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Thread: LYS Build Plans #582

  1. #36
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    I am planning the fiberglass and finishing and have a few questions, so here goes.

    I will be using Marine Epoxy from bateau.com (just because I know how it works).

    My plan at the moment is to glass the outside and inside. I am thinking 10 oz. fabric for the outside, bottom and topside deck. The inside deck, sides and console will get 6 oz. fabric. The side framing will just get several coats of epoxy.

    My calculation is 22 yards of 50" fabric for the outside/bottom. I figure 3 runs of 16 ft. by 50", 48 lineal ft. = 16 yards plus another 16 ft. by 50" for topside rounded up to the next yard is 6 yd.

    For the inside bottom and sides I get 19 yards of 50" fabric. Still 3 runs of 16 like the outside, 16 yards plus 3 yards for the console.

    Now for the questions:

    1. What is a good plan for coverage of that amount of fabric? I can't find a number anywhere that says anything about what volume of epoxy covers how many yards of fabric. I understand that "it depends" but I want something to give me rough idea. It mixes 2 to 1, so if I had a gallon of epoxy and half gallon of hardener will that get me through? I will be checking on their forums too, but I haven't seen this answer yet.
    2. Are 10 oz. and 6 oz. the right sizes? The weight and cost difference is not huge, but I would like to stay as light as possible. I figure it is not structural, more of a protective coat.


    I am a newby to fiberglass work, so any tips are appreciated.

    John

  2. #37
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Quote Originally Posted by shuffjb View Post


    1. What is a good plan for coverage of that amount of fabric? I can't find a number anywhere that says anything about what volume of epoxy covers how many yards of fabric. I understand that "it depends" but I want something to give me rough idea. It mixes 2 to 1, so if I had a gallon of epoxy and half gallon of hardener will that get me through? I will be checking on their forums too, but I haven't seen this answer yet.
    2. Are 10 oz. and 6 oz. the right sizes? The weight and cost difference is not huge, but I would like to stay as light as possible. I figure it is not structural, more of a protective coat.


    I am a newby to fiberglass work, so any tips are appreciated.

    John
    The rule of thumb is volume of epoxy in ounces equals the weight of the cloth in ounces, to achieve the recommended 50:50 glass to resin fraction. Before doing that math, you have to coat the wood in epoxy, which for laminates made up of light cloth may end up being significant. For example one square yard of 6 oz glass needs 6 oz of resin, but if you are placing it over raw wood that is fairly porous, you may end up needing to mix 9 oz epoxy.

    I would consider 1 layer of 10 or 12 oz glass over the whole bottom to "some distance" above the waterline, and the same on the sole. You may want to cover everything else with a layer of 6 oz if you can stomach the work, weight and expense, and need to prevent checking. It may be more economical to buy only 6 oz glass to get better pricing, and use 2 layers of the 6 oz where more is needed. It is not hard to wet out 2 layers of 6 oz glass at oncem by the way.

    As a first effort with epoxy and glass, buy 15% more than you calculate you need. And budget some ounces toward practice with laying up smaller parts first to see how the resin flows, how fast it goes off, how it fills weave, how you can handle corners, etc.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    If you talk with Jacques and whomever is operating the BBC store after Joel left (rightfully so), they will help you scale the purchase correctly. Also I've had rolls of 10oz in the shop that were overage, and ended up using it later on some other project. The stuff never goes bad, and it is convenient to have around, so a few yards isn't a bad thing to have in a tub somewhere.

    E

  4. #39
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    bwd,

    Thanks for the information! The 15% extra is a good suggestion, I will consider it tuition to "fiberglass school".

  5. #40
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Spokaloo,

    Thanks for the suggestion, I have a post on their forums as well.

    I hear you about having some around. What about epoxy and hardener, how long do they last?

  6. #41
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    I just used some hardener the other day that was 5 years old, worked just fine.

    E

  7. #42
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Of course you need left over goop and fabric! You know for the ___________________ you're itching to build next!

    (insert one or more : sailing dingy, cedar strip canoe, kayak, spare lys, SUP)
    Jon
    Building - Ulua Outrigger

  8. #43
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Are you going to round off the chines, and tape them before glassing the bottom and topsides? With the effort you are putting into this boat, a coaming and washboard would be a great addition (and stiffen the boat, too).
    Last edited by Skiff Man; 08-21-2015 at 09:16 PM. Reason: spelling

  9. #44
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Jon(flsail), you are right. I am pretty sure this is not going to be my only or last boat build . Sigh, another addiction.

    Skiff Man (love the handle),

    Chines: Yes, the plan is to round off the chines. Hadn't thought to tape them, would that be for extra abrasion resistance? On the LYS there is already a good amount of stainless screws and adhesive holding things together. Many of these are just painted.

    Coaming and Washboard: I am planning both. I am still learning on the nautical terms, but what I have called the top deck is probably more properly called washboard. It will be 3/4 ply about 7" from the outside edge (gunwale?) over top of the 2X8 framing with some knees added for additional support. Then on the inside of that I planned to place a board (coaming?) that stands up an inch or two above the washboard to keep spray from coming in. Here is a picture from Walter's build of a 20' LYS that shows the washboards:



    I plan similar on mine.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    The coaming and washboard create something like an H-beam out of the topsides of the boat. The hull topsides and rubrails act as one flange. The washboard is the web. And the coaming is the other flange. The stiffness of the assembly depends on the width of the washboard and the size of the coaming. A 3/4" thick washboard is really thick. The plywood washboard would generally be connected to the top of the inner rubrail or sheerclamp on the outboard side, and to a nailer running inboard of the coaming on the inboard side. The nailer is notched into the frames or knees. The coaming is fastened to the nailer and the frames or knees.

    Taping the chines is done to create bending strength and stiffness through this joint. It is highly stressed without thwarts or coaming and washboard.
    Last edited by Skiff Man; 08-21-2015 at 09:10 PM.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    taping the chines will cover the edge grain of the plywood bottom

    added chafing protection and helps prevent water intrusion into the plywood WHEN/AFTER you've rubbed up against something hostile

    WORTH THE TIME & $$, IMHO

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  12. #47
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Skiff Man,

    Thanks for the great explanation. Looks like the washboard/coaming will be doing more than holding up the Bimini Top . Tape adds strength, that makes sense.


    swoody126,

    Thanks for the info, another vote for taping, guess I will add that to my shopping list.


    So between the great info on this forum and a discussion with Jacques at Bateau.com, here is what I think I know about the fiberglass needed:

    First some rules of thumb:
    1. Wood must be coated with epoxy before laying fiberglass.
    2. Resin to fiberglass ratio by weight: 1 lb. of fiberglass needs 2 lb. of mixed resin. (Bateau's Marine Epoxy is 8 lb. per gallon)
    3. Resin to fiberglass ratio by yards: 1 yard of 6 oz. fiberglass needs 6 oz. of mixed resin.


    So for my boat I decided to just go 6 oz. everywhere since I will be taping the chines. Here is how my list looks now:


    1. 50 yd. of 6 oz. cloth (22 + 19 + 15%)
    2. 50 yd. roll of 9 oz. glass tape for chines and anywhere else a joint would be better taped.
    3. 5 gallons of resin/hardener (50 yd. weighs 18.75 lb. need 37.5 lb. of epoxy, 4.6 gal round up to 5)
    4. 3 more gallons to coat the wood.


    I will probably buy the cloth and the tape and make sure I have enough epoxy on hand for inside or outside before starting a session. My main concern was getting partway through a session and running out of epoxy. I can get more in a day, so I don't have to get it all at once.

    This weekend I should have the framing done and ready to put on the washboards, coaming and breast hook. I will also get the throttle and tachometer roughed in on the console. That's the plan anyway.

    John

  13. #48
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Keep up the good work! My lumber gets delivered Tuesday so I'm soaking up everything I can from your build and all the other builds I can find. I was underwhelmed by the detail in the plans so all the build logs are invaluable.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Ps1474,

    You should check out www.stagboatworks.com, there is a great LYSS build log there.

    There are a couple others here on woodenboat.com, http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...542-LYSS-Build and http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ber-Yard-Skiff

    Those should keep you reading for a while, all good stuff.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Haven't posted for a while, so here is an update. I am continuing with inside finishing stuff and tinkering with resin and fiberglass for practice. I got some of the slow hardener and it is much better to work with in 80-90 F temperatures.

    Top Rails final clamping on the starboard side:



    And... the posts come off! Trial fit of the console and frames:



    Side view of console and my un-sanded screw hole fillings:



    I am fabricating the framing for the breast hook and side decks. Had to get another sheet of 3/4 ply for the top deck., probably because I used 3/4 for the console. This weekend should see at least the side deck/breast hook framing complete, hopefully with decking in place too.

    Then we will be out of town for a couple of weeks, so the project will just sit for a bit.

    John

  16. #51
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    John, how about some photos of your finished skiff? Great thread, by the way. I bought Walt's plans, too.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Bill, Thanks for the kind words about the thread. No finished photos, sorry. Life, work, family took me away from the build for a while. Hard to believe it has been more than a year since I started, but I have picked up the project again and am making progress.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Back on the project, here are some progress notes.

    After noodling and trying several ideas, I settled on similar side decks (coaming/washboard) as I have seen on several other builds. Here is my version:


    Time to flip again, so out to the driveway (maybe some actual noodles will help):



    The noodles, the ladders, the ropes and come-along, what an adventure. At one point I had her standing on one side and was like the dog who caught a car and didn't know what to do with it. Luckily, someone passing by took pity on me and helped me get it the rest of the way over. Lesson learned: minimum for a flip = 2 people unless you have a good overhead setup in your shop.



    As always, what I planned to be 30 minutes or so took 3-4 hours. Oh well, building time is fun time, so I got to spend more of it .
    Last edited by shuffjb; 07-16-2016 at 10:50 AM. Reason: spelling

  19. #54
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    My favorite new power tool in this project is the power plane!

    False stem rough cut and glued in:



    planed nice and fair:



    and, bottom edges planed fair with sides.


  20. #55
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    My main goal with the flip was to finish the bottom and sides. Time to really dive in to the fiberglass pool.

    First I laid out and cut sides and bottom panels using 6oz. 50" wide fabric. I rolled these up and set them aside.

    Everything I have read says wet on wet is the best, so here I go... Mixed and rolled out resin on the sides and bottom. Laid out the starboard side glass, the tacky resin made it stick where it was put. Started at the aft end and wet it out using roller and auto body scraper. poured the resin in a tray to keep it from cooking too soon. I almost made it to the bow before disaster struck. The batch I was working started to gel and I panicked, trying to save it. What a mess, I will spare you the pictures, but a 2 X 2 ft. square of globs, wrinkles and bubbles was the result. I managed to get the rest of the way to the bow without any more glitches. Done for the evening, I drowned my sorrows and vowed to take it up the next day.

    You fiberglass experts know what I learned: anything you screw up can be sanded off and replaced/repaired. I am painting anyway, so who cares as long as it is smooth. The other things I learned were, smaller batches and work from the middle outwards alternating left/right to keep a wet edge. Here is how the port side went:




    Glass positioned.



    start in the middle...



    wet out from stem to stern (about 2 hours later)

    Along the way, I sort of gave up on wet-on-wet, just too much for my mostly solo sessions. I am sanding between for a good mechanical bond, so nearly as good.

    Now to lay the middle section on the bottom and the transom piece and the bottom will be sheathed.

    John

  21. #56
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    an old kid's swing set frame works well w/ a project of this size. check CraigsList in the FREE section as they sometimes show up there.

    b4 you cover your side decks put some extra reinforcement timber in the aft corners to anchor your mooring cleats

    just a couple thoughts

    keep the pics coming

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  22. #57
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Beautifully faired sides! Nice job with the fiberglass, too. One obviously wants to avoid a proud fastener head when firing up the power plane!
    Steve, the swing set idea is fabulous.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Steve: Thanks for the tip on reinforcing the aft corners, will definitely beef that up, don't want Jaws pulling my cleats out

    Bill: Thanks for the kind words.

    I am putting a layer of tape over the stem and then the fiberglass laying and wetting out will be done for the bottom and sides. Next, fill the weave with a slurry of micro balloons and silica, then quick fair, sand, rinse, repeat.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Looking great, thanks for the link!

  25. #60
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Latest progress update:

    Bottom, Sides and Transom Glassed and cured. Mixed a micro balloon slurry for filling the weave. Three coats, Thick, thinner, and thin:



    Sand, fill, sand, fill, rinse, repeat. Somehow I ended up with a "step" at the first bottom panel joint. Quick fair made it into more of a slope. More sanding and time to put on the "shoes" (runners along the bottom).

    Since I got the hang of the wood flour filled epoxy "glue" I have been using this more. It is a good choice here because it can help fill gaps and is compatible with the epoxy surface. Here are the shoes attached:



    Added wood flour / epoxy filets:




    Continued next post...

  26. #61
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Progress update continued...


    After lots of reading and discussion with my son in law, decided to put dynel on the shoes and cover the bottom in graphite. The dynel/graphite should provide some abrasion resistance and solves the question of "what kind of bottom paint?". The boat will live on a trailer, so fouling should not be an issue. I am using 68" wide dynel and fitting 2 overlapping strips to cover the 112" length of the shoes.

    Here is the layout and fitting of the dynel "socks" for the "shoes" (couldn't resist):

    Cut strips:



    Roll up for easier handling (yes that is a British Seagull in the background, yes it still runs):




    Wet out with epoxy before trimming:



    Trimmed, light sanding to knock off the rough spots, some quick fair to level out the overlapped joint, then first coat of graphite. Mixed 25% by volume, used a sifter to get finer particles only, spread with body scraper and cigar rollers. The hull itself is pretty smooth already, but need to fill the weave on the dynel.



    Sure is fun how the finish is shiny even though there are still imperfections. For the next coat I mixed some micro balloons and graphite to about ketchup consistency and focused just on the dynel. Got the weave filled pretty well, so back to just 25% graphite by volume for coat 2.5:




    So that brings the project up to date as of yesterday afternoon. Plans for today are light sanding and one more coat of graphite. Hopefully that will be done and done for the bottom.

    Side note on the where the line is masked on the sides: I struggled with where to make the switch from graphite to topside paint. I looked at lots of boats and boat pictures. The 2 obvious choices are waterline or just an even line with the bottom (in case that is different from the waterline). From the drawings, I have a good starting point for the waterline, but then what if my boat sits higher or lower or at a different trim angle? Since she will live on the trailer most of the time, I figured that is where the transition should look best, so I opted for a 3" offset from the bottom all the way around. If it looks weird in the water, I guess I can mask and paint some more topside paint to fix it later.

    Another side note: sanding graphite filled epoxy presents special challenges. Either Wet Sand or use some kind of collection system (I am using a shop vac with a paper filter bag). You still get kind of covered with the stuff, but it keeps the dust to a minimum.

    Thanks for reading, now it is off to the shop for me.

    John

  27. #62
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    WOW, a yacht quality bottom job on a LYS

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  28. #63
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Thanks for the kind words Steve! I hope I can do well on the topsides since that will be a lot more visible.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Wow, 2017 already. I better hustle or this will be officially a 2+ year build. As usual, other life priorities have kept me away from building, but I have gotten a few things done. With the bottom finished, it was time to flip again. Non-event with a few helpers. Here she is upside down for the last time (I hope):



    I built a "ladder" support out of 2X8's and 2x4's and placed split "noodles" on the top as pads. We placed the boat right side up on this and I put the dollies under the ladder:



    continued next post

  30. #65
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Did not get pictures, but one Saturday I got the transom cut out for the motor done. Sized it for my normal shaft (20") motor by measuring 20" up from a level placed on the bottom. Almost broke my wrist when the hole saw I was using to radius the corners grabbed. 1/2" drill motor has amazing torque.

    The plan for interior finish is to put 6 oz. glass and resin on the sides, resin and dynel on the sole. I am going to try the idea of using the dynel as a non-skid surface as I have seen others here do. So, first put a coat of resin to feed the thirsty plywood. Sides:



    Sole:



    Again no pictures of the process, but wrapped the top edge of the transom with 6 oz. tape to cap the end grain and provide some additional protection.

    Continued...

  31. #66
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Laminated transom knee from 4 sheets of 3/4 ply, cut to shape and glued in place. I came up with a trick that may be old hat to everyone here, but thought I would share. I hot glued scraps of wood on the line so that the knee would not slip and slide while it cured in place. Then once it cured, pop them off with a chisel. A little bit of cleanup, but worked pretty slick. Here is a sequence showing the trick:

    Blocks in place:



    Knee in place between the blocks:



    Woodflour thickened epoxy and taped to hold during cure:



    I joked with my friends that I could just replace the duct tape if the knee ever became loose

    continued...

  32. #67
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    And last for this round of updates, time to trial fit the motor and mark the bolt holes. In the process I found out that there was no tilt pin installed. I will need to get one before sea trials. Oh well, it was still a good craigslist buy.




    So, now time to get all the junk out of the boat and start figuring out where the seat, console, controls, electric, fuel lines, etc. should be. Really the final placement, I have a rough idea, but want to be really sure before finalizing.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    you can never be too careful w/ a 1/2" drill

    i have 3 screws in my right hand because of one

    is it time to locate/install the drain plug while you still have full access?

    no need to ask how i know about the timing of this operation...

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  34. #69
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    I like your hot glue trick, less screw holes to fill.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: LYS Build Plans #582

    Quote Originally Posted by swoody126 View Post
    you can never be too careful w/ a 1/2" drill

    i have 3 screws in my right hand because of one

    is it time to locate/install the drain plug while you still have full access?

    no need to ask how i know about the timing of this operation...

    sw
    Steve, I can guess how you know since I have had some of those same "learnings" about timing .

    So drain plug idea always sets off this debate in my head:
    anti: Eric (spokaloo) didn't install one and says he just rocks the boat to let the bilge pump drain it out.
    anti: I read in several places that most rot in wooden hulls starts around a through hole somewhere (like a drain)

    pro: draining all the blood, guts, sand and other stuff is real easy.
    pro: no need to mop up that last bit that the bilge pump would not get.

    I still have some time before all the finish parts are in place. I am leaning towards the pro side at the moment. I actually have the brass tube and a plug for it, so that makes it easier to do.

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