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Thread: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Jamesh: I hadn't gotten the impression the build is that involved. In fact I think building an I14 lapstrake would be more involved. Maybe not if strip planked. I for sure don't think it would be an involved build compared to a Coquina or a rack of eye Chesapeake Oyster Drudge. I want to see what the boat looks like moving. I do agree AWOL has an awful lot to recommend it. It looks similar to Wabi and the i550, but appears to be a bit smaller than the i550--which would benefit me. I posted an additional thread asking for videos--seems like non-existent. BTW, I reference the Oyster Drudge because to my surprise (and I am extremely glad I did it, for the learning experience) one of the things that really added time to the Oyster Drudge build was the myriad choices I faced at every juncture. I found myself dithering over a one inch placement variation on a thwart! So I think AWOL will be the usual sheet plywood build. If it is cold molded, I would strip plank it instead, and then lay glass. I am not out to race...just have fun on the build and have a new boat to play with.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Just in comparison with the i550 and wabi where you get a "boat" quicker but the the finishing takes longer than a ply on frame boat.
    Have you considered sweat pea by JW
    planing but bigger than AWOL.
    I guess it depends if your really a builder or sailor?!

    James

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    I don't know how large and fit the proposed crew of the International 14 would be but you should keep in mind that in pre-trapeze 14's the crew had to be a bit of a gorilla.The performance will only be properly realised by somebody large enough to get their weight well out from the side and the genoas in use at the time had a very long foot as the measured sail area was computed from the J measurement rather the actual size.

    Similarly the Uffa-King or other National 12's won't plane with very much weight on board-think 300 lbs maximum crew weight.There is a good list of 12's here http://www.national12.org/class/index.shtml .

    If you look in Building/Repair you can watch the progress of Julio Arana with his Merlin-Rocket,which has a similar hull shape to an i550 and takes up a lot less space http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...=Merlin-Rocket .

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    thank you john meachen, that is useful info to me. Watts talks about light air responsiveness on his website. Is that hype? Jamesh, not really sure what you mean about having to decide between sailor or builder. I am sure the remark is made with good intentions, but my issue with AWOL is I want to see it move. It looks like only one has been built, however, the design parameters seem to be dead on what I am after. So I am hesitant, but interested.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Have we covered John Welsford's Saturday/Sunday Night Specoial here yet?

    http://jwboatdesigns.blogspot.co.uk/...-so-later.html

    could represent the most fun for the least cost materials and time spent building.

    reckon she will be quite and will plane as well.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by davebrown View Post
    Watts talks about light air responsiveness on his website. Is that hype?

    Definitely not hype.The thing that gives a 14 good performance in light air is the considerable sail area which then makes the boat quite demanding when the wind pipes up.I have sailed a couple of 14's from the pre-trapeze era that had been equipped with trapezes and I would have found it very hard work to sail them in their original configuration in a planing breeze.

    So that we may better understand your requirements,could you please describe typical conditions in your sailing area and advise us of the planing boats you have previously sailed?

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    John, that is the problem. About 50 minutes from my house, give or take a little depending on traffic on a Sunday, is SF Bay. Calm in the morning, teens by lunch, tapering off to gusts in the low twenties on a typical nice day. A more challenging day might be steady twenties with gusts in the low thirties. I don't usually go out if the internet is projecting gusts into the thirties, only because I don't have to. Once in a while I have gotten caught out in something like that unexpectedly, and improperly rigged. Monterey is three hours away, and I go there about every other month, and conditions are pretty similar. I have gotten caught out in Monterey in very bad wind, at least twice. I don't know numbers. maybe high twenties with gusts in mid thirties? But once with a spritsail that could not be brailed underway, and another time in my Coquina with a 103 sq. ft. lug that had come from the sailmaker without reefs, which my wife and I later put in, so on that occasion it was bad news. Seven minutes from my house is a very large lake with maybe four miles of fetch and a wonderful, consistent reach up and back, nearly every day due to geographical condition. Depending on time of year, 8- 15 knots, sometimes low twenties, but seldom gusty. Little lake near my office with a consistent ten knot breeze, changing directions and gusty. Trailer sail down south a couple of times a year, San Diego, San Luis Obispo, or north up to Oregon lakes. Therefore, wide variety of conditions but I don't go out above 30 knots on purpose. I have never sailed a planing boat; I have built ten boats and usually sail a Coquina or a Skerry. I have a crab skiff about ready to be finished, and another started. My interest in planing hulls stems from the fact that I can build one, and they are exciting in principal. I have no interest in racing at all. I love to go fast. So you can see that the I14 would fit a lot of the sailing that I do, and the i550 would fit the Bay and the big lake near my house....as would AWOL. Wabi seems a great middle ground choice, at 16.5ish, or the Core Sound 17/18. Because I have a little guy that will eventually be going with me, I don't want a boat as complex in the cockpit as a typical racing hull would be. My five year old boy routinely goes out with me in the Bay in our Coquina, once in a while I will take him out in the Skerry if fairly low key. I also like the Friendship Catboat mentioned above, said to plane under the right conditions...Whatever I build I haveno qualms altering the rig and fooling around with it--this is for fun, and the learning experience. If I don't like the boat I build I will sell it for about cost of materials. I was thinking about strip planking an i14 and rigging either with a standing lug and iib (ease of reefing) or a sliding gunter and jib, which I use now and reefs easily as well. Or perhaps the i550 with a big high aspect lug like Roxanne and maybe a smallish mizzen, or a rig like the Core Sound series.
    Last edited by davebrown; 07-05-2015 at 02:20 AM.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    I really don't want to pour cold water on your plans as I have enjoyed sailing planing dinghies for more than forty years and hope to for a bit longer,since it is a lot of fun.I would urge you to get along to a sailing club that has a few and see if you can get a ride in one before committing to a build.The lake near your home would appear to be nicely suited to an I14,but you definitely wouldn't want to be out in one when the wind reaches force five.The measured sail area was 125 sq.ft and the actual area a good bit more and it needs to be kept in mind that by the action of planing,the apparent wind increases with the boat speed.A session of capsize recovery practice might also be useful as there is almost always a risk of going over if the wind is sufficient to allow planing.

    The design selection process can be almost as absorbing as building and sailing.Enjoy choosing and try for a test sail if you can.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    John: You're not pouring cold water on my plans. I know what I want to do and how I am going to do it and I will be successful at both the build and using the boat. I have every expectation that I will have a learning curve to deal with. All part of the fun. I like the i14 for another reason: I have plenty of lumber laying around for a strip build on that. I am promised a letter from Giles on Wabi, and sort of like the lumber laying around, I have a couple hundred Euros sitting in a jar on a shelf that aren't being used at the moment and I don't feel like losing a third of it exchanging it. I reviewed another build last night that is supposed to plane: the Malu, which is a stretched Windmill. Looks like a very easy build, slightly rounded bottom and skiff construction. I also reviewed an article about the Geary 18. Looks like the Geary would be good for the lakes, but probably not the Bay.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Plans appear to be still available for the Geary 18.

    http://www.geary18.org/December2008.pdf
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    I sent a final email attempt at plans on Wabi:

    "Désolé de vous déranger ..Je lui ai répondu à votre aimable lettre au sujet des plans pour Wabi ( voir ci-dessous ) , mais n'a pas reçu de réponse . Je l'espère vous aviez un merveilleux voyage voile ! En supposant que vous aimez bateaux comme je le fais , je joins une photo de ma dernière build ( no. 9 ) . Mille mercis à adance , Dave"
    Last edited by davebrown; 07-05-2015 at 11:47 PM.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    If an I-14 would suit your needs, why not a Windmill? They plane easily without a spinnaker.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    John, I thought long and hard about both a Windmill and a Goat Island Skiff. I sent Michael Jones an email about a stretched Windmill (Malu: http://www.jonesboatworks.com/malu/) and expect to hear from him about whether the boat will plane. I would probably be interested in a Malu over a Windmill, just for the extra bit of room. I like the GIS, especially because I am used to lugsails and that is set up for a 103 sq. ft. sail, which I already have (coincidentally! I have a 103 sq. ft. sail that someone had on craigslist they bought for a Bolger Teal, and never used). I really wouldn't prefer a flatbottomed skiff, even though GISs will really go (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy4_OTodVTg). If I were to build a planing skiff, I would take a stab at building one without plans ( I do not include Windmill or Malu in this remark). AS YOU ARE AWARE, it can be done. I also recognize that putting together the right rig on a planing hull designed from scratch is beyond the scope of my experience at this moment in time. I think it is interesting to note that Malu, by appearance, looks something like a rounded, but flattened, Lightning--harkening back to that incredibly informative thread about planing that got me interested in this build (you might remember that I responded with surprise to learn that a Lightning does not, technically, plane). One thing that I think is very informative about the GIS: a lug sail, with its old fashioned appearance, need not be anything less than a vintage Porsche.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Anyone know much about these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqAbPXC89L0
    I really like the rigs--upon first glance they look like sliding gunters but upon closer inspection I think they are a standing lug with a very high aspect peak. Fantastic! ON another video that is about twice as long, they appear to be planing hulls. If the same boat, plans are form Clark Craft on our side of the pond.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/Highl...ighlight01.htm
    Have you looked at the work of keith Callahan's highlight?
    Strip planked
    proven performance,
    and you can pay in pounds sterling!

    Cheers james

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Dave, people who have not sailed Lightnings say they don't plane. People who have, say they do. I've never had one planing, but at the very end of this vid, it appears one is.

    https://youtu.be/Dod5s-yv0es

    The Windmill, by comparison, planes easily and often.

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    I would say that is a Solent lug rig.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy4_OTodVTg

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Jamesh: post no. 26 is from the Blue Lightning designer and website. Note that the Blue Lightning is the same dimension as the i550 and that shop is doing a fiberglass version of the i550. I agree it is a very good looking boat. I like the strip molding on that boat. It APPEARS to be a strip version of the 550.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Here is an interesting albeit brief treatise on the Solent Lug, although I am not sure if I agree with the statements about gunter vs. Marconi. I have a gunter and I love the sail, but I use a solid mast instead of the two piece gaff style. Which means it is really not a gunter.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    I am a fairly new sailor and I own a 1956 Lightning. I believe I have had my boat planing before . . . we were on a big reach and a gust of 15 plus hit us just right - I could feel the boat raise up a few inches and just take off - it was like we were skimming across the surface instead of plowing through it . . . it probably only lasted about 30 seconds but it was a great feeling I would love to duplicate again . . .

    The bottom arcs on my antique Lightning are quite rounded (8 ft arc radius) compared to the flat arcs in the aft sections of a modern Lightning (15 ft arc radius). I would think it would be easier to get a modern flatter arc Lightning to plane.

    Mike

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Seibert View Post
    I am a fairly new sailor and I own a 1956 Lightning. I believe I have had my boat planing before . . . we were on a big reach and a gust of 15 plus hit us just right - I could feel the boat raise up a few inches and just take off - it was like we were skimming across the surface instead of plowing through it . . . it probably only lasted about 30 seconds but it was a great feeling I would love to duplicate again . . .

    The bottom arcs on my antique Lightning are quite rounded (8 ft arc radius) compared to the flat arcs in the aft sections of a modern Lightning (15 ft arc radius). I would think it would be easier to get a modern flatter arc Lightning to plane.

    Mike
    Did the helm go light?

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    I was actually crewing at the time, but, yes, I believe my friend said the helm was very light. If I remember it right, the balance of the boat seemed perfect and it didn't seem like the wind was heeling the boat very much at all.

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Seibert View Post
    I was actually crewing at the time, but, yes, I believe my friend said the helm was very light. If I remember it right, the balance of the boat seemed perfect and it didn't seem like the wind was heeling the boat very much at all.
    Yep, sounds like you were planing. It's fairly rare for Lightnings, and I think Dave wants a boat that planes all the time, like a Windmill.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    We have a report from Malu that the designer is going to alter the rig for planing ability. He says it does plane now, but not as easily as it could. He is thinking of putting a large lug on it. It is presently a spritsail.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    The builder of AWOL has posted on John Welsford's new Facebook page. Picture of AWOL and words about her planing speeds. Really need to have a look, join Facebook if not already a member. Fastest he has seen on GPS is 16mph, pretty good for a fast safe boat.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/4405...7168045462084/

    Brian

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Thanks! I have been continuing to read and research. I had a second awful miss with a Windmill. $650, an hour from my house, including registered trailer and sails. Gone in 60 seconds. I prefer to build, but for that price I can't buy the lumber. I also found some closeout spruce (most likely Canadian Black--not Sitka, that's for sure) almost clear, $4 a board for 1x6x12 ft. It was an overage on a subdivision project. I bought around 20 0f them. If I need to build a new mast or spars, I now have some very cheap spruce set aside for that. I have been watching Periwinkle videos on Youtube. They appear to move. Continuing to have fun. I find this to be interesting: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/bca/brio555/index.htm Of course that led to a bit of reading on a Flying Dutchman....
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    You know, the class provides a lot of support for people building new Windmills. Might be worth a look.

    http://windmillclass.com/

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Come to the dark side.
    Forget planning.
    Skinny hulled boats go faster.
    http://www.smalltridesign.com/W17/gr...-Trimaran.html

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    I think we have a winner...
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  30. #100
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Dave,

    If you do go with the W17, please post a blog/ pictures.
    I tried to go see one locally, and found the builder had dropped out of sight, moved, something.

    Pictures/ discussion would be the next best thing.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Saturday night special.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Looks like the plans for SNS have arrived at just the right time for you. I think, re-reading your opening post, you have the boat to meet your specification. Not easy to combine well the need to single hand, take a few friends and planing speeds.

    She looks like she will be lovely to single hand, just the right size, big enough yet light enough to still pull out of the water. Big enough to take others, simple enough to control with inexperienced people on board. Two big tanks fore and aft giving safety for those on board.

    Wabi was always the style you were after



    And SNS is very much of the same style, quick light raid boat.




    Really looking forward to seeing your build and out sailing.

    Brian

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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull


  34. #104
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    Quote Originally Posted by JonasK View Post
    The run is nice and straight at the keel, if it is as straight at the 1/4 beam buttock it should be OK.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  35. #105
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    Default Re: Getting ready to buy plans for Planing Hull

    dave, did you build?

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