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Thread: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

  1. #1
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    Default Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    I am still sniffing around: looking for something that will let me eke out a few more years on the water once windsurfing and surf-ski paddling become impractical.

    I am guessing/hoping that a few WoodenBoat contributors have been here before me.

    My "Musts" include submerged-obstacle surviveability and one of the strong "Wants" is transportability.

    Current requirements (with apologies to Messrs Kepner and Tregoe): http://tinyurl.com/kt46oj8
    (They call this a decision-making tool, but I would call it more of a communication device: you throw all your requirements, weights, and numbers up there and now everything is up front for people to see, dispute, and enhance).


    WETA = A small trimaran from New Zealand as per http://www.wetamarine.com/the-boat/

    P5 = A bi-directional, stich-and-glue proa as per http://tinyurl.com/mp6ab22 and http://tinyurl.com/oshujnd

    2014 or Earlier AI = Hobie Adventure Island canoe-trimaran before they made it heavier: http://www.hobiecat.com/mirage/mirage-adventure-island/

    CanoeTri = Canoe-trimaran optimized for moderate air as per http://canoetri.com/canoetri.html



    The current version notwithstanding, I do not consider WETA to be out of the running because of the possibility of fitting a rotating daggerboard - like the Hobie Adventure Island uses.

    Computed scores, of course, grow out of Weights assigned to "Wants" and the Values (now well the prospective solution fulfills the "Want") assigned.

    Can anybody add some more "Musts" or "Wants"?

    Suggestions for changing the Weights and/or Values of "Wants"?

    Advice from those who have gone ahead of me?
    Last edited by PeteCress; 05-03-2015 at 03:11 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    I'm 72. I paddle sea kayak, surf, and sail a couple of very tender one person small craft. But it depends on agility and general health I guess. I have been contemplating a Hartley variant but not as an "old persons sailing vehicle' just a more social one.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Trika 540.
    I wish it had more sail area and ama size, but it might fit you perfectly.
    Looks like in a big puff it would bury the ama like the Canoe Tri. (funny, I looked for imformation on those boats 10-15 years ago and there it is all laid out)

    I don't know why you want to crash into submerged obstacles

  4. #4

    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I'm 72. I paddle sea kayak, surf, and sail a couple of very tender one person small craft. But it depends on agility and general health I guess. I have been contemplating a Hartley variant but not as an "old persons sailing vehicle' just a more social one.
    Good on you dude, that's impressive.
    Wooden boats are like shingles, recurring, and often painful.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    "Old" is a very nebulous term. I was lucky enough to have designed an entry in the 1999 Mini Transat and the entrants sponsor flew me to the finish to "pit crew" the skipper and boat.
    These are really extreme mini ocean racers, and remember that at the finish line in the Caribbean the boats had been single handed from France.
    Two of the guys in the top 20 ( out of about 65) were over 70 years old, and were both planning to do the next event two years later.

    John Welsford. Who will be 70 far too soon, and is not planning on slowing down until they put me in a box.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    The older one gets, the harder it is for one person to cartop, especially a boat that can carry two, and is fun to sail as well as paddle. All my current boats are trailer boats, although two of them could be easily be cartopped by two people, I find the need to go by myself drives me to trailering.

    I also find that an important factor is setup and breakdown time, so I find myself drawn towards monohulls with unstayed rigs. The fewer tiddly bits the better. Something like a Goat Island Skiff pushes my buttons, but you would need to switch to a swing centerboard do meet your grounding at speed criteria.

    In our society, one only is allowed to have one woman at a time, sometimes the best compromise is several boats.

    Allan
    (Thistle, Sunfish, and MacGregor sailing canoe)
    And the Binnacle-bats wore water-proof hats
    As they danced in the sounding sea.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Perhaps this http://gentrycustomboats.com/Splinter.html doesn't carry a passenger but seems pretty close on most points. Wins on weight.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    It sounds rather as if you want a Peter Duck. This was the boat that Arthur Ransome had Jack Giles design for him as a "sort of a marine bath chair" for his old age --

    Mike
    Visit us to see how we help people complete classic boats authentically.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Binnacle Bat View Post
    In our society, one only is allowed to have one woman at a time, sometimes the best compromise is several boats.
    I follow that in terms of windsurfers and bicycles - one secret being to keep the pile of stuff big enough so that nobody notices additions.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    If I may state the obvious, anecdotal stories from septuagenarians whose bodies have held up remarkably well won't help you. As long as you can keep doing what you're doing you don't need a new boat. And when it is time you will need something that accomodates a physically deteriorated body. That means things like loss of strength, flexibility, agility, reflexes, and so on. So look for a comfortable, easily handled boat that reflects the realities of the aging process. In other words you need the foresight to build a boat that you don't yet need. Not a lot of us have that foresight. I'd bet there are quite a few 'old persons' who have gone ahead and built the boat they can no longer use.
    Last edited by JimD; 05-04-2015 at 09:58 AM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wooden Boat Fittings View Post
    It sounds rather as if you want a Peter Duck. This was the boat that Arthur Ransome had Jack Giles design for him as a "sort of a marine bath chair" for his old age --
    Maybe if I had a mooring....

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    If I may state the obvious, anecdotal stories from septuagenarians whose bodies have held up remarkably well won't help you. As long as you can keep doing what you're doing you don't need a new boat. And when it is time you will need something that accomodates a physically deteriorated body. That means things like loss of strength, flexibility, agility, reflexes, and so on. So look for a comfortable, easily handled boat that reflects the realities of the aging process. In other words you need the foresight to build a boat that you don't yet need.
    That's where I am now: fully able to paddle my surf ski and, hopefully (the season has not started yet) windsurf.... and I could accidentally pull my bike out into oncoming traffic tomorrow and make this whole exercise moot.

    But I think you are right on the money by identifying the issue of predicting what will work after the decline - as opposed to here-and-now.

    The proa is currently losing ground in that respect. It wins hands-down when one emphasises transportability - both on the road and up/down the beach; recovery from capsize; and a sort of fuzzy "fun factor" in tuning/setting up.

    It even seems to score well in that the operator should not have to move around very much - the operative word being "should".... The problem, though, is lack of availability of a test boat to confirm that the seating positions/operator movement are not unrealistic.

    OTOH, WETA is available for testing and Hobie's Adventure Island should be if I look enough.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteCress View Post
    That's where I am now: fully able to paddle my surf ski and, hopefully (the season has not started yet) windsurf.... and I could accidentally pull my bike out into oncoming traffic tomorrow and make this whole exercise moot.

    But I think you are right on the money by identifying the issue of predicting what will work after the decline - as opposed to here-and-now.

    The proa is currently losing ground in that respect. It wins hands-down when one emphasises transportability - both on the road and up/down the beach; recovery from capsize; and a sort of fuzzy "fun factor" in tuning/setting up.

    It even seems to score well in that the operator should not have to move around very much - the operative word being "should".... The problem, though, is lack of availability of a test boat to confirm that the seating positions/operator movement are not unrealistic.

    OTOH, WETA is available for testing and Hobie's Adventure Island should be if I look enough.
    I'm only 60 and can't do shyte any more. So here's what its like for me, in no particular order. Regarding capsize recovery, its a non issue. I now presume I will not be able to recover from capsize unless its a really small boat. Do I want that small a boat at this stage? No, emphatically so. The sorts of boats I could still right are the sorts of boats that require too much of the physical abilities I no longer have to sail the boat in the first place. If my boat goes over most likely its going to be righted by someone else's efforts, not mine. So I'd look for a design that is very difficult to capsize in the first place and if it does, how am i going to survive a capsize without righting the boat? Transportability: Transport on a trailer. Launch and retrieve at a ramp. Tuning and set up: That's just more time and work using up precious energy. The less the better. High performance anything is probably not a good idea. Getting old means backing off on the throttle and slowing down. If you are still thinking in terms of lifting a boat on and off a cartop, dragging it up and down a beach, singlehandedly righting from capsize, fine tuning a high performance rig, then you are not thinking old. Old means the cold water feels colder. The strain on the muscles means pain in the muscles. The thought "I could get injured or wind up in real trouble doing this and its not worth the risk anymore" starts to occupy your mind more and more, detracting from the enjoyment. Welcome to old.
    Last edited by JimD; 05-04-2015 at 11:57 AM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Not thinking old will keep you young. We stop being able to move, because we stopped moving. Recovering strength and mobility is possible. Stay (or get)skinny and never stop moving.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Not thinking old will keep you young. We stop being able to move, because we stopped moving. Recovering strength and mobility is possible. Stay (or get)skinny and never stop moving.
    This is utter rubbish and exactly the kind of advice you don't need.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Choose your own fate my friend. I choose to eat clean, move more, boat more. And excepting accidental death of course, l will boat longer and better then my peers who choose otherwise.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by sailnstink View Post
    Not thinking old will keep you young. We stop being able to move, because we stopped moving. Recovering strength and mobility is possible. Stay (or get)skinny and never stop moving.
    Somebody once said "Pick an age you like and stick with it."

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Binnacle Bat View Post
    The older one gets, the harder it is for one person to cartop, especially a boat that can carry two, and is fun to sail as well as paddle. All my current boats are trailer boats, although two of them could be easily be cartopped by two people, I find the need to go by myself drives me to trailering.

    I also find that an important factor is setup and breakdown time, so I find myself drawn towards monohulls with unstayed rigs. The fewer tiddly bits the better. Something like a Goat Island Skiff pushes my buttons, but you would need to switch to a swing centerboard do meet your grounding at speed criteria.

    In our society, one only is allowed to have one woman at a time, sometimes the best compromise is several boats.

    Allan
    (Thistle, Sunfish, and MacGregor sailing canoe)
    It seems that you and I have similar fleets, (Australian Sailfish, MacGregor canoe, Sea kayak) and I do agree about the cartopping thing. Having just bought a new vehicle I'm thinking of building a side loader.
    And JimD, 'septuagenarian' sounds so much older than 72 feels for me, but that's my parents legacy to me I guess.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    You going to choose your DNA, too? Not much else I'll say in the face of this kind of stupidity. Enjoy your eternal youth.
    Last edited by JimD; 05-04-2015 at 04:01 PM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Exercise changes your DNA. The fountain of youth is free and available to everyone.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    International 2.4
    Someday, I'm going to settle down and be a grumpy old man.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    And of course you should check out the great and varied small boat designs of John Welsford himself, many of which have large user communities.

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    "Old" is a very nebulous term. I was lucky enough to have designed an entry in the 1999 Mini Transat and the entrants sponsor flew me to the finish to "pit crew" the skipper and boat.
    These are really extreme mini ocean racers, and remember that at the finish line in the Caribbean the boats had been single handed from France.
    Two of the guys in the top 20 ( out of about 65) were over 70 years old, and were both planning to do the next event two years later.

    John Welsford. Who will be 70 far too soon, and is not planning on slowing down until they put me in a box.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Have you considered something like a Bolger Old Shoe that has a deep cockpit and high sides for a backrest? Has to be trailer-launched and doesn't sail off a beach well, but is stable and comfy to operate from what I've heard.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wooden Boat Fittings View Post

    That's one happy tiller.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    A couple of weeks ago I managed to capsize a Sunfish (bight of mainsheet fouled on lifejacket in mid tack, and I wasn't able to clear it in time. Not my boat, not my lifejacket.

    At 66 years old, 225 lbs, and not very good shape, I was able to right her and reboard without difficulty. Admittedly a Sunfish is designed for that stuff, and but not real comfortable for a geezer to sail in all day. One the other hand the lounge chair type boats (H12.5 and variants) aren't trailerable, never mind car top-able.

    For the moment, my senior boat will be a hot molded I-14 hull (c. 1950) with appropriate flotation and seats, and a Goat Island Skiff balanced lug rig. The hull is sort of a baby Thistle, and the balanced lug will provide the simplicity of a sunfish rig, but easily reefed. The Thistle is a blast on the water, and I can single hand her in any reasonable conditions, but it's an hour at the ramp to rig and launch, and another hour at the other end. I'm guessing the 14 will row much easier that the Thistle, and be almost as much fun to sail. Small enough for a geezer to haul above high tide with rollers on the Main Island Trail.

    Allan
    And the Binnacle-bats wore water-proof hats
    As they danced in the sounding sea.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    I had friends who raced Stars well into their 80's, and pretty much everyone I know kept going into their 70's, which kind of bothers me since my body has really begun breaking down at the age of 57.

    My friend Louie Nady has to be in his late 70's now and Lou still races his Finn. I guess it's absolutely and individualistic sort of thing, but right now my mind is on a glassfibre cat boat with comfortable seats that's easy to launch and retrieve and get the mast up on. I have some racing boats and I always will, but I really, really just want that one nice boat that is easy to rig and sail as well as being fun once you are out there.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Probably not fast enough for Pete, but I love the heck out of my SCAMP. It's small enough to right in the chance of a capsize, very easily trailored or pulled off a sand bar or wrestled out of mud (like last weekend at Cedar Key), nice large dry cockpit, growing community of SCAMPs being built, one-design racing and informal racing with no rules also available. It can be sailed, rowed or motored. You can even camp/cruise on it if you like. I built mine in case I get old but getting her to go faster than she should is a whole lot of unexpected fun. John Welsford was gracious enough to let me try out my experimental curvy mast on his hull design.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    International 2.4
    + 1
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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Z. View Post
    + 1
    Fail

    You cannot car-top it, you cannot reasonably trailer it, you cannot bring a friend. Stepping the mast and rigging will take an hour at least. You can't row or paddle it effectively in a calm, and it will never plane on a reach no matter how hard it blows. You can't beach it for a picnic.

    If you have a mooring, an H 12 1/2 will be more comfortable, especially if you have company.

    If you are going to trailer or car top, there are thousand boats better.

    Allan
    And the Binnacle-bats wore water-proof hats
    As they danced in the sounding sea.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    A catboat with an inboard --- A Marshall 22 would work for me. It is part of my bucket list to do the intercostal loop on one.

    Be wary of your critics, at peace with your decisions, and work hard to be a better man.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Binnacle Bat View Post
    Fail

    You cannot car-top it, you cannot reasonably trailer it, you cannot bring a friend. Stepping the mast and rigging will take an hour at least. You can't row or paddle it effectively in a calm, and it will never plane on a reach no matter how hard it blows. You can't beach it for a picnic.

    If you have a mooring, an H 12 1/2 will be more comfortable, especially if you have company.

    If you are going to trailer or car top, there are thousand boats better.

    Allan
    Cannot reasonably trailer? The empty hull is light, and ballast is broken into smaller parts. And if you take an hour to rig it, you've probably stopped along the way and had a few beers.


    Was beaching or planing in the original post? I must have missed that. I do remember "My "Musts" include submerged-obstacle surviveability and one of the strong "Wants" is transportability.", and considering it's use in the paralympics as well as the requirement to float while swamped, it seems to meet the "must".

    "Not optimal", perhaps. "Fail" is a little harsh.
    Heute ist so ein schöne Tag...

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    What an interesting thread. I am 73 and was most emphatically told last week by a woman of similar age who I did not know, that the correct terminology these days is to use "older" and never "old" in our conversations. I immediately shifted gears and went from being an old guy to simply being an older guy. Seemed to fit well enough and I liked the concept.

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    A catboat with an inboard --- A Marshall 22 would work for me. It is part of my bucket list to do the intercostal loop on one.

    Maybe we could do it as a race?

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by farwesthoops View Post
    What an interesting thread. I am 73 and was most emphatically told last week by a woman of similar age who I did not know, that the correct terminology these days is to use "older" and never "old" in our conversations. I immediately shifted gears and went from being an old guy to simply being an older guy. Seemed to fit well enough and I liked the concept.
    Then I am changing over from "Old" to "Older Than Dirt"....

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    Default Re: Old-Person's Sailing Vehicle?

    Old persons sailing vehicle? WTF? Old is meaningless. Physical capacity varies a lot. Vehicle? Seriously. Restate your question

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