement that the test to be applied in determining whether 18C has been breaches is the objective standard, ie the standard of the ‘reasonable member of the Australian community’”.

    The reforms are the most wide-reaching since 18C was introduced by the Keating Government in 1995.

    An “issues” section of the bill notes “significant and heated public debate of reform to 18C.”

    “The demands for reform are persistent and will not be satisfied unless a good faith attempt at reform is made.”
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  27. #2197
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Xenophon is on the record as ruling out support for any change to 18C, so it's all academic. The one thing the bill will achieve though is a deepening of the ruction within the government party room.

  28. #2198
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    It's amazing how insistent the right is on being able to insult and demean using racial insults. Their version of "freedom".
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    I can't believe the amount of energy, angst and parliamentary time being spent on this.

  30. #2200
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    The right have taken the need for racial insults on as their cause celeb, that says more that they would prefer about them.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    and meanwhile they are done with marriage equality. Dont want to discuss it. Just want to get on and ruin the country. Run. Run the country. Bloody autocorrect. Cheeky little thing.

  32. #2202
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    The right have taken the need for racial insults on as their cause celeb, that says more that they would prefer about them.
    Yes to the above sentiments but, just between you and me, maybe the clause could have been better scribed.

    As I read it, for 18C to kick in, the victim needs to claim that they have been "insulted, offended or humiliated" by the perpetrator. I think it is unreasonable that the insulted etc person should be required to make a formal compliant against the insulter - because the complainant is then often subject to further insult in the media and subject to unreasonable public scrutiny. There are recent citable cases of this, especially where the vilifier is a prominent figure on the right.

    It seems to me perhaps a bit like how the old rape laws and divorce laws were tried; the victim comes on trial. Victims of racial insults etc would be fully aware of this and would therefore need to be of a strong constitution to go ahead with a complaint.

    I'm no lawyer - okay, a bush lawyer like most here - but I'd think the act might have been worded so as not to require a formal complaint by the victim. For example, assault charges can be laid by public prosecution on the evidence of witnesses and CCTV and the like; maybe vilification could be treated in a similar sort of fashion.

    I suppose the victim has the option of seeking satisfaction via assault provisions in the courts rather than through the commission - but I'm not sure how successful this would be/has been; perhaps a real lawyer could enlighten. But I'd also be keen to hear from the real lawyer what, if any, changes could, theoretically anyway, be made to better protect the victim and so make taking action under 18C so potentially less fraught.

  33. #2203
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Having watched from the jury a 'lawyer' demolish a 13 year old in court and get his client off a rape charge, fully knowing he had 2 previous similar acquittals I do not have a lot of time for moral free guns for hire.

  34. #2204
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Watch four corners tonight? Poor kid got raped by 3 brothers. Couldn't bear to go through the trial process. Offenders released. So, yeah, people who are vilified on grounds of race do have to stand up and be counted if they want to prosecute. That's how an adversary system works. (But that's not the point, it's a red herring. Nice try asap) And yes, the alleged offender is entitled to a fair trial, with competent legal representation. As a lawyer I wouldn't want that job, but it is vital to the rule of law that someone do that job and do it well. Jeff, you understand that I think.

  35. #2205
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Having watched from the jury a 'lawyer' demolish a 13 year old in court and get his client off a rape charge, fully knowing he had 2 previous similar acquittals I do not have a lot of time for moral free guns for hire.
    Having been foreman of a jury that returned a guilty verdict after an initial vote of 2 guilty 9 not guilty, 1 abstained.... I'd suggest that maybe you should reserve some of that anger for the jury.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

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