Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 64

Thread: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Adelaide, Australia
    Posts
    421

    Default How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    I'm interested in ways to develop a lines plan from an existing hull, I have an old possibly pre 1950 river motor sailer that I'd like to develop a lines plan for.

    I see a little bit online but nothing very specific about how to develop a lines plan easily for an existing hull.

    The site, http://www.123dapp.com/ came up in search results a few times, but I think it was going to be about 5k for the software and the required setup. Looked like a cool way to do it thought as it used stickers to develop the lines.

    I've heard about others mentioning using photos or video to develop a lines plan, but again couldn't find anything really useful on the subject from a little bit of searching, could be that i just am not using the right terminology though.

    I've also emailed Mystic Seaport as I'd heard they have a method for developing lines using a theodolite/laser setup, hooked back up to the computer. So am waiting to hear back on that one.

    Cheers
    My First Boat Build:
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...acgregor-Canoe
    Iain Oughtred - Macgregor Canoe - 15 foot

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,576

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Anything wrong with using a string line, tape measure and level? I watched some Lloyds surveyors taking lines of a yacht using just a laser measure/rangefinder fixed to a long spirit level, after marking off a square around the perimeter of the boat they took readings every foot along the length and i think the stick/level was marked for taking 8 different height readings. I recall seeing software that can "read" photos or use stickers as reference points but that tech is way beyond me. Im sure numbers from measuring can possibly be loaded into Sketch-up as data points to produce hull lines. Any valid reason for wanting to have it all stuffed into a computer?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,933

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    If you are practised at lofting a set of lines a bit of thought will allow you to figure out how best to measure your boat. The best method will vary from boat to boat, and will be affected by whether she is level ford and aft. It is normally a two handed job.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Geraldton, Western Australia
    Posts
    493

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    At work we measure the shape of our telescopes with a technique called photogrammetry. We stick retro reflective targets all over the surface, then take a pile of photos with a carefully calibrated camera and feed them through special software. We're able to map the surface to ac accuracy of better than a millimetre.

    Even with all that to hand, if I was measuring a boat hull I'd use a laser level and tape measure. Much more straightforward.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Pukekohe, New Zealand
    Posts
    168

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Wooden Boat has some helpful articles on taking lines of boats.
    August 2002 Edition # 167 has a useful article by George Loos.
    He compares the traditional technique with the use of a laser level.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Up to camp
    Posts
    8,035

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    There is the free publication written in part by our frend Ben Fuller that tells you everything you need to do to do it the good old fashioned way.

    http://www.museumsmallcraft.org/publications.html

    Too bad you are on the other side of the world, Perhaps you could reach out through the intertubes to the folks in St Michaels at CBMM.org. I do not have all of the details, but they have just measured some of their historic log canoes utilizing the latest digital and optical technology, I believe under the auspices of the National Park Service. Perhaps Forumite Arko will chime in if he knows more.
    Steve Martinsen

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    UK. Cornwall, Suffolk.
    Posts
    4,523

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    I did some research in this a while ago, as I'm going to do it for the first time soon.
    You can either measure from the inside, starting with a centre line, going out to the planks, or measure the outside starting from a centreline. I imagine a string square set out around the hull using a centreline above the deck as a datum would be easier.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Adelaide, Australia
    Posts
    421

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Just found a good little section in the back of Allan H Vaitses book on how to pick up lines on a hull. He mentions some of the very valid copyright issues too.

    Will wait to hear back from Mystic seaport to see if they have any more info on what's involved in using the big lasers / theodolites they use when building houses and the like.

    Very interested in those photogammetry techniques as well.

    Looks like rhino do a bit on the photogammetry front:
    http://www.rhinophoto3d.com/applicat...html?showall=1

    Looks like there is an Open Source Alternative to 123d as well:
    VisualSFM
    http://ccwu.me/vsfm/

    seems like a reasonable amount of work in getting photogammetry right though.
    My First Boat Build:
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...acgregor-Canoe
    Iain Oughtred - Macgregor Canoe - 15 foot

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,933

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by simonmags View Post
    Just found a good little section in the back of Allan H Vaitses book on how to pick up lines on a hull. He mentions some of the very valid copyright issues too.

    Will wait to hear back from Mystic seaport to see if they have any more info on what's involved in using the big lasers / theodolites they use when building houses and the like.

    Very interested in those photogammetry techniques as well.

    Looks like rhino do a bit on the photogammetry front:
    http://www.rhinophoto3d.com/applicat...html?showall=1

    Looks like there is an Open Source Alternative to 123d as well:
    VisualSFM
    http://ccwu.me/vsfm/

    seems like a reasonable amount of work in getting photogammetry right though.
    You do not need anything more sophisticated than a long straight edge, plum bob, spirit level, tape measure and chalk. I have measured boats up to 62 foot with just those bits of kit.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,067

    Wink Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    You do not need anything more sophisticated than a long straight edge, plum bob, spirit level, tape measure and chalk. I have measured boats up to 62 foot with just those bits of kit.
    62 foot straight edge could be problematic?

    Whatever method is used the resultant points will have to be "faired" never accept them as correct.

    Which leads me to this tale.
    Production was falling behind and I needed more Shipwrights so as usual in these cases I was sent 6 Loftsmen and as per usual I took 6 Shipwrights off the launchways and sent them on the build replacing them with the said Loftsmen.

    The reason for this was I had found in the past that Loftsmen in their normal routine never encounter the problems that occur in the construction of the vessels they run the lines for. The result is that when things are not going to plan they were unable to adlib and get the job done.

    Practical people know and accept that there will be problems and can circumvent them, even to the point of hiding the fact that they have made a mistake themselves.
    Last edited by Chippie; 07-14-2015 at 12:04 PM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    U.K
    Posts
    704

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Used to play with photogrammetry 20 years ago, but I've been playing with laser scanners more recently.

    If you have the cash you could try one these http://www.hexagonmetrology.us/produ...leica-t-scan-5
    Gives you a CAD compatible point cloud which you can play with, a truly awesome technology.
    They do cheaper versions that would be suitable for boat work, and can be hired as well.
    Hope this doesn't sound like a sales pitch, but I'm like a kid with a new toy, using these at work for the last couple of months.

    More fun with string and levels though.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,436

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    The biggest issue in photogrammetric work which is relatively inexpensive as far as capturing information is the steep learning curve and expense in learning the requiste software. If you are only doing one, it makes little sense to spend the time and money. Your time will likely be less if you use manual methods.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,933

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    62 foot straight edge could be problematic?
    That depends on how tight you can pull the string.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Canada - From Sea to Sea
    Posts
    2,019

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That depends on how tight you can pull the string.
    Stretch-less string is on order.
    G. Rowe (Bayman)

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    21,666

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShagRock View Post
    Stretch-less string is on order.
    SS wire...

    Edit; Even doing this the "old fashion" way with string and sticks it is likely you will pick up some of the original builders errors or modifications. And even if the build was perfect (very few yards achieve this) vessels change shape while they are being built, while they are being repaired and just while they are floating and left alone. Witness the hogging seen on unladen vessels. After you have the offsets the thing will be redrawn or lofted which should show these errors, which can then be corrected or not. Perhaps you are only looking for errors, but it is unlikely you would want to recreate a vessel that is hogged or crooked, for whatever reason.
    if the lines are being used to build another boat, this process is automatic in the lofting process and if the lines are for a museum study it is not as important (in my opinion) as the interest my be in the deviation or the "errors"
    Last edited by Canoeyawl; 07-15-2015 at 07:48 AM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Norwich,United Kingdom
    Posts
    5,781

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Keep in mind the reality that the two sides are unlikely to be exact mirror images too.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,933

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Keep in mind the reality that the two sides are unlikely to be exact mirror images too.
    Not a problem. After measuring the half breadths of both sides at the deck, you will only measure one side anyway.

    P.S. The stretch of the string is not the issue, it is the weight of the stuff hanging in a centenary due to gravity. You need light weight rather than strong.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Freeland, WA
    Posts
    26,820

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Tangentially, saw a small vid once of Halsey Herreshoff showing a very nifty mechanism that Captain Nat used to take lines off half models. A beautiful piece of precision machinery.
    Gerard>
    ​Freeland, WA

    Resistance is NOT futile.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,067

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    SS wire...

    Edit; Even doing this the "old fashion" way with string and sticks it is likely you will pick up some of the original builders errors or modifications. And even if the build was perfect (very few yards achieve this) vessels change shape while they are being built, while they are being repaired and just while they are floating and left alone. Witness the hogging seen on unladen vessels. After you have the offsets the thing will be redrawn or lofted which should show these errors, which can then be corrected or not. Perhaps you are only looking for errors, but it is unlikely you would want to recreate a vessel that is hogged or crooked, for whatever reason.
    if the lines are being used to build another boat, this process is automatic in the lofting process and if the lines are for a museum study it is not as important (in my opinion) as the interest my be in the deviation or the "errors"
    Spot on.

    My earlier remark "62 foot straight edge could be problematic?" was tongue in cheek Nick, actually we used piano wire ( as indicated by Canoeyawl) even that sags though.

    For long lengths we would use either split sights or pinhole if the height and centre were required.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,067

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    Spot on.

    My earlier remark "62 foot straight edge could be problematic?" was tongue in cheek Nick, actually we used piano wire ( as indicated by Canoeyawl) even that sags though.

    For long lengths we would use either split sights or pinhole if the height and centre were required.
    Editing difficult. That of course was before theodolites and lasers were introduced, although we still reverted back to the old methods in certain instances. they are of course more convenient to ?? Do-it-yourselfers?? or limited means. :-)

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    11,906

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    I once rebuilt a boat that had been built from a half model that was not available for measuring. Since it was a famous 28' racer cruiser, Common Sense #5, "Red Witch" a boat that has a very unusual underbody and a lot of tumblehome above the waterline,
    I chose to make a set of very accurate line take offs. This was prior to laser tools and so there was not other way to use a mechanical method for take off of the lines. I set up the boat plumb and level and proceeded to make a set of rails, that were screwed down, along side close to the hull that were made of 2x4s set square to the centerline of the hull using a tape, transit and pumb bobs from the stem and stern that belonged to a friend. Once this was done, a wooden tower was made that would be slid along the rails which were waxed with parafynn. The tower had blocking at each chosen water line that allowed a level wooden pointer to be slid into contact with the hull both at pre-determined stations and waterlines. This pointer arm had a level on top and a tape on its side to show the measurements of the sections as accuratly as possible. It was a simple matter to take off the lines of the boat once the set up was made. All in all it took about a week to do the job. All important data was noted in a book and then drawn on drafting velum as a set of lines to the out side of planking. While some corrections were needed, all in all, we have a set of lines that are accurate to one sixteenth of an inch. Since I had no outside help other than my friends, the only cost was for beer and scrap lumber.
    Jay

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,067

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    No disrespect intended but I notice Posters often refer tolines as “string” I know I am being pedantic but I confess it irritates me. I somehowdemeans from the essential part the “string” plays in the tradesman’s toolkit.There are of course different gauges of chalk lines a Bricklayer’s line is muchheavier than a Plater’s for instance.
    Just read the linkand to the uninitiated this will sound farcical.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/education/hist/employment/ship/story01.shtml
    So there you have it someone who had his head up his anusand probably avoided responsibility like the plague.
    Now then we have say a Plater and his Helper the 1500 plateis on the trestles the Plater has put marks at the ends of the plate, theyapply the chalk line to the marks, it doesn’t really matter who “strikes” theline one would think? Wrong.
    Firstly the two marks must be markedcorrectly (quite a sum riding on that, then there is the reputation ofthe Plater) So we have established who’s head is on the block should thing goawry. Most places where this type ofwork is carried out has a breeze passing through it and this can in turn cancause the line to curve, which is not desirable (imagine when burned two curvededges coming together for welding) the tradesman whether he be Shipwright/Plater is trained and through experience can “throw” the line to counteract thesideways effect of the wind. As any practical person knows anything over 3metres in the horizontal position is subject to “throw” accidentally and someof these plates were 10 times that.
    Applying chalk lines inthe vertical plane is a skill only achieved with practice as the deviation isalways present, as is the wind factor onsay paint lines on the shell of the vessel with the addition of a curvedsurface. “Throwing the line” becomes an art form.

    P.S. The stretch of the string is not the issue, it is theweight of the stuff hanging in a centenary due togravity. You need light weight rather than strong.


    Nick does that mean sags?
    J




  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,067

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Sorry editing isn't functioning for me. :-(

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,933

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post

    Nick does that mean sags?
    J


    Yes, catenary is the precise mathematical curve that defines the shape of the sag. It is important when calculating the behaviour of an anchor cable and when designing suspension bridges.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    21,666

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    I have had the best results using wire, and have always set-up a permanent steel wire on a building jig. If for no other reason than it is durable.
    There can be an issue with the attachments, wire can introduce a large force, enough to bend or move an anchor point.

    edit; here's an online catenary calculator!
    http://www.spaceagecontrol.com/calccabl.htm

    The tensile strength of a steel wire can be high, and stretched tight enough to significantly reduce catenary. It is always there of course, but at some point it becomes almost impractical to consider. (It seems to be practical enough to use for linear accelerators)
    http://www.slac.stanford.edu/pubs/sl...-pub-11465.pdf

    "Non-coated high carbon steel wire of high tensile strength....Tensile strength: 380,000 PSI (26720kg/sq cm)."
    Last edited by Canoeyawl; 07-17-2015 at 10:39 AM.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,067

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Yes, catenary is the precise mathematical curve that defines the shape of the sag. It is important when calculating the behaviour of an anchor cable and when designing suspension bridges.
    Ah, so now we have "catenary" as opposed to "centenary" Nick.

    Definition. "A curve formed by a wire, rope, or chain hanging freely from two points that are not in the same vertical line:"

    Jeez! don't you just wish you hadn't bothered sometimes?

    Yep! that was what I meant by "piano wire Canoeyawl. :-)

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,933

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    Ah, so now we have "catenary" as opposed to "centenary" Nick.

    Definition. "A curve formed by a wire, rope, or chain hanging freely from two points that are not in the same vertical line:"

    Jeez! don't you just wish you hadn't bothered sometimes?

    Yep! that was what I meant by "piano wire Canoeyawl. :-)
    Well spotted. Isn't that nice Mr Gates predictive spelling wonderful?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,067

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Is it me, or is that definition I quoted misleading?

    I'm wondering if that should read "not in the same horizontal plane as each other".

    No?
    Last edited by Chippie; 07-24-2015 at 03:07 AM.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,933

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    Is it me, or is that definition I quoted misleading?

    I'm wondering if that should read "not in the same horizontal plane as each other".

    No?
    No, that was correct. If they are in the same vertical line you get a straight vertical line.
    A centenary will form between two points separated horizontally. An anchor cable forms a centenary between a point on the sea bed and another down tide on the bow of the floating boat. Bring the boat to the anchor so that the cable is straight up and down, and it is no longer a centenary but a straight vertical line.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,067

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    No, that was correct. If they are in the same vertical line you get a straight vertical line.
    A centenary will form between two points separated horizontally. An anchor cable forms a centenary between a point on the sea bed and another down tide on the bow of the floating boat. Bring the boat to the anchor so that the cable is straight up and down, and it is no longer a centenary but a straight vertical line.
    Nick I cut @ pasted that quote.

    Coming back to my puzzlement, You say "A centenary will form between two points separated horizontally"

    I am saying "
    I'm wondering if that should read "not in the same horizontal plane as each other".

    Are we not in agreement (I'm getting too old for this methinks )

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,067

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    So the term "catenary" which I was unfamiliar with is the resultant curve from two points separate from the vertical and will change shape if altered in the horizontal?

    Help!

    I understand that, it was the definition I am confused on.
    Last edited by Chippie; 07-24-2015 at 04:51 AM.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,933

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Just so.

    If you have a length of light chain or a piece of very limber line you can play with the curve by moving the ends about. By putting one end on a table and moving the other about you can model the behaviour of an anchor cable, which is illuminating.

    Gaudi used catenarys to model the design of the arches in his churches. A catenary is an arch in pure tension. Turn the curve upside down and it becomes an arch in pure compression.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,067

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    So am I right in assuming that by not adding the word "horizontal" to the definition it was incomplete?


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch#/...f_Kairouan.jpg

    Yes there was a documentary on TV several years ago about the Ancients. This photograph and article shows how they could elaborate the fundamental law to achieve more complex shapes, these of course would be carried through to boat/ship construction.
    Last edited by Chippie; 07-24-2015 at 07:12 AM.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    41,933

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    Definition. "A curve formed by a wire, rope, or chain hanging freely from two points that are not in the same vertical line:"
    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    Chippie "So the term "catenary" which I was unfamiliar, is the resultant curve from two points separate from the vertical and will change shape if altered in the horizontal?"

    So am I right in assuming that by not adding the word "horizontal" to the definition it was incomplete?
    Not really, if they are not in the same vertical line then there must be a horizontal component, so there was no need to say so.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Casa_Mila_interior_arches.jpg these are centenary arches.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Madison, WI, USA
    Posts
    26

    Default Re: How to take Take Hull Lines off an existing boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Not a problem. After measuring the half breadths of both sides at the deck, you will only measure one side anyway.

    P.S. The stretch of the string is not the issue, it is the weight of the stuff hanging in a centenary due to gravity. You need light weight rather than strong.
    Here come the grammar police! Centenary is a 100 year anniversary of a significant event (like perhaps getting out on the water). The word you are searching for is Catenary. It is the curve you get when you suspend a infinitely flexible uniformly weighted cord between two points under the pull of gravity.

    Sorry I'm a natural born nitpicker, an Engineer and the son of a school teacher.

    Peace!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •