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Thread: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    I went ahead of you in the wrong direction. Now I want to down size.

    There's a lot out there in the 19 foot range. I would think a c/b would take care of hitting things underwater. You'll want to pull behind a small car I'm guessing and be able to stand the mast up your self also. A small cutty and good drainage so it has the option of being left on a mooring.

    My my father in law has a Boston whaler harpoon. Neat boat. He's 77 and handles it well.

    A few years ago the wife and I started our sailboat search. I wanted small. We ended up with an oday 26 to get her "on board". It's a nice enough boat, but needs a crane to set up the mast and a big truck to pull it. I can't wait for the day when I can go back to my original plan. Can I use old age as an excuse? I'm 52.
    Last edited by CK 17; 05-07-2015 at 05:39 PM.
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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Z. View Post
    Cannot reasonably trailer? The empty hull is light, and ballast is broken into smaller parts. And if you take an hour to rig it, you've probably stopped along the way and had a few beers.


    Was beaching or planing in the original post? I must have missed that. I do remember "My "Musts" include submerged-obstacle surviveability and one of the strong "Wants" is transportability.", and considering it's use in the paralympics as well as the requirement to float while swamped, it seems to meet the "must".

    "Not optimal", perhaps. "Fail" is a little harsh.
    The first item on the original poster's "want list" was car-topable by one person, the second item was transportable up/down sandy beach by one person using beach wheels.

    I don't see how a ballasted keel boat would come close to meeting either criteria.

    As for trailering an I-2.4, I've been sailing a Thistle for 10 years or so, on a trailer with a very long tongue. Boat, with foils up, draws 8-9", but even then I have to wrestle the boat on and off the trailer at some ramps. I assume the I-2.4 draws more than two feet, and weighs more than a ton, so you'd need a 20' tongue extension or a crane to launch at my local lake.

    Thistle takes me an hour to rig and launch, and another hour at the other end, and that is with only three stays, and a deck stepped mast.

    Allan
    Last edited by Binnacle Bat; 05-07-2015 at 09:23 PM.
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    That's what I get for not opening the link. Sounds like a sailing kayak will do. I think clc has a kit to convert. Even then, a kayak is not the easiest thing to get on and off the roof of a car. I suppose a kayak trailer can be pushed on the beach by hand. . .
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  4. #39
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Seems to me like the Trika 540 is ideal if you are considering a sailing kayak.
    http://dixdesign.com/Trika_540.htm

    Pretty much a cross between a sailing kayak and a canoe.
    Cartoppable per the ad pictures.
    Might be a little light on the sail area, but that could be fixed.
    Claimed to be useable as a kayak.




    If you think about the CLC adapting rig, they often are said to not tack well.
    Bigger leeboard in the right place and a larger rudder would fix that.
    A better sail would help also.
    Personally I would want bigger amas but that would drive loads higher.

  5. #40
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    I'm with the sailing tri-kayak thinking too. Be aware that in choppy water you can be in for a very wet ride, however.
    For cartopping, they make pricey buy effective lift systems now. But there are also many DIY solutions to make loading easy. That part shouldn't be a concern.
    -Dave

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by sailoar View Post
    That's one happy tiller.
    It puts a smile on someone's face .
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  7. #42
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    I'm with the sailing tri-kayak thinking too. Be aware that in choppy water you can be in for a very wet ride, however.
    For cartopping, they make pricey buy effective lift systems now. But there are also many DIY solutions to make loading easy. That part shouldn't be a concern.
    Also, the car-toppable thing was a "Want", not a "Must".

    Right now I am in trimaran/tri-kayak thinking mode with Hobie's Adventure Island (pre-2015) and Weta the contenders.

    I should be able to try a Weta within a week or two. The Weta's not light - and cartopping is out of the question - but when Weta owners talk about zig-zagging downwind riding the chop, that gets my attention, being my preferred method of windsurfing.

    OTOH, it would require a modification to the daggerboard....maybe a kick-back or something like the old Windsurfer "High-Wind" dag where it's shaped to ride up on something rather than impact it.

    The Hobie has been dropping off my list because it looks like such a pig to paddle.... but then getting back on in the light of reality and this being an old person's boat.... and then there is the Mirage drive.
    Last edited by PeteCress; 05-09-2015 at 10:16 AM.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Don't discount the AI because it "looks like a pig to paddle." It's not! The Mirage Drive pushes it effortlessly through the water.

    If cartopping is only a want, take a serious look at the new model. I'd say the the original is a kayak that's been adapted to use a sailing rig. The new model is a sailing tri that can be stripped down to be used as a kayak. A number of improvements make the new model a much improved version of the original.

    Cartopping can be made much easier with a mechanical assist.

    http://www.thule.com/en-us/us/produc...-898-_-1685448
    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by SchoonerRat View Post
    ...take a serious look at the new model....A number of improvements...
    Now I see that, among them, is a larger sail (6m vs 5.3...).

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Larger sail, longer reshaped hulls, improved Mirage Drive, GREATLY improved seat, lots of little details that just work better. Only one failing that we've found so far - the old main hull had a molded in handle on the rails that made it easier to roll it over. It's absent on the new model. And besides the new seat getting your butt out of the water, the new boat sails much drier and faster. Going to weather is greatly improved. The old boat often needed to be pedaled throught the eye of the wind.
    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by SchoonerRat View Post
    ... the old main hull had a molded in handle on the rails that made it easier to roll it over.
    Do you think that beach storage upside-down would be practical?

    I'm thinking about getting it turned over just with the amas folded in.....

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    You're not gonna want to try to turn it over with the amas attached, but assembly and dis-assembly takes just minutes with no tools. If you sail in salt water, you're going to need some fresh water to wash down at least the hardware after sailing. We use a jerry can and a small battery operated pump. Everything but the hulls comes home for a good washdown and added security. The boat is kept on a rack about 2 feet above the sand and is covered with a cover that's made for the AI. A small 4 wheel cart helps get the parts from the pickup to the boat and back again.

    Monday should be the next sailing day. I'll try to get some pics of the new boat and the setup process. I have some pics of the old boat, but I didn't really concentrate showing it getting put it together.
    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by SchoonerRat View Post
    Cartopping can be made much easier with a mechanical assist.

    http://www.thule.com/en-us/us/produc...-898-_-1685448
    I have a set of Hullavators arriving June 1st. Immediate use is to ease loading my surfski - which goes up on the racks easily in the morning, but (as of late...) not so easily after 6-7 miles of interval training.... Also, for windsurfers on high-wind days.
    Last edited by PeteCress; 08-21-2015 at 09:03 PM.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by SchoonerRat View Post
    Don't discount the AI because it "looks like a pig to paddle." It's not! The Mirage Drive pushes it effortlessly through the water.

    If cartopping is only a want, take a serious look at the new model. I'd say the the original is a kayak that's been adapted to use a sailing rig. The new model is a sailing tri that can be stripped down to be used as a kayak. A number of improvements make the new model a much improved version of the original.

    Cartopping can be made much easier with a mechanical assist.

    http://www.thule.com/en-us/us/produc...-898-_-1685448
    Well, we are going to find out - hopefully next weekend - because I've got a 2015 AI in transit with delivery claimed for 8/25.....

    I am not really expecting the Hullavators to do the job for this thing - the 88# test load I dummied up a couple weeks ago was quite a challenge - instead I am thinking a side-loader or t-loader if cartopping becomes a regular event. But if the Hullavators work... well, that's pure gravy....

    I'm not religiously-opposed to a trailer either...it's just that I'm so cheap and the freeway tolls are so high.... OTOH, I don't want my survivors to have too much fun....

    Also, I find driving effort goes up when I am towing, although that may be mitigated by experience.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteCress View Post
    I am still sniffing around: looking for something that will let me eke out a few more years on the water once windsurfing and surf-ski paddling become impractical.

    I am guessing/hoping that a few WoodenBoat contributors have been here before me.

    My "Musts" include submerged-obstacle surviveability and one of the strong "Wants" is transportability.

    Current requirements (with apologies to Messrs Kepner and Tregoe): http://tinyurl.com/kt46oj8
    (They call this a decision-making tool, but I would call it more of a communication device: you throw all your requirements, weights, and numbers up there and now everything is up front for people to see, dispute, and enhance).


    WETA = A small trimaran from New Zealand as per http://www.wetamarine.com/the-boat/

    P5 = A bi-directional, stich-and-glue proa as per http://tinyurl.com/mp6ab22 and http://tinyurl.com/oshujnd

    2014 or Earlier AI = Hobie Adventure Island canoe-trimaran before they made it heavier: http://www.hobiecat.com/mirage/mirage-adventure-island/

    CanoeTri = Canoe-trimaran optimized for moderate air as per http://canoetri.com/canoetri.html



    The current version notwithstanding, I do not consider WETA to be out of the running because of the possibility of fitting a rotating daggerboard - like the Hobie Adventure Island uses.

    Computed scores, of course, grow out of Weights assigned to "Wants" and the Values (now well the prospective solution fulfills the "Want") assigned.

    Can anybody add some more "Musts" or "Wants"?

    Suggestions for changing the Weights and/or Values of "Wants"?

    Advice from those who have gone ahead of me?
    You want continuing physical and mental challenge on the water - does that include salt water? Cruising?
    Sail and oar. Seriously.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    "Old" is a very nebulous term.

    John Welsford. Who will be 70 far too soon, and is not planning on slowing down until they put me in a box.
    Good on ya! My 84 year old father went up to the WoodenBoat School after some prodding from me and took Rollin Thurlow's cedar and canvas canoe building class and had a ball. He's looking forward to another class.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  17. #52
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    A friend of mine, someone whom a year ago you'd have thought would be unable to climb three stairs, and you'd have been close to right, has bought a SCAMP. She is 71, wants to learn to sail, has changed the way she eats, is exersizing heaps, and has a knee job scheduled. She'll make it, she may need some help but she'll make it.
    The difference was that she decided that by hell she was going to do it.

    Jim D, I don't know your physical circumstances, but I do hope that you find something that will suit.

    John Welsford


    Quote Originally Posted by Hantu Laut View Post
    And of course you should check out the great and varied small boat designs of John Welsford himself, many of which have large user communities.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    International 2.4
    I sailed these in Auckland- they're great fun, fast and responsive. A mate was with Sailability NZ and their fleet was set up with hand controls for disabled sailors, some of whom had developed into crack match racers. They certainly whipped me.

    The hull is a scaled-down 12-meter design, with a ballast keel— very stable. The seating position puts most of your body weight below the waterline. I was happy in one for a couple hours before the single seating position and lack of movement got to me. They can be trailered, but the relatively deep keel makes a developed ramp or a lift necessary. While sailing alone would be fun, having a small fleet in the area, with chances to race, would be a better situation.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?


  20. #55
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by sailnstink View Post
    Not thinking old will keep you young. We stop being able to move, because we stopped moving. Recovering strength and mobility is possible. Stay (or get)skinny and never stop moving.
    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    This is utter rubbish and exactly the kind of advice you don't need.
    I'm 68, 5'-9", 162 pounds, building another boat, I walk the dog three miles a day, never ever miss because the dog expects it, I dig ditches when water leaks necessitate it, I crawl under cars, this weekend a friend called with an emergency roofing problem and we took care of some rotting structure and installed a new roof deck (heavy 3/4 inch ply). But I stopped crewing (sailing) last year, just too much pain afterwards. I can tell you this: no matter who you are, the pain will stop you moving eventually, unless you die before you feel it. Anyone who says never stop moving simply hasn't experienced the pain that is possible and quite common, and makes movement intolerable... I keep moving while I can, but I KNOW that human bodies wear out, develop defects, and there is no limit to the pain possible.

    JimD is absolutely correct.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Cut the alcohol, and carbs, lift heavy(slow getting started) and your joints will work as long as you need them.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by SchoonerRat View Post
    The boat is kept on a rack about 2 feet above the sand and is covered with a cover that's made for the AI. A small 4 wheel cart helps get the parts from the pickup to the boat and back again.

    Monday should be the next sailing day. I'll try to get some pics of the new boat and the setup process. I have some pics of the old boat, but I didn't really concentrate showing it getting put it together.
    I would be interested in seeing the above-sand storage setup.

    The 2015 AI sb arriving tomorrow.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    62 next month....I figure to keep moving till it hurts. So far I am not much diminished from being 50. I sail ..... single handed mainly. I went kayaking yesterday with my Daughter and her Husband for 6 hours, got a sore butt. These last few months I have put up about 1000 bales of hay, cleaned out the barn ~100 tons of sh1t bound up with rotting hay. This last with the aid of a tractor, but still a big investment in personal physical work, and the job is not quite finished. When we start getting some rain, I'll cut some wood for the winter, ( it is too dry right now to go into the woods right now).
    I do get this idea of an older guys boat....I have spent time thinking on it, because that day will come. One of the questions for me is what will be my use at that time. I often cruise in the winter....sort of adventure cruising, more wind, more weather, not quite so many demands at home. Will I want to cruise like that? The boat for that might be something like a Paradox. Or will I mainly want to do less strenuous boating.
    Almost certainly I am expecting to moor the boat in the back yard and trailer-sail, so it will be easy to rig, and relatively low tech. If it is much work, either in a physical way or time, I just won't get out as often. Scamp or one of the other rowing-sailors intrigue me. I am more interested in sailing than rowing, though I like rowing so less than stellar rowing performance is ok, And perhaps a motor will be part of the package.
    This down sizing may be a two or more stage process.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteCress View Post
    I would be interested in seeing the above-sand storage setup.
    The only pics I have are of the old AI. The main hull is under the cover. The uncovered hull is an ocean going kayak that my buddy's wife forced the sale of before allowing purchase of the new boat. The amas are now kept on the rack along with the main hull instead of being transported in the pickup.



    The top story of the rack may look like it's collapsing. That's only cuz it did. I underestimated forces involved in an old man getting the boat up there alone. The rack has since been rebuilt.

    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

  25. #60

    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by sailnstink View Post
    Cut the alcohol, and carbs, lift heavy(slow getting started) and your joints will work as long as you need them.
    You really need to stop saying these things. Either you're blessed with good genes or you're not old enough. There are many of us that exercise and live/ eat well and still feel the need to be safer and and a bit more stable when on the foredeck. I bicycle now for exercise as its low impact. I've done 2 century rides this summer and ride about 150 miles weekly. I do weights a few times a week. I have severe spinal stenosis which puts a real dent in my mobility and it is genetic. Carbs and alcohol have nothing to do with it. I'm guessing that most of us are trying to balance ageing, lifestyle, genetics, and being active. Quit judging those you don't even know. FWIW, I'm finding this thread informative and pertinant.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by SchoonerRat View Post
    The only pics I have are of the old AI. The main hull is under the cover. The uncovered hull is an ocean going kayak that my buddy's wife forced the sale of before allowing purchase of the new boat. The amas are now kept on the rack along with the main hull instead of being transported in the pickup.

    Thanks - that is instructive in that it answered my question of whether the gunwales take support at only two points without deforming or not.

    Looks like they will - and in the heat of Florida (?) no less.

    That is how I have stored a series of fiberglass kayaks and surf skis, but polyethelene is new to me.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteCress View Post
    Thanks - that is instructive in that it answered my question of whether the gunwales take support at only two points without deforming or not.

    Looks like they will - and in the heat of Florida (?) no less.

    That is how I have stored a series of fiberglass kayaks and surf skis, but polyethelene is new to me.
    Here in SoCal we approach the heat of Florida. 100°+ days are rare, but we do get some. I've never seen a poly boat deform in storage like this. The problem never even crossed my mind when I built the rack. Polyethylene is tough stuff; heavy but tough. The only damage we get is from dragging the hull over some sharp rocks that are exposed at LOW tide. Nothing more than minor cosmetics.

    BTW, congrats on the purchase. I predict that loads of fun will ensue. Much frustration can be avoided if you have a Hobie dealer to help you with the first setup. Mind your fingers when installing the seat! Our dealer learned that lesson on my buddy's boat. He's been a friend for over 4 decades so the strongest of his language was directed at Hobie, not at us. Also, when installing the akas, be certain that they are fully inserted and locked. Try to remove them without pressing the release button to test.
    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by SchoonerRat View Post
    Much frustration can be avoided if you have a Hobie dealer to help you with the first setup.
    That's not going to happen, but I am pretty sure there are vids out there that take one through setup. I am expecting hours of amusement.... -)

    More amusement when I get down to mods..... at least weeks, if not months...

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteCress View Post
    That's not going to happen, but I am pretty sure there are vids out there that take one through setup. I am expecting hours of amusement.... -)

    More amusement when I get down to mods..... at least weeks, if not months...
    YouTube is loaded with AI vids. They'll help a lot but nothing will replace the immediate feedback of Q and A with somebody that knows. You'll probably need to view several vids to get all the answers you want.

    WARNING! Don't get so caught up with watching that you don't get out sailing.
    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by sailnstink View Post
    Cut the alcohol, and carbs, lift heavy(slow getting started) and your joints will work as long as you need them.
    Right.

    That may be true for some people.

    Then the Rheumatoid Arthritis, or any number of other maladies hits, and you need help to go pee.

    I hope it works out for you.
    Rattling the teacups.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by SchoonerRat View Post
    ... Also, when installing the akas, be certain that they are fully inserted and locked. Try to remove them without pressing the release button to test.
    I'm building a pre-launch checklist.

    So Far:

    1. After inserting each aka, yank *hard* on it to
      confirm that the locking clips are engaged.

    2. After inserting the Mirage Drive, ensure that
      the leash is attached to the boat.

    3. Check port ama drain plug

    4. Check starboard ama drain plug

    5. Check vaka drain plug

    6. Verify fore hatch closed

    7. Verify aft hatch closed
    Last edited by PeteCress; 09-04-2015 at 01:43 PM.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    A catboat with an inboard --- A Marshall 22 would work for me. It is part of my bucket list to do the intercostal loop on one.

    I still think this is the boat of choice for practical use and storage. Really any more than this is wishful thinking for those who aren't going to cruise the world. A 22 foot side tie means that she is ready in a moment without tidal issues, complex rigging a lower fees. For less than 500 dollars you can have a new main. Most come with a trailer. a decent SUV can pull it. a cockpit to sit enough friends once dockside.
    There is nothing you can do with an ape/human hybrid. They'll rip your arm off.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteCress View Post
    I'm building a pre-launch checklist.

    So Far:

    1. After inserting each aka, yank *hard* on it to
      confirm that the locking clips are engaged.

    2. After inserting the Mirage Drive, ensure that
      the leash is attached to the boat.

    3. Check port ama drain plug

    4. Check starboard ama drain plug

    5. Check vaka drain plug

    6. Verify fore hatch closed

    7. Verify aft hatch closed
    Regarding #2 - The leash I referred to is on the seat. If the hull is upside down, the seat will just fall out. It doesn't float and it's several hundred dollars to replace. This is less of a problem if you only operate in trimaran mode. The Mirage Drive gets locked solidly in place. I'm pretty sure that there's no factory supplied leash for it.

    Have you taken delivery yet? When do you get it wet?

    Bon Voyage!
    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    I am absolutely new to sailing, and boat building, but I can feel myself catching the "bug". The war dept. and I visited Toledo, Or. last month during the wooden boat show and we saw some impressive stuff. We were camping near by, and returned a few days after the show/fair was over. We went back down to the dock as some of the vessels were still there. Then we saw a small horde of children... sailing.. little boats.. from somewhere,back to this dock. They were followed and herded by and instructor in a separate boat shouting an occasional instruction/reprimand. When they reached the dock, one by one, they cleaned, broke down and stored their vessels by themselves. I am impressed!! I've owned power boats before, in a time of my life when faster seemed more important, but I'm becoming more and more interested in the finer things.
    We spent a day on the NPS sailing vessel "Alma" and assisted in hoisting some sails (Pretty touristy, kinda like the Kodak Show on Hawaii) but started/assisted in the infection. When we returned home, we both began sailing lessons and completed our first "class" last Saturday.
    Can someone recommend a book, that will help us understand basic nomenclature, principals, and different designs, sail configurations etc. Not too complex please just yet, but a touch more technical and adult than "Sailing for Dummies"? A good starting point. In American English. Reasonably priced. I do intend to build a small vessel someday soon, but I do not intend (as of yet) to design anything.

    We are in our early 60's, retired and intend to stay active.
    My apologies if this is hi-jacking this thread, but it kinda-sorta seems to fit, and while not in the doldrums, has had no additions for a month.

    Thx Scotty
    Last edited by Chipsahoy; 10-12-2015 at 10:34 PM. Reason: spelling

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    4,492

    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Any number....

    Peter Heaton, 'Sailing'
    E F Knight, 'Sailing', 'Small Boat Sailing'
    Maurice Griffiths, 'Sailing'
    Tyrell Lewis, 'Teach Yourself Sailing'
    Percy Woodcock, 'Sailing for the Novice'
    and no doubt a dozen others.

    Then later you can graduate to books on seamanship.

    Have fun.

    Mike
    Visit us to see how we help people complete classic boats authentically.

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