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Thread: Some real Aussie Politics

  1. #2381
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Weasel words, the LibNats are government and have been for years. Not everything needs a new bill though the Senate.Ministers and PMs have power.
    Can't you read, are you incredibly thick, or do you just automatically spew rubbish into any politics thread?

    The problem areas are in the Labor-run States. Service delivery is a state issue. Nothing to do with the Feds.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Nyunggai Warren Mundine wrote a very good article recently "To protect kids, we need to be fearless" .
    Well done that man !.
    Rob J.

  3. #2383
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Can't you read, are you incredibly thick, or do you just automatically spew rubbish into any politics thread?

    The problem areas are in the Labor-run States. Service delivery is a state issue. Nothing to do with the Feds.

    Of course not, totally powerless aren't they ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  4. #2384
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Of course not, totally powerless aren't they ?
    As usual, you add a smiley to an inane comment. What's that middle inital again?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  5. #2385
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Of course not, totally powerless aren't they ?
    Its a common result, when shouty men attack the person, rather than the argument - someone has said something that tickled a nerve. Now leave the Libs alone, they are trying. If they double the deficit......again, they might even succeed. Provided of course we measure success in how much wealthier the obnoxiously rich are and that wages remain stagnant. Sterling stuff.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  6. #2386
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    I have raised the issue many times, over many decades.

    However, you seem to be ignorant of the current makeup and nature of parliament processes and the nature of the Commonwealth. Leaving aside, for the moment, the Executive, let's look at the Senate. The ill-equipped left, in conjunction with some ignorant cross-benchers have a disproportionate level of influence. They block. They obfuscate. They don't want the LibNats to get any runs on the board and they oppose progress.

    You also seem to be ignorant of the fact that Labor are "in charge" in the places where the problems are worst... the Northern Territory, Western Australia, Queensland and South Australia. It is Labor who is tasked with the policing and management of service delivery.... yet you want to throw responsibility for problems over to the Feds. Don Dale, for example, is a Labor-run facility. The Feds have done some good work... The Intervention being a good start. BUT, what is needed to get things actually working, is for a whole bunch of self-interested watermelons to actually sit down and think about how to get results, rather than following their ineffective line of rhetoric that delivers nothing.

    Jacinta Price got it right when she named the key indigenous influencers and called them for their non-delivery of results. Perhaps you can advise us on what you think would actually deliver results on the ground? I'm all ears.... (oh, OK, eyes). Let's see what you've got.
    Your posts are so full of childish arrogance that they're quite funny, although also sad. It is utterly stupid of you to imagine that I'm not aware of the makeup of Parliament and the interplay of Federal and state powers given what's already been said on this forum. The fact remains that the Coalition does have great power in this area, as the Intervention demonstrated.

    I've worked with indigenous organisations in isolated areas so I have some ideas, and I agree with some Coalition members when they say that we can't maintain some of the more isolated settlements. I'm not going to go into more detailed policy proposals for two reasons. One is that they are completely irrelevant to the points I'm addressing. The second reason is that I often like to carry out very detailed studies before I propose policies, as I did when creating a policy for the Coalition.

    There's a lovely irony in the fact that you think I've got so little grasp of government and policy and the Coalition government is so great, when in fact the Coalition is adopting a policy I designed for their government. If I'm ignorant then they are even more ignorant for adopting my idea.


    PS - I know you howl, whine and splutter when anyone dares to make a personal remark about you. That merely reveals the hypocrisy in your sad soul, since you started behaving badly to me when I was very new here. Your posts make it appear as if you are a bully who can only try to bully on the internet because your physique isn't up to bullying people in the flesh. I admit, I made a mistake when I hit the "read ignored poster" tab since your post that tried to draw a parallel between posters here and those who condone child abuse is a new low even by your own standards.
    Last edited by Chris249; 03-08-2018 at 06:03 PM.

  7. #2387
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Your posts are so full of childish arrogance that they're quite funny, although also sad. It is utterly stupid of you to imagine that I'm not aware of the makeup of Parliament and the interplay of Federal and state powers given what's already been said on this forum. The fact remains that the Coalition does have great power in this area, as the Intervention demonstrated.

    I've worked with indigenous organisations in isolated areas so I have some ideas, and I agree with some Coalition members when they say that we can't maintain some of the more isolated settlements. I'm not going to go into more detailed policy proposals for two reasons. One is that they are completely irrelevant to the points I'm addressing. The second reason is that I often like to carry out very detailed studies before I propose policies, as I did when creating a policy for the Coalition.

    There's a lovely irony in the fact that you think I've got so little grasp of government and policy and the Coalition government is so great, when in fact the Coalition is adopting a policy I designed for their government. If I'm ignorant then they are even more ignorant for adopting my idea.


    PS - I know you howl, whine and splutter when anyone dares to make a personal remark about you. That merely reveals the hypocrisy in your sad soul, since you started behaving badly to me when I was very new here. Your posts make it appear as if you are a bully who can only try to bully on the internet because your physique isn't up to bullying people in the flesh. I admit, I made a mistake when I hit the "read ignored poster" tab since your post that tried to draw a parallel between posters here and those who condone child abuse is a new low even by your own standards.

    Wah, wah, wah..... bitch and moan about the person, never provide content. You show yourself for what you are.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  8. #2388
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Its a common result, when shouty men attack the person, rather than the argument - someone has said something that tickled a nerve. Now leave the Libs alone, they are trying. If they double the deficit......again, they might even succeed. Provided of course we measure success in how much wealthier the obnoxiously rich are and that wages remain stagnant. Sterling stuff.
    Very prescient of you. Chris posted after you, but yeah, you are spot on.... as he demonstrated
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  9. #2389
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics



    Soaked in blood, with nightclothes clinging to her skin in the thick, muggy heat, Jacinta Nampijinpa Price sprints to the nearest neighbour’s house and begs them to call the police. It is 7am, Darwin, 2008. Five months into a new relationship — the first since splitting with her high-school sweetheart and father of her three kids — and Price is bolting for her life. Drugs and feral outbreaks of jealousy have broken the veneer of the honeymoon period. In the heat of the attack a lamp is hurled at her with such force that it leaves a gash requiring six stitches. “I looked at my hand, it was covered in blood and the blood was dripping down my shoulder,’’ Price recalls. “And I thought, ‘I have to get out of here because if I don’t get out of here, he’s going to kill me.’ ”

    She manages to make a run for it, out the door, feet slapping the driveway of the flats where she lives, across the road and into sanctuary. “I felt like the stereotypical Aboriginal woman victim of violence. And I felt really degraded,” Price says now. “Sitting in this stranger’s house, bleeding all over their floor and asking them to call an ambulance for me, and the police. I was just so glad that my kids weren’t there to witness that.

    The proud Warlpiri-Celtic woman peers at the bushland across the street from her mother’s place on the edge of the Alice Springs township. “Immediately there’s a stigma attached to a victim of family violence. And I felt it, straight away. And I felt like, ‘How could I let this happen to myself? Why didn’t I see this coming?’” This would be the last time Jacinta Price would be a victim. She broke up with her boyfriend, roused her spirits and took a good hard look around her. In the mirror stood a clever young Territory woman with much to say — although it would take some years for her to articulate all that she’d seen and experienced since she was a tiny kid running through the potholed backstreets of Alice. But soon she began to speak some uncomfortable truths. She lifted the veil on the murderers and rapists and victims in her own extended family and the kinship ties and “cultural excuses” that protect the perpetrators. She has been hailed as a fearless anti-violence warrior and at the same time has become a lightning rod for criticism. But once the lid was off she realised there was no turning back. Despite the vitriol, the scorn, the social media hate campaigns. No running away.

    Weaving through clutter, books and furniture, apaper trail of life well-lived, Price scours the nooks of her parents’ home, searching for a lost Stimson’s python. The reptile’s gone missing, but as the 36-year-old Alice Springs town councillor and aspiring federal politician rightly points out, the snake sh!t in the middle of the lounge room is a good indication it hasn’t yet fled the roost. Price’s family members are close at hand — her father Dave hovers around the kitchen, colourfully criticising a letter in the local newspaper, the Centralian Advocate, which he dubs “highly defamatory” and critical of his family. Jacinta’s mother, Bess Price, a former minister in the notoriously dysfunctional Adam Giles-led Northern Territory government, potters around in a back room. The walls are lined with family memorabilia: Bess catching a barra in the Top End, and meeting Barack Obama in the White House; Dave as a “don’t say hippie” young man exploring outback Central Australia; Jacinta as a bright, smiling child; and a portrait of Linawu, the brother who died of leukaemia when she was just three years old.


    Jacinta Price and mother Bess in Alice Springs. Picture: Chloe Erlich


    On this sun-bitten Red Centre morning, one day before Jacinta Price announces her ambition to run in the next federal election, the bond of family reverberates through the household, with in-jokes, giggles and wry, gentle jibes bouncing off the walls. It’s a bond that has kept this unit sane through some of life’s tougher hurdles: Jacinta’s teen pregnancy (her first baby was due on the day of her Year 12 formal), the kidney disease that almost took her mother’s life, and a string of bloody deaths in the family, including the murder of Bess Price’s sister while the politician held parliamentary office. “We were always a very close family because of just the sorts of things that we’d been through … the amount of loss — family — in our lives. Knowing we had to be each other’s support network,” Price says.

    Family may never have been a more necessary oasis for Jacinta Price, as political spotfires smoulder across the landscape. Her outspoken views have built her simultaneously into a refreshing renegade and a divisive pariah on the national political stage. Her comments about Aboriginal domestic violence being ingrained in traditional culture, and her strident stance around keeping Australia Day on January 26, have brought social media trolls scuttling out of the woodwork, barfing out insults, death threats and racist bigotry. One meme recently emerged of Price Photoshopped next to three Ku Klux Klansman and the caption, “Jacinta Price and her followers”.




    Jacinta Price with Colin Lillie. Picture: courtesy Jacinta Price
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  10. #2390
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    Continued.......



    Price’s husband is Colin Lillie, a fiercely bearded Scotsman who earns his crust as a troubadour gigging around the country. While not formally hitched, Lillie says the couple were joined “Jacinta’s way — bashed over the head with a nulla-nulla. That’s it, we’re married. In Warlpiri cultural way, I’m accepted as her husband, and I’ve got to take everything on board that comes with that.” The pair became firm during Price’s former life as a musician, when Lillie helped produce her debut album, Dry River. They now have four children between them — Price’s three boys, now in their teens, and Lillie’s son.

    In a newspaper article, Price listed the diverse cultural mix in her own household: “I am half Warlpiri and a mixture of Irish, Scottish and Welsh. My sons are of Warlpiri, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Malay, Indian, French, African, Chinese, Scandinavian and German ancestry. My stepson is half Scottish and a quarter Mauritian. They are all 100 per cent Australian.” Her point? “Most of the self-identifying indigenous members of our community who claim to feel hurt by Australia Day being held on January 26 would also have white ancestors in their family trees and may not even have been born if the First Fleet hadn’t come.”

    “I wasn’t raised to deal with confrontation with words like Jacinta does,” Lillie offers in the thick brogue of the mining village near Edinburgh he hails from. “I learnt at a very young age the difference between an angry man and a violent man — an angry man is someone who just talks the talk. A violent man is someone who basically doesn’t talk. And that’s what I grew up with. And Jacinta has been able to teach me and help me grow to be a better man by showing me that words are powerful things.”



    Alice Springs Town Councillor Jacinta Price (centre) at the White Ribbon Day march against male violence last year. Picture: Jeff Tan

    Lillie doesn’t subscribe to all of Price’s prickly viewpoints — “we might be husband and wife but, you know, I don’t always agree with everything that Jacinta says or does”. He does, however, vehemently believe in his partner’s right to say what she believes. “She’s a politician punk. She really is, she’s a punk when it comes to Aboriginal politics because she’s stepping out from how the Aboriginal community believe an Aboriginal woman should be behaving. And she’s a punk — she’s taking it from the inside out. And I’m extremely proud of her.”

    Price’s views have attracted the attention of some high-profile allies, including the one-time prime ministerial candidate turned anti-PC baiter Mark Latham, who enlisted her to take part in a televised Australia Day campaign. “I heard her speak at a conference in Brisbane last year and was very impressed by her practical but compassionate approach to the indigenous issues,” says Latham.

    The cavalcade of abuse that dogged Price in the weeks following her involvement in the campaign was “horrendous”, says the one-time Labor leader. “The trolls hate her because she’s the sort of person that identity politics would normally applaud — an indigenous woman, an elected councillor from Central Australia. She’s got impeccable credentials for speaking on indigenous issues, but she’s not toeing the inner-city green line, and their only response is abuse and online hysteria.”

    Latham understates nothing when speaking of how far he believes Price could travel in politics. In April, if she is successfully nominated to run for the Country Liberal Party in the sprawling Territory seat of Lingiari — which insiders say looks a done deal — she then has the chance to ride into the House of Representatives on the ticket at next year’s election. “I think Jacinta is the most impressive indigenous person that I’ve come across in the political sphere,” Latham says.

    Conservatives across the nation latched onto the Price juggernaut following the intense Australia Day coverage. Asked if she trusts figures like Latham and others now hooked on her and her political ideologies, and whether they have her best interests at heart, she cautiously replies: “Trust is a strong word. I think there are people who are valuable to have in your network, put it that way. You need to surround yourself with people you trust. There are only a few people you can trust. I’ve learnt that most definitely. And never necessarily trust those who are throwing themselves at you and want to do things for you. Even if they say they don’t necessarily want something, there is always something that someone wants.”
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  11. #2391
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    ... and the penultimate installment. Queue any attacks on the messengers and associated people on the left, please..... after the final installment






    Price in Yamba’s Playtime. Picture: Christine Ansorge

    Price’s shift away from life as a musician and presenter of iconic outback children’s TV show Yamba’s Playtime into politics was abrupt, triggered partly by watching her mother’s time as a minister. As the Territory CLP Government shuddered from scandal to scandal, Bess found herself roped into the melee. She became embroiled in a travel entitlements furore in which her chief of staff Paul Mossman was later found guilty of corruptly receiving benefits. Her Aboriginality became part of the debate as she pushed to be permitted to speak her first tongue, Warlpiri, in parliament. Watching from the sidelines, Jacinta says she was getting “really pissed off and upset when I saw people saying nasty things. When you see the media portray her in a certain way, which was so untrue to who she was, it would get me really angry or upset.”

    By 2015, the younger Price was in the process of a political awakening. She realised she too was now in a position to start raising her voice. The seemingly endless chain of violence in her family led her to speak out. “I got to a point in my life where we had that many deaths in our family. We had that many women traumatised by family violence and children traumatised by family violence,” she says. “And this ‘growing up yapa [Aboriginal] way’ is always like, you don’t talk about the really tough things. You pretend like they don’t exist. You know there are members in your family who have beaten the crap out of your own aunty, who have raped people, and yet your family expects you to pretend that these people haven’t done those things. You’re supposed to turn a blind eye to that. And I think I got to a point where I went, ‘I’ve had enough of this’. And I became quite vocal.”

    In lifting the veil from the largely taboo subject of Aboriginal community violence, Price’s star began to rise. She was hand-picked to deliver a couple of high-profile addresses to audiences at the National Press Club and the right-wing think tank the Centre for Independent Studies. In the latter, in 2016, she told the audience: “Aboriginal culture is a culture that accepts violence and in many ways desensitises those living the culture to violence.” To the press club she admitted she had been placed under immense pressure to withhold parts of her story, saying she was putting her immediate family at risk of violent retaliation. “But why am I standing here if not to hold us all to account for the lack of responsibility, action and justice for these Aboriginal women and children and the thousands of victims of family violence and sexual abuse?” she said.

    Prominent Aboriginal leader Warren Mundine says Price’s uncompromising stance on indigenous violence has never been more necessary. “It’s a voice we need to have in the parliament. Because the current situation is not working,” he says from Sydney Airport, where he is waiting for a flight to Darwin where he will meet members of the NT Government dealing with a child protection crisis after the alleged rape of a two-year-old Aboriginal toddler in Tennant Creek. “On the Closing the Gap figures, we’re spending something like $130 billion [in eight years to 2016] and we’re not really confronting the real issues,” Mundine says. “About the social breakdown and family dysfunction in some of these communities. And the alcohol and drugs and so on. So I think she’s spot on. The status quo is not working. We need new blood in there, we need someone to be disruptive and to shake it up so we start actually confronting and dealing with the issues.”

    Labor senator and former NT child protection minister Malarndirri McCarthy warns Price to tread carefully, and reflect on what she’s saying in the national auditorium, so as not to “exacerbate a situation”. “There are moments where I wonder whether they are helpful comments. And I think that Jacinta … I would just say to anyone who’s thinking of standing for political life that you have a greater responsibility,” McCarthy says.

    In her desert hometown, some have begun striking out against Price’s firebrand commentary. A perception that she hasn’t properly consulted with women in town camps and communities has added kindling to the blaze. In late January, a statement attributed to “the Aboriginal women of Central Australia” was read in the Alice Springs council chambers by indigenous councillor Catherine Satour, appearing to take aim directly at Price. “To be an Aboriginal leader it requires you to be appointed and recognised as such by the Aboriginal community,” the statement read. “As the Honourable Linda Burney MP so rightfully put: ‘Leadership in an Aboriginal cultural context is not given or measured by how much media you get or if you earn big money. True Aboriginal leadership does not come from high-level appointments or board membership. It doesn’t come from and cannot be given by white constructs. Leadership is earned; it is given when you have proven you can deal with responsibility and you understand that responsibility’.”

    While Satour and others flatly deny the speech was pointed at Price, a heated stoush at the meeting’s conclusion suggests otherwise. Inflamed on social media beforehand, Price’s relatives showed up to defend her name. Price herself was a no-show, away in Sydney for unrelated business. White activists accompanied a group of Aboriginal women supportive of the statement. The place was packed. While the meeting dragged on, a din erupted on the council lawns. A screaming match between Bess Price and other desert women had broken out, with insults hurled in English and Red Centre languages. The stoush hit fever pitch as Satour left the chambers. It is alleged that an uncle of Price’s stormed up and verbally assaulted the councillor. “Following this statement [being] read is now a matter for a police investigation as I and the Arrernte woman were abused and I was threatened with violence,” Satour says. Territory Police have confirmed a report was filed. Council decided to upgrade its safety measures in the meeting’s wake.



    Alice Springs Town Councillors Catherine Satour and Jimmy Cocking. Picture: Alice Springs News Online
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  12. #2392
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    Ta da......


    The mood in the town council is tense. Alice Springs councillor Jimmy Cocking says “there’s a lot of angry people out there who feel they’ve been misrepresented” by Price on a national platform. “It’s a lot of responsibility being an elected representative of the community and you’ve got to make sure that you are not creating unnecessary divisions or vilifying sections of the community as well,” Cocking says. “That’s the responsibility that we have and we’ve got to take seriously … that we’re working to find ways that we can heal wounds rather than open them.”

    Another councillor, Eli Melky, says the “issues Councillor Price has championed on a national level” have had little relevance to local council debate. “She’s entitled to have her passions, and is entitled to speak on the beliefs that she has,” Melky says. “And those things that she’s championing like [anti] domestic violence against women — who would disagree with that? Nobody. In fact, we supported the motion she brought to council — I think it’s the only motion that I’m aware of that she brought to council in the two years that she’s been there — about having a policy to support a position of anti-violence against *children and women.”

    Since securing her seat at a by-election in 2015 alongside CLP compatriot and Alice Springs builder Jamie de Brenni, Price has attended 39 out of 49 council meetings — about 80 per cent. Now deputy mayor, de Brenni is also vice-president of the CLP, helping the party rebuild its Central Australian conservative base, of which Price will be a cornerstone. “Jacinta is always knowing what’s best for the community she works for. She’s always been there when people need her. Outside of council, that’s Jacinta Price. When she’s at the council, she’s a councillor,” de Brenni says. “I don’t think she crosses over at all. She speaks her mind, she has her followers, she has her detractors. But that’s nothing that’s brought into the chambers at all. She doesn’t do that and I respect her for that.”

    While acknowledging the limitations of what she can achieve on council, Price believes she has made ground for her Red Centre township. But now her ambitions are overshooting council boundaries. She may soon get the opportunity to try to knock off veteran Labor MP Warren Snowdon from the seat of Lingiari, which covers thousands of square kilometres of tough, remote Territory terrain — and some of the most difficult indigenous social problems in the nation. “One of the main issues that I want to drive is looking at the Land Rights Act — looking at how the land councils have been operating and having a review of it all,” Price says when asked of her policy plans.

    The Northern and Central Land Councils were set up to control distribution of mining royalties across different indigenous groups — a system now seen by some to be fuelling internal community greed and an increasing reliance on so-called “sit-down money”. “I’ve seen the destruction from within my own family because of the royalties system, and I believe it is also contributing to violence,” Price says. “I’ve witnessed people in my own family, my grandfather’s sister being punched at a royalties meeting. And I think it’s all-encompassing in that our Aboriginal men need to feel a sense of value. They need to become part of the economy … which would help alleviate, I believe, the issue of family violence, if men are employed.”

    When asked if she believes some of her more radical statements about male violence could spook some Aboriginal voters, she says, “You can’t hide from the truth. Yes, I have said those things and I’m not backing down from that. But we’ve got to find wholistic ways of dealing with the problem. I have stood at funerals of my own family members and I have spoken about these very tough issues, and have said to my family, as we stand there burying a young person in our family, that we should be teaching our children that this is not normal. We should not be accepting this as normal. And I don’t think anybody wants their family members to be dying so young.”

    In the wake of the alleged rape of the toddler at Tennant Creek she took to Facebook and in typical style went right in at the deep end. “I have said it over and over again that a child’s life is far more important than anything else whether that be the child’s culture or kin!” she began. “Those who complain about the high rates of removal of Aboriginal children fail to point out why this is happening. Those of us who push for children to be removed in order to save their lives are fighting an uphill battle. The parents are failing their children and then the system is failing the children and this has to stop! The blood of our children is on the hands of those who want to keep pushing the ‘second stolen generation’ myth … political correctness and stigma brought on by our country’s history renders us useless to act on what is the right thing to do!”

    Perched on their veranda overlooking a rocky outcrop, Bess and Dave Price recount their heartbreak and the “betrayal” inflicted by voters at the 2016 Territory election. After a term of chaos, ego wars and scandal, the CLP lost all but two seats in an electoral bloodbath. Bess was shafted from her outback electorate of Stuart, which contains many of her family members. Partly to blame, says Dave, was Jacinta’s growing outspokenness, which he believes was “twisted” and used by political enemies to help oust Bess. “Jacinta stood up even though she knew this could do her mother political damage. And it did,” he says. “She turned around and looked at us with tears in her eyes and said, ‘You’ve always taught me to tell the truth, no matter what, and that’s all I want to do’.”

    The younger Price was preparing to deliver the address at the Centre for Independent Studies in Sydney, where she called out murderers in her family, female genital mutilation and the existence of forced child marriage in the Outback. “I know of many stories of rape and murder, stories that belong to women in my family and many other Aboriginal families. Stories that never reach the ears of the wider public,” she told the audience. As difficult as it was to accept at the time, Dave Price beams when reflecting on his daughter’s actions. “We were saying, ‘Please don’t say it now. Let’s wait.’ Because we knew the political consequences,” he says. “Now, looking back, I’m enormously proud that she did, because she told the truth.”

    Jacinta is acutely aware of the bumpy path ahead and admits to the rare moment when she’s wondered, why the hell do I do this? “There are times where I want to run away and go, ‘Come on Colin, let’s just go and move to Scotland and live there’. But then, I know that I can’t do that. Something will happen — like [when] a bunch of little Aboriginal kids came up to me one time. I was walking after a pretty tough day and they came up with their bikes and just started chatting away. They’re talking about how this happened and that happened and they’re hungry — and you want to just do things for them. There’s such a brightness in their eyes at such a young age, and you want to make their future brighter. And you’ve got to keep going. I can’t stop while they’re still living the lives they’re living. They’re not thriving or having the sorts of opportunities that my kids have, that other kids have.”

    But Price knows the difficulties of the political landscape. She knows that the path to delivering a future with no more violence, no more victims in remote Aboriginal Australia remains as tough and treacherous as the red desert around her.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  13. #2393
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Its typical, the left can't face the real political issues
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    The persistence of domestic violence and child abuse in Aboriginal and other remote communities is abhorrent and should not be subject to the usual partisan nightmare.
    There is no dialectic process for fixing that problem - the failure to make headway belongs to all parties who have had opportunity for influence over decades.

    I must admit i find it hard to reconcile opposing the intervention when juxtaposed with the violence experienced by very vulnerable people.

    But the problem persists.
    It is a great shame on all of us that it does.

    He said / she said isn't going to solve it.
    It should be one area where 'ideas' matter and not 'whose ideas'.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    So - who do you believe? I suspect that the rusty greens and old-time unionists and any associated watermelons not included in either of those camps, will run with Bill's class warfare line.

    Anyone with half a brain or more, or who is reliant on their superannuation should be voting for the LibNats.

    From Greg Brown:



    Malcolm Turnbull has savaged Bill Shorten’s “cash grab” in axing cash refunds for franking credits, arguing the Opposition Leader was “robbing” pensioners and retirees and was wrong to claim the policy would mostly impact the wealthy.

    The Prime Minister said the Opposition Leader’s $59 billion crackdown on dividend imputation would barely touch the rich, with nearly all those impacted by the policy being retirees earning less than $87,000 a year.

    “Bill Shorten is robbing pensioners and self-funded retirees of tax refunds. He’s effectively taxing them twice,” Mr Turnbull said.

    “This is an attack targeted on people on lower and middle-incomes. It is taking money from people who have worked and saved all their lives and are battling.

    “So he can dress this up as much as he likes, but I tell you Australian pensioners, self-funded retirees, know who it’s targeted at. It’s targeted at them.

    Mr Shorten said this morning Labor’s policy would have a “marginal” impact on “a few pensioners”, declaring his policy was targeted at ending largesse to the “top end of town”.“Bill Shorten is coming for the savings, for the incomes, for the lifestyles, for the affordability of the cost of living of people on lower and lower middle-incomes in retirement.”

    “How can we have a system where someone gets a $2.5 million refund from the government to pay no income tax, it is ridiculous,” Mr Shorten said.

    “This scheme, while it will have a marginal affect on a few pensioners, is (mostly) going to the top end of town.


    “How can it be that tax payers — mums and dads, nurses, teachers and doctors — are going to work, paying taxes to the Australian Taxation Office and the Australian Taxation Office is cutting a tax refund cheque to multi-millionaires who pay no income tax?”

    Mr Shorten said he would fight the government’s “scare campaign” because his policy was about fairness.



    Opposition Leader Bill Shorten. Picture: AAP.

    “I’m going to choose the battler over the top end of town and Mr Turnbull is using a few pensioners as a sort of human shield to justify featherbedding the very rich who are getting a tax loophole which is simply unsustainable,” he said.

    Mr Turnbull said the policy would hit 200,000 pensioners and Labor was pursuing it because the party was not able to manage the budget. He said taxes would increase by $200bn over a decade under Labor, equating to $8,000 per Australian.

    “It’s a cash grab because he cannot manage the budget. He knows that his spending plans need a huge tax grab,” Mr Turnbull said.

    “Fifty per cent of the individuals that will be hurt by this tax grab are on incomes of less than $18,000. These are pensioners and retirees ... he’s coming after them and to dress this up as some sort of an attack on the wealthy is nonsense.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    “Fifty per cent of the individuals that will be hurt by this tax grab are on incomes of less than $18,000. These are pensioners and retirees ... he’s coming after them and to dress this up as some sort of an attack on the wealthy is nonsense.
    People on incomes less than $18k - rely on franking credits!

    Oh no they don't.

    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    People on incomes less than $18k - rely on franking credits!

    Oh no they don't.

    I'm getting the impression that you aren't following along on this.

    It reminds me of Emma Alberici's knowledge and understanding of the difference between income and profits.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Ha ha - Shorten and the even shorter Bowen might just have ensured the loss of Batman. What a hoot.

    This, from Simon Benson and Joe Kelly:

    Bill Shorten is considering a supplement payment package for up to 250,000 pensioners to make up for annual cash refunds they stand to lose, as the Opposition Leader comes under mounting pressure over Labor’s plan to scrap $59 billion in refundable tax credits on share dividends.

    As Labor faces pushback from seniors and self-managed super fund lobby groups, The Australian understands that a financial sweetener will be considered for the 10 per cent of pensioners on the lowest annual incomes who may lose their modest imputation credit refunds.

    This would likely come in the form of a payment supplement in addition to Labor’s promise to restore the energy supplement linked to the carbon tax, which the Turnbull government scrapped for new welfare and pension recipients.

    “We will make sure that pensioners are OK, full stop,” Mr Shorten said yesterday after hinting that Labor’s budget strategy would ensure pensioners were not left out of pocket.

    National Seniors Australia, the Self-Managed Super Fund Association and the Association of Independent Retirees yesterday urged their members to write to Labor MPs and warned of a national campaign against Mr Shorten’s tax grab.

    The Opposition Leader yesterday acknowledged his policy would affect about 250,000 pensioners, amid new warnings the changes would force more people onto the Age Pension and possibly undermine the expected revenue gain of $59bn over a decade.

    Mr Shorten’s claim that part pensions would rise to compensate low-income earners for the loss of their rebates was also attacked by National Seniors Australia. It declared the comment “incorrect” and argued it showed a fundamental misunderstanding of “how income is calculated for pensioners”.

    National Seniors Australia chief executive Ian Henschke said he wanted Labor to “reconsider the full effect of this policy” and provided research showing that some part-pensioners would be more than $900 worse off once their rebates were removed.

    Analysis provided exclusively to The Australian shows that a single person who qualifies for the part pension under the assets test may be substantially worse off under the Labor plan.

    In one case study, an individual with $451,000 in assets — including $1000 cash from a refundable dividend tax credit — would receive a $3 increase in their fortnightly pension payment (from $302.65 to $305.65) once the refund was scrapped. While this would lift the part-pension payment by $78 a year, it would still leave the individual $922 worse off overall.

    Centrelink makes an assumption about the income that investments will generate. In another case study, the analysis suggests that a single person who qualifies for a part pension under the income test is assumed to receive a return of 1.75 per cent on their first $50,200 of savings and 3.25 per cent on anything over that.

    Changes in the person’s actual income are irrelevant to this calculation, so the abolition of cash imputation refunds would make no difference to the pension, although it would directly affect the pensioner’s total income.

    National Seniors Australia’s senior officer Basil La Brooy said: “There doesn’t seem to be an understanding of how income is calculated for pensioners. And this is a policy that’s been in place for many years.”

    Malcolm Turnbull yesterday accused Mr Shorten of launching a targeted attack on lower and middle-income earners in a “Labor cash grab” he said would hit more than 3.5 million superannuation accounts and affect more than one million people, including more than 200,000 pensioners.

    “He’s seeking to take money from pensioners and self-funded retirees, money they’re entitled to,” Mr Turnbull said. “Think about that — 50 per cent of the individuals that will be hurt by this tax grab are on incomes of less than $18,000. These are pensioners and self-funded retirees.

    “This is not a tax loophole or anything like this. This is a case where companies have paid tax, they’ve paid tax. They pay a dividend with a franking credit and if somebody doesn’t have other tax liabilities to offset that, they’re entitled to get the difference in cash. That is completely fair. It’s been the case for nearly 20 years.”

    Writing to The Australian yesterday, former Treasury secretary John Stone backed Mr Turnbull’s criticism.

    Mr Stone said Paul Keating had not gone far enough after introducing dividend imputation relief in 1987 to correct the “injustice” of double taxation whereby “dividend recipients had no or *insufficient other taxable income against which to offset their credits”.

    Mr Stone said this was “finally rectified” by Coalition treasurer Peter Costello in 2001, after the budget had been taken back into surplus. He warned that Mr Shorten’s policy on franking credits would “restore that injustice”.

    The Association of Independent Retirees warned the Labor policy could “push more retirees onto the Aged Pension much earlier than would currently be the case” and “negate the short-term revenue gains anticipated”.

    “You need to engage with your federal member of parliament and bring to their attention the concerns described above that AIR has with Labor’s announced policy on dividend imputation credits,” it said in a letter to its members.

    The Self-Managed Super Fund Association produced figures showing that a single homeowner with $580,000 in superannuation (who had saved enough to forgo the Age Pension) could lose $5357 in franking credits — a reduction in yearly income from $28,357 to $23,000, or a cut of 18.8 per cent.

    SMSF Association head of policy Jordan George said the drop to $23,000 in income was only $112 above the full Age Pension and Age Pension supplement of $22,888 which can be accessed by a homeowning single person with assets of less than $253,750.

    “Self-funded retirees who have assets just above the Age Pension assets test thresholds may be worse off under the Labor proposal than those with less assets but receiving the Age Pension,” Mr George said. “This is a perverse outcome.”
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    People on incomes less than $18k - rely on franking credits!

    Oh no they don't.

    I thought it was pretty funny as well.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    The Catholic Church has lined up with the world's other religious zealots and is actively involved in the Batman by-election.

    They are calling every house, pushing for the Labor vote.

    It's about time all religions paid tax.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Bye bye Jay. I guess the battery went flat
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Yet again, a Q&A panelist displayed a total ignorance of the taxation system.

    Meanwhile, Sloan nails it again (Jeff, of course, knows all this, but I suspect there's too much Labor rust in his knuckles for him to admit it ):

    What has amazed me most since Labor bizarrely announced its intention to scrap cash refunds for franking credits is how ignorant are many commentators.

    I understand that members of the public may be confused, but when it is your professional duty to understand what you are writing about, that’s different.

    The principle of dividend imputation is straightforward. Companies pay tax on profits, but when those profits are returned to the shareholders (the company’s owners) via dividends, the tax paid on these dividends is adjusted for the tax already paid by the company. In this way, double taxation is avoided. It’s not hard.


    Let me give some examples. If an individual earns more than $180,000 a year, the marginal income tax is 47 per cent, including the Medicare levy.

    When that individual receives dividends from a company issuing fully franked dividends, the tax on the dividends is 17 per cent — 47 per cent minus the 30 per cent already paid.

    When an individual earns less than $18,200 and pays no tax, then the individual receives a cash refund of 30 per cent. This is only fair. Without cash refunds, the effect on very low-income earners would be a tax of 30 per cent on dividends.


    Compare that with someone on more than $180,000 who pays 17 per cent. It’s really impossible to fathom why anyone, let alone an informed commentator, would endorse this. (Of course, there are complications, including the higher tax-free threshold for seniors and the tax-free status of superannuation retirement earnings within the $1.6 million asset cap. But the principle remains the same.)


    But let me get to another point of total confusion on the part of the commentariat — the proposition that cash refunds are somehow different from tax rebates/deductions, which lead to lower tax being paid. From the budget bottom line, of course, there is absolutely no difference because cash paid out is exactly the same as less tax being paid.


    For anyone who follows the annual tax expenditure statement by the Treasury, this is the point. It’s not just government spending that affects the budget but the various other tax measures that lead to lower tax revenue.


    So when Labor’s Bill Shorten huffs and puffs about the annual cost of cash rebates going from $550m in 2000 to $5.6 billion now, and $8bn in future, what is his point? Why not talk about the overall “cost” of the imputation credits being used by taxpayers? Either he believes in dividend imputation or he doesn’t.


    But the refrain becomes that we can’t afford it. We could in 2000, we can’t now. Actually, the budget position was none too swish at the turn of the century and the iron ore price was ridiculously low.


    More hard decisions and trade-offs need to be made now to repair the budget. Mind you, the real problem has been on the spending side, not revenue. But these hard decisions need to be informed by who wins and who loses from proposed policy changes.

    This is why Labor’s policy to ditch cash refunds is so hard to understand — the losers will be those on low incomes with a few shares who won’t be able to rearrange their affairs to continue to capture the value of franking credits. Everyone else will be unaffected.

    Opposition Treasury spokesman Chris Bowen has made the claim that 50 per cent of the cash refunds are being paid to the owners of the largest 10 per cent of self-managed superannuation funds. That can’t be fair, according to him. The trouble for Bowen is that he is necessarily working off out-of-date figures, before the $1.6m cap was introduced in July last year. Most of the assets in these large funds will have now been transferred to accumulation funds, which can continue to take advantage of the franking credits because they pay tax. They will also hold a variety of assets, not just franked shares.

    The new Labor policy may require a bit more rearrangement by these high-value SMSFs, but there will be minimal financial impact on the beneficiaries. It’s the low-income earners who get thumped.


    And here’s the thing: if half of the cash refunds are going to these large SMSFs and they are able to arrange their affairs to continue to capture the value of the franking credits, there goes about $30bn of the $59bn savings across 10 years that Labor is assuming.

    But here’s a more general point that commentators need to take into account: franking credits end up in the hands of those who can make greatest use of them.

    Post the Labor policy change, shares will be sold up by those who can no longer access cash refunds and purchased by people who can continue to take advantage of the franking credits because they pay tax. The net fiscal impact of this policy may end up being very modest indeed; nothing like $59bn. Sure, cash refunds may be lower, but the total budgetary cost of franking credit rebates won’t be much affected.

    The trouble for the Opposition Leader and Bowen is that they have been taking their riding instructions from the folk who populate the research departments of the union-affiliated industry super funds and union-affiliated research centres.

    The ditching of cash refunds for franking credits won’t affect the industry super funds, a point Bowen readily admits. Because industry super funds pay tax as an entity, there is plenty of tax payable that can be used to continue to access the value of the franking credits.

    The bottom line is this: it is a crazy policy that completely misunderstands how the tax code works in respect of dividend imputation. It’s like telling people to send back their annual income tax refund cheques — you know, because they have paid too much tax — and be happy.

    The $59bn is completely illusory and should not be factored into any budget forecasting exercise. It is not the amount that can be used to pay for new spending, reduce some income tax scales or even slightly repair the budget.

    At a minimum, Bowen needs to come clean and release the exercise undertaken by the Parliamentary Budget Office to arrive at $59bn. After all, taxpayers pay for the PBO; there is no case for any confidential reports being undertaken, full stop.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Frankly - Welfare

    I must admit, it is not easy to wrap my head around this. Its alien territory to me, something only people with a lot of disposable income throughout their lives can indulge in. Or maybe retirees with cash who got some good financial advice just before the finish line. But here's my grab.

    It must be kept in mind that when economists, and probably politicians, talk of income in this context - they mean taxable income.
    There is non-taxable income, so total income can be much greater than the income they are talking about.
    Then there is also total wealth. (a retired person who has rented all their life will have a lot less wealth than a person on the same income who has bought a couple of houses but didn't have any fun).

    For example; 468 people, with a total income over $180k but a taxable income below the tax free threshold, claimed $9.2million in franking credits in 2014-15. (ABS). About $20k each - not sure if the $180k is before or after that. Either way, they're not suffering.

    About 10% of over 65's claim about 42% of the value of all Franking credits.
    A further 43% of the franking credits go to people under 65, with a taxable income above $180k - on average about $60k a year each.
    Basically old rich people, who own their own houses and a few others, are getting a lions share of the benefit.

    Of the remaining franking credit claims, an average of about $800 per year is claimed. Only a very few of them would be 'on the bread line pensioners, on full pension' and I would expect this segment of beneficiaries would be easy to single out and uncomplicated to compensate. These are probably the people who do require the credits most because they've probably banked on having them to support their retirement and do truly RELY on them, in the fullest sense of that word, for individual annual expenses, insuring their house perhaps.

    Keep in mind these are a small number of people, the way some EverRight commentators are talking about it, they appear to be the majority of the population and Labour are tearing down the fabric of society (is that hyperbole or hysteria?).

    However the EverRights must be thrilled with this new initiative considering how much they whinge about fictional dole bludgers. Taking the vastly more expensive middle and upper-class welfare away from those who most definitely don't need it should come as a real win.
    (except of course its their welfare - so probably not).
    Also, as it is upper-class welfare, it is a cost, and we all know how much the EverRights want to bring down spending. The little double think that 'giving someone something - cheers mate', silently turns into 'not paying at all mate, what are you on about' and gradually turns into 'that's mine, bugger off'.

    In the USA companies pay tax on their profits, AND, shareholders pay income tax on their dividends too. Some call it double taxing - others say its the company paying their tax and the individual paying theirs. Australia is not going all the way there, and it feels right that we don't, for now.
    But, that a company pays its share of tax on its profits is correct to my mind. That this company tax can effectively be reduced by some clever tax avoidance maneuvers is a loophole that requires fixing.

    There are minutiae in there that i have yet to digest, but overall it feels like a very fair correction of an unnecessary spend - if those poor buggers who have only the OLP can be looked after. Which shouldn't be difficult I would have thought. (Old Age Pension, including extra for utilities is only $23k a year - thats just inside starvation levels. Significantly made up of mums who never worked because culturally it was unacceptable - and even for a time, illegal, for them to do so).

    Well done Labour - good catch!
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    If I'm not mistaken, interest on home loans is deductible in the USA, so if you want to discuss the details of of their taxes, discuss it all.

    And, for dogs sake, it isn't a benefit. It's the way of avoiding double taxation. Last car I bought, I had to pay stamp duty on the GST. Taxes on taxes. It's bizarre
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    I pay no tax, get no pension but have had my medical card reinstated recently, get a small amount from franking credits. I am not particularly worried, it's been a rort for some time. However It's my guess, now that Batman is out of the way and SA wasn't a Labour disaster, that the policy will be modified. That is standard procedure, announce the worst case, let the opposition get hot under the collar and then modify it to what you originally intended. I bet Labour research said that most of those effected weren't labour voters anyhow. And of course it puts Labour on the front foot as regards policy, the Government spokespersons I have seen lately seem to either mouth prepared statements to all questions, or have a whine in their voice and repeat "Shorten, Shorten Shorten" on a regular rotation throughout the interviews.

  28. #2408
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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    I agree, it is a rort - it's effectively a way of reducing company tax dressed up as reducing income tax.
    But if people have planned their retirement relying on it - that could sting.

    Just thinking it through - very hypothetical clearly;
    If a company made a hundred dollars profit per shareholder.
    It paid $30 company tax per shareholder.
    All the beneficiaries of the remaining $70 each have no taxable income.
    So they get the franking credit of $30 each as a cash refund.
    Net result is, the profitable company hasn't paid any tax..... Effectively right yeah?

    What has that company done to deserve that kind of public support?
    How do they contribute to the roads/legal structures/education systems that undergird them?
    Does the argument "we created employment, our employees pay for that" hold water? Or should everyone benefiting from a secure, law abiding, educated society, contribute?
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I pay no tax, get no pension but have had my medical card reinstated recently, get a small amount from franking credits. I am not particularly worried, it's been a rort for some time. However It's my guess, now that Batman is out of the way and SA wasn't a Labour disaster, that the policy will be modified. That is standard procedure, announce the worst case, let the opposition get hot under the collar and then modify it to what you originally intended. I bet Labour research said that most of those effected weren't labour voters anyhow. And of course it puts Labour on the front foot as regards policy, the Government spokespersons I have seen lately seem to either mouth prepared statements to all questions, or have a whine in their voice and repeat "Shorten, Shorten Shorten" on a regular rotation throughout the interviews.
    It is NOT a rort.

    Its there so that tax is only paid once on a unit of income.

    It's no different to international double taxation treaties. If an Australian company pays tax in say the USA, on profits made there, they don't pay any further tax on that profit when it is repatriated to Australia (unless our rate of tax is higher). Same deal.

    You do understand what a non-franked dividend is, don't you? Let's say you have the misfortune to be a Qantas shareholder... and they pay you a dividend this year on their record profits. I haven't checked, but I doubt they have any franking credits... as they haven't paid tax, due to accumulated losses. So... assuming their dividend is un-franked... the recipient has to pay tax. Yes.... I just checked, their 7c interim dividend is 0% franked, ie recipient pays tax on it. Last year's interim dividend was 50% franked and the final dividend 0%.

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    I agree, it is a rort - it's effectively a way of reducing company tax dressed up as reducing income tax.
    But if people have planned their retirement relying on it - that could sting.

    Just thinking it through - very hypothetical clearly;
    If a company made a hundred dollars profit per shareholder.
    It paid $30 company tax per shareholder.
    All the beneficiaries of the remaining $70 each have no taxable income.
    So they get the franking credit of $30 each as a cash refund.
    Net result is, the profitable company hasn't paid any tax..... Effectively right yeah?

    What has that company done to deserve that kind of public support?
    How do they contribute to the roads/legal structures/education systems that undergird them?
    Does the argument "we created employment, our employees pay for that" hold water? Or should everyone benefiting from a secure, law abiding, educated society, contribute?
    You need to do some more thinking. Please explain how divident imputation reduces company taxes?

    In your example, you first say the company paid $30 tax (ie 30%)... then you say it paid no tax. Eh? Did someone hand it back to the company? Nope.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Feeling too tired to dragged into a slagging match but, assuming it won't descend to that as usual, i was speaking in generalised terms.
    The amount of tax revenue collected on the profits of my hypothetical company is zero.
    Yes the government handed the money, paid as company tax, back to the owners of the company - the shareholders. So, without having to look at it too obliquely - there is
    Effectively
    no tax paid.

    The tax payers of Australia got zilch for providing fertile ground to a company that made a profit.
    And shareholders got tax returned when they hadn't paid any tax - the company did.

    Hypothetically in this case.
    All other cases are just shades of this example.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    It appears there are only 2 other countries with the Dividend Imputation system we have, UK and NZ. If its so good.......

    2006 appraisal of the system, looks like the Libs missed the boat - they could have done this as part of their reasoning for a corporate tax cut.
    In October 2006, the Committee for Economic Development of Australia released a report, Tax Cuts to Compete, concluding that dividend imputation had proved an inefficient means of reducing Australia's cost of capital. The report, authored by prominent economist Dr Nicholas Gruen, argued that the elimination of imputation would allow the funding of a substantial corporate tax cut. This would attract foreign investment and thus increase economic growth, it said.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Shades of, indeed. Your example is so far off the end of the bell curve that it's, of course, non-existent. In the interest of balance, perhaps you'd give the example from the other end of the curve.

    As for dividend imputation... you forgot countries like Canada, Korea and Singapore. Oops... hold that last one, Singapore doesn't tax dividends. Then there's the countries that don't tax income... but you forgot them too.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    As far as i know those other countries only have a partial dividend imputation system.
    So they don't get the full value of the franking credit, only some of it. Kind of half way house. But okay chuck them in if you think its material.

    I didn't forget countries that don't tax income, they are not germane. You are attempting to expand the issue, that is move the goal posts, so it becomes intractable. Just like introducing specific tax deductibles in the USA. Its just deflection and uncostructive.

    All taxes are intertwined, but the process you are subscribing to requires a perpetual overhaul of the system, root and branch, in a way that can never be resolved - ever. Completely impractical.

    Accepting that this perpetual revolution in taxation is NOT on the cards, looking at the imputation system in isolation is justified. My example is supra-hypothetical, i did not shy away from that; it is as you describe in the furthest standard deviations. Perhaps you could expand the other end of that curve to show justification for the system - i am genuinely interested to hear it.

    Currently the system is geared to benefit the already rich disproportionately. Sure, some not already rich people get some marginal benefit, but the vast bulk of it goes to people who don't really need it. It is a cost (all tax cuts are in effect costs) and welfare for the rich. Calling it anything else is just semantics.

    If this was taking money off poor people the conversation would be quite different; taking from the poor and giving to the rich grows the economy (in spite of the weight of evidence against that argument). But its close to home - someone is taking away one of the rich peoples welfare checks, and that's not the way it is supposed to work - the system is meant to take from the poor and give to the rich, it has been twisted into that over decades. Its a right, indeed an entitlement.

    Small beer, their loss will be immaterial to them and the small amount gained will disappear into the debt pit unnecessarily dug by the coalition.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics


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    Default Re: Some real Aussie Politics

    Pollies, they just want the public to hate them.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

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