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Thread: Blue Canoe

  1. #1
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    Default Blue Canoe

    Duck works has a launch of a Blue canoe, there are no details but it looks a well sorted compromise between a kayak and open canoe along the lines of a Solway Dory. Does anyone have any details of this craft.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    On YouTube the builder comments it's his own design. Perhaps you could ask for more info there.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=33&v=DGPXdUslprQ

    Brian

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Thanks I have just tried that, Youtube and my iPad don't like each other tonight, it just freezes when I try to add a comment. Will try again tomorrow

    Tink

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Link got me a vid of the guy paddling a decked 'canoe' from an on board camera. He stood up, it's stable. It has a centreboard so it sails. Sound but no dialogue. No way of telling proportion but as he paddles his fingers are very close to the gunwales. I paddle and sail a decked Macgreggor and I know that problem.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    That was my gut feeling as well, both sitting high with a single blade and sitting low with a double blade. That deck/hull joint would be a real knuckle-buster and he hits it with either the paddle or his hands on about 90% of the strokes.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Ian posted a sailing video on Duckworks Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/groups/duck...5369782018739/

    and youtube link

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=a5w4O8GB59A

    seems she is 13'9" x 32"

    Brian

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    I think that the Utube in #2 is time compressed. Check the cars on the bridge at 2:44.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Hi folks. Thanks for the interest in my project. Maybe I can answer a few of the questions.

    The canoe/kayak came about very quickly. I live in North Texas and the recent flooding has closed all the boat ramps and beach access on the local lakes. I haven't been able to launch anything. Duckworks had a run of articles about these quick to build foam kayaks recently. I realized I could launch one of those about 100 yards from my house and get back on the water. I've never used a kayak and haven't been in a canoe since I was a kid, but now there was an interest.

    It didn't take long to realize I didn't want to fill my garage up with foam beads or spend the money on epoxy to lay down two layers of 6oz glass on one of the foam boats. I was really sure that the end result would be a really ugly boat. I've done enough stuff with foam and fiberglass to know my own limitations in that medium. I still liked the general idea, so started drawing up a simple version using ply. The first drawings immediately included some accommodation for sailing, but it took a few revisions to really settle in on that aspect.

    The conditions at the launch site drove a lot of the design. The boat had to be fairly light (came in at 70lbs painted). I had to be able to get under a low bridge with the mast stepped and it had to paddle reasonably well for short distances (mile or less usually). As far as the build, it needed to be simple, so it could go in the water quickly. I spent about a week noodling on the drawings and then had the boat launched a month later. The box cross-section is purely for build simplicity. The constant 10 inch tall sides simplified the layout and cutting the ply. I intend to spend more time under sail than paddle, so the beam reflects that. The length is just a little less than what requires registration in Texas. I tried to pay attention to the aesthetics inside those limits, but they weren't the biggest concern.

    I'd like to say it's a nuanced design based on studying the last hundred years of canoe and kayak development, but it's not the case. It's the result of current conditions and circumstances, executed as quickly as possible. All the details that work, were figured out by other designers on other boats. I'll take credit for the mistakes. Those are mine.

    The video of the launch is the first time I ever tried to use a double paddle. After a couple times out, that is the preferred paddle. The canoe paddle is too much work and hard on the knuckles. I got a 94" paddle because of the beam, but it's still a little too fat at the gunwale for serious paddling. I could see going for a couple hours, but not covering any serious distance. I usually paddle 500-1000 yards to get clear of the bridge and raise the sail.

    It's much less compromised for sailing. I have two sails drawn up. The first is slightly bigger than the current hacked together lateen (37 sq. ft.) at 42 sq. ft. I also have a larger balance lug for days when I want it to be a little more sporting. CE for both sails falls in the same spot relative to the dagger board. The foils are well built with a nice section using templates. The helm is very light and responsive. It all seems very well behaved so far. The skinny beam requires a bit more attention, but keeps it interesting.

    Anyway, those are most of my current rationalizations about this project. Seems like it was worth the effort so far. We'll see if that's still true by the end of the summer. Here's the most recent video, which shows the boat a lot better. Anything you want to know, just ask.

    Ian

    Blue Canoe - Light Wind

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Great story Ian and great result, keep having fun

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Welcome to the forum.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Here's the latest with the blue canoe experiment. These videos show it being sailed for the first time with the big 89 sq. ft. balance lug from our Goose. Also the first try at using a sliding seat. It's a handful to keep everything together, but a lot of fun. I've got a couple problems that need to get sorted out, but nothing that can't be solved.

    Big Lug
    Outtakes

    Ian

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    airbiker,

    I was wondering if you wouldn't do much better if you could fit the Blue Canoe with oarlocks and a pair of oars. Have you given that any thought? I do admire you're creativity in trying to deal with the lousy situation there at Lake Lewisville.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Looks like you're doing quite well Ian, and having a lot of fun. It made me wonder how it would do in that mode with a moderate reduction in sail area (maybe down to 55-60 sq. ft. or so) allowing you to sheet in a bit more without heavily depowering the whole thing, and whether it might handle the lulls a bit better that way. In any case, it's nice to see it work so well. I suppose adding a Sunfish bailer might also be worth doing, but until it got filled up with water from the capsize, it was surprisingly dry for such a low-sided hull. Good show!

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    My decked Macgreggor at 15'6'' x 32" has a 50sq ft balanced lug sail, quite big enough I find on our big coastal bay.. I have fitted her for rowlocks.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Thanks. Definitely having fun. It's my $400 version of an IC.

    The sail is supposed to have two reef points, which I never installed. Might be a good idea now. It's not just reducing the area, it's also about lowering the CE. That should take away some of the sensitivity when the the wind is fluky. When the wind is more consistent, the full sail should work until you run out of plank.

    Sailing after the capsize shows a strong argument for sealing the front air box. That way the boat would balance better, even if the cockpit was full of water. If I ever get around to a version two, I'd probably bring the front deck all the way to the rear of the center case and seal it up. The side decks could be a little wider too. As is, I think some cockpit coaming is going to get added. An automatic bailer makes sense. There's no way I could bail while sailing. Not yet anyway.

    My sailing chops should get tuned up considerably by the time I get this figured out. It's a hoot, even with the occasional swim.

    Ian

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    I use a couple of big beach inflatable rollers strapped under the side decks if I'm sailing in dodgy conditions, or expect them. Recovery after a capsize is a difficult exercise as the cockpit fills and the canoe is unstable when flooded. The rollers ensure that much less water enters the cockpit and provide a comfortable seat. Sail has two reef points.
    I built sliding seat for rowing but only used it a few times.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Well done Ian, another great video
    http://youtu.be/DnhxTB0bzv4
    looks like you have moved the seat back and this makes sense looking at the earlier vids. It looks like some tricky foot work when tacking. On ICs we bought the feet aft of the seat onto the dance floor, this was stable and quick. We stood up behind the boom, not sure how long you boom is. Reducing the aft deck looks like a big mod to do though. Great effort and fast development, I am very impressed

    Tink

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Thanks. You're correct, the seat came back 8 inches to improve the fore/aft trim. Seems about right now. When there was more space, standing behind the seat seemed to be the right choice for tacks. Yesterday standing in front seemed to work better. I would love to carve the rear deck back another 6-12 inches, but it may be faster to just build another hull. There's a lot going on at that bulkhead.

    The boom is long on this rig. Just past the back of the cockpit. Another small complication when tacking. The light wind yesterday made it easier to start working out the moves a little. I just need more practice and time in the boat to get things smoothed out. I will need a plan when it's 15-20 kts and the rest of the righting moment can be used.

    The wind was really light. 0-5 kts. The biggest puff was probably well short of 10 kts. Even so, with the big sail on a light boat, it just takes off with a hint of wind. Lots of fun.

    Ian

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Here are a couple pictures I took while setting up the boat. You can't really see the whole thing in the videos.

    Ian




  20. #20
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Re your hiking board, I haven't tried that on the Mac but I have tried a rudimentary trapeze. Not really suitable.
    Re your deep rudder and hard chines, I'm often sailing on just a few inches of water and my rudder is lateral rather than vertical. Your hard chines combined with the rudder probably means you don't need a leeboard.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    This one is geared towards racing/day sailing more than expeditions or exploring. I don't have to deal with shallow water except for launching or returning to the beach. I can pull the dagger board up as I come in and the rudder will kick up by itself. The hard chines don't make as much difference as I thought when the dagger board is up all the way. It's pretty happy to start sliding sideways without it.

    Ian

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Ian, how are you finding your helm balance with the single lug? By guesstimating from photos, it looks like the CE is behind the CLR of the board, maybe behind the trailing edge, and maybe a foot ahead of the CLR of the entire underwater profile minus the rudder.
    John Allison
    Austin, TX

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Good eye. The CE of the sail is pretty close to the trailing edge of the dagger board. Maybe slightly behind it. I think the actual lateral resistance of the hull is negligible, even with the hard chines, but the CLR of the hull is well aft of the CE.

    The first day out with the big lug, I had it rigged too far back by a couple inches and the helm was a bit weatherly. The next time out, I rigged the yard a couple inches more forward and the helm went neutral. The tiller has always been light. I think the center case could come back a couple inches. That would allow a little more leeway setting up the lug.

    Ian

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    I'm figuring out the position of a single pivoting leeboard for a 20 foot tacking proa/outrigger canoe. My mast steps further back so I can keep the leeboard closer to the widest part of the hull, but I'm looking at similar relative positioning. Daggerboards are tough to nail, being non-adjustable, but it sounds like you got it just about right on.
    Your boat moves very well in the videos and it looks like it handles pretty easily for a slider.
    John Allison
    Austin, TX

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Been following this on Facebook. Looks like a blast! Also perhaps a nice second boat for those days where set up or travel time for a larger boat makes the sailing schedule iffy. -- Wade

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    John, the reason I have the mast so far forward is to make it easier to get under the boom. It's a compromise, but I'm not as limber as I used to be.

    Ian

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Thanks Wade, it has been a lot of fun so far. Not exactly relaxing, but fun. If I built it again, there are a few things that would be less complicated on the hull and might be able to drop 5-10 lbs. 70 lbs isn't bad at all, but if the hull was closer to 60 lbs, car-topping and pickup truck racks get really easy. I wouldn't bother with the second smaller rig and sail. I would just use one or two reef points in the big sail to adjust the level of difficulty for the day.

    Ian

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by airbiker View Post
    John, the reason I have the mast so far forward is to make it easier to get under the boom. It's a compromise, but I'm not as limber as I used to be.

    Ian
    It's much better placement in terms of cockpit ergonomics. I retrofitted a similar sized pirough-style canoe with a single lug and leeboard with everything further back - again, leeboard placement being a limiting factor - and getting under the boom, even seated in the cockpit, is a pain. For the 20 footer I'm working on, there'll be more room overall, but there'll still be the boom to contend with.
    It's why god made mizzens.
    I'm always surprised when I see leeboard/daggerboard placement on various sailing canoe designs. It's hard to believe that the helm will balance when the leeboard is even with the mast foot as it is on some I've seen, no matter where the rig is placed. The proportions on yours make more intuitive sense.
    John Allison
    Austin, TX

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Here's the latest sailing video. My dad was in our Goose and we got to compare the two a little bit. Very light wind, so nothing terribly impressive going on. The camera was on the Goose, so it's the first time I was able to see how the canoe looked as it's sailing.

    https://youtu.be/pPrRUn-qUCA

    The fore/aft trim looks about right now. The shape of the new sail looks pretty decent. I'm fairly happy with things at this point. I have a few minor things to adjust with the rig and lines, but it feels really close. Also installed an Anderson bailer, which works great. If you're doing 2-3 kts, it almost sounds like a toilet flushing when it's popped open.

    Ian

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Looking good!
    John Allison
    Austin, TX

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Ian, I have been watching your Goose videos for a while now.

    To see you do 12kts in a 12ft "box" has inspired me to explore the speed and stability potential of the concept in my own amateur/enthusiast design effort. It just happened to be something of a blend between a Goose and a canoe...

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Glad to hear the videos have been useful. The Goose has surprised a lot of us. No one was expecting that kind of performance from something that looks like a packing crate.

    Looking forward to seeing what you mean by a blend between a Goose and a canoe.

    Ian

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    Here's the latest on the canoe project. Got out in the strongest wind yet. Maybe 5-15 with a couple puffs above that. Enough to squeeze out 9.4kts on the GPS. Lots of time over 7 knots.

    https://youtu.be/u3bzVphKXQo

    Didn't catch the swamping on video, but I managed fill the boat up with water. It happened pretty quickly. I got heeled over a little too far and water started pushing over the top of the deck on the leeward side. About 30-40 gallons later, the bow was level with the water and digging in. It went full submarine and that was the end of it. Didn't capsize, but couldn't bail with water coming over the front sitting still. I capsized on purpose and came back up only about half full. Almost made it out, but the bailer couldn't keep up with the chop still coming over the bow. We ended up towing the canoe back to the beach with the Goose.

    This should be solved by sailing flatter, but I need a little more room for mistakes. The front deck has been removed and I'm in the process of running the new deck back to the rear of the centercase. It will be completely sealed and separate from the side and rear flotation tanks. This will prevent being out of balance, even if the cockpit is full of water. It will also greatly reduce the amount of water the boat will hold. By running the deck back farther, it will take more heeling to start taking on water, giving me a little more room for error. When I still manage to screw up, I will be able to self-rescue, even if the water is rough.

    I think a real designer would have seen this coming.

    The canoe should be ready to go by the end of the week. I removed more wood than I'm adding back, so weight should be about the same or maybe even slightly lighter. I'll post more details when I have them.

    Ian

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    That canoe looks like a lot of fun in protected waters.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Blue Canoe

    The rework of the canoe deck is done. It worked out pretty well and the boat functions much better when heeled hard or going into chop. The seat got some attention as well to make it easier to use. Here are a couple minutes of the results.

    https://youtu.be/haUcDIq7-ZE

    Ian

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