Ballpark cost estimate for 12.5 haven?

[cturner]

Hi folks:

I have just purchased the book " Building the 12.5 Haven" published by Wooden boat. Now that the juices are flowing and the motivation is there, there is only one thing that stops me from proceeding.... I am trying to get a feel for how much it would cost (US Dollars) to build this boat? Assume a midrange model if you care to estimate. Thanks for all you help!

Chris Turner
St. Maragrets Bay, Nova Scotia.

[JimG]

Hi Chris,

If you want to find out more about Haven 12.5 building there is a web site dedicated to it.
www.havenbuilders.com

[fergie]

Depends on how true to the original you want to get. From what I've experienced, the cost of building the actual hull isn't so bad. However, you can really start adding up the bucks with every piece of bronze, not to mention the paint, sails, trailer, etc. If you don't pour your own keel, add another grand+ for that. I think location of the builder comes into play as well. I have seen pricing for planking materials in various locales more than 3 times as much as I paid. As a guess only, keeping in mind that money is still pouring out of my wallet as we speak, 7k for lower end up to 12k for real nice and on up from there. Others who have actually finished one may be able to add more definitive advise.

[NormMessinger]

If you have to ask you can't afford it.

When I started Prairie Islander someone asked me how much it would cost to build. I could only say, a lot more than I can afford but I'm going to start and when the money runs out I'll be so far into it I wont be able to quit. That's sort of the way it worked. The money didn't actually run out because I work slow. A couple of hundred a month over four or five years worked out for me. Some months took more, some none.

Maybe you can afford it.

--Norm

[frameshop]

Chris. Go for it. The building process is long and rewarding. Go one step at a time with your supplies and work, and you will find it very rewarding. in retrospect, I would have bought the wood for the frames and done that, next the hull, next the keel (I found a lead smelter in little falls, Nj who poured my keel for $500.00, lead included). Buy all the bright finished wood at the same time so it matches!!!!!! The first 2 years I sailed mine I was using $6.00 blocks. The good ones will come. I bought a Venture trailor for $700.00 small modifications and it works great. Use the correct bronze fittings for the coamings etc when you build. I would guestimate that I have around $7,000.00 in the boat at this point. You can see a few photos at the Haven site under "Builders" roger Mullette. Good luck. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-19-2002, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: frameshop ]

[Don Maurer]

I believe Eric Dow builds and sells them for somewhere around $35,000. If you were building a one off, I'd expect to spend about as much.

[NormMessinger]

Seriously, Don? Dow can buy materials so much cheeper than an amature that it would make up for his labor costs? The commercial builder of the Farne Islander in the UK is asking nearly three times what I have in Prairie Islander. Surely there is not that much difference between the prices in the UK and the US.

--Norm

[Hugh Paterson]

You might get a fright when it came to buying your timber here Norm, suppose it depends on what you want though, African mahogany £21 metre, Brazilian mahogany £38 per metre, Teak £95.00 per metre. Sapelle £26-32 per metre. It would be interesting to compare North American costs to our lumber costs. The labour per hour varies quite a lot up and down the country, in my experience most small boatbuilders are working low on labour, to offset the high overheads in material and operating costs.

Shug.

[Buddy Sharpton]

Chris, it's fortunate you only asked how much money, not how much time you'd invest ( notice I did not say spend) building your Haven. Nobody's got a crystal ball with that kind of accuracy. But I will offer a way to guestimate your costs based on my past experiences and my current project, a similar sized Joel White design, the MarshCat.
Get some numbers from builders and very new used professional built boats. Just the boat- accuracy improves when you leave the sails and trailer, outboard and any electronics or instumentation out of the equation. Get a feel for the range. Currently I read about $24000. Forty percent should give you a cost for materials to build your boat including molds. Nothing for tools or space if you need to acquire them. That would be $9600. But you would cast the keel. Add about $500 extra for that saving of your labor if you hire it done done at the foundry from your pattern.

Trailer $1800, sails probably $1000, outboard, $800. Sailrite kits are about 25 to 30% savings from mid price lofts, but again do you enjoy sewing too? I have made several sails, up to a main for a 30 footer and would not say I have ever "bested" a pro sail, and that suspicion has haunted me about boat performance in class races of one designs. Nothing else constucted at home in variance from ideal purchased article can slow a boat more, outside a fouled bottom, and there's no excuse in that on a trailered boat. I really try to save on something else, anything else, than sails.

Or find listings for amatuer built used ones a few years or more old. That figure usually recovers the cost of materials only, nothing for labor. Thats a good guide for what you'll spend yourself repeating their effort.

Comparing the two can be a fairly good predictor of the path ahead, what your labor, your time is really costing you if you hold any thought of making a profit rather than the just have the personal reward of making the boat, your own self, to prove to you you can do it. Much cheaper ways to get to the water in a Haven. I see then advertised occasionally for $16,000 for a pro built, four year old ( or newer) boat. If you figure you're gonna take three years to build it- close to the average of what I've heard reported here= you're saving $5000 a year to build her at what savings per hour?
3000 build hours to save $15000- $5.00 an hour if you can do it.

A night or weekend job might take less time to pay back a loan, and you'd be sailing all that time.

It really comes done to where you personal satisfaction lies.

This is when the soul searching pays off- up front. It's why you see so many backyard projects sitting idle or for slae at a bargain. Being realistic about how much you enjoy the building.

If your interest is mainly about sailing, and you can buy a boat close to what you'd chose to build, go that way, and scratch the build- it- yourself itch with a dinghy firat. Then use the dinghy investment multipled by the ratio of the difference in weight between the dinghy and the dreamboat - here 1800/ 100 to get a prediction of the build time ahead. And use sailing the dinghy to remind you of what you're working toward on breaktime from the big project to keep you refreshed and motivated.

My thoughts anyway. Buddy

[Thad]

Hugh, if a "meter" is a square meter of board face an inch (or 26mm more or less) thick, then your prices are not appreciably different from what I see here.

[NormMessinger]

You probably hit the nail right on the head, Buddy. But but.... building is everything.

Hugh, what would a metre in wood be. one meter square x how thick, maybe? We measure in board feet prior to planing. A rough sawed piece 1" x 12" x 10 feet would be ten board feet but you'd take home a piece a bit under 7/8 x 11-1/2" x 10'. If memory serves that piece in Hondourus Mahagony would run close to $50 here in mid-contenent.

--Norm

[Don Maurer]

Norm,

$35,000 is probably high, but my point is that the first one costs a lot more than subsequent hulls. Since you have to build the mould and make all the patterns, then buy any additional tools you need. The list goes on and on. I'm sure that there are many places to cut costs, but they usually don't become obvious until you've gained some experience. Anyway, if I were building one, I would budget that much and hope it came in under so I had enough left over to start my next project.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Maybe I'm just cheap, but a big drop in dollars expended can be achieved through some judicious and persistent scrounging.

A lot goes to waste in this country. It is certainly possible to pay more and to obtain lesser-quality materials.

Why not avoid waste of dollars by helping to avoid waste of materials? (See the various mentions of "Wood-Mizer" for one example).

Alan

[Hugh Paterson]

Thad Norm and anyone interested, price based on a linear metre (by volume), but a lot depends on the timbers origin. A lot of the suppliers to our wood stockists still supply and price in square feet/yards. The stock holder in this country then has to sell the timber in metric sizes and for say douglas fir has a conversion formula to "alter" the price to metric which suits our European partners, (bloody bollocks).This common market is a crock of elephant droppings!!!!! Still prefer feet and inches, same goes for plans, if you look at Iain Oughtreds plans you will see him quote the metric equivilent to feet and inches, maybe be better to buy only American/Canadian designs. Buy Dutch and you get them in mm/metres. Arghhhhhhhhh. I should ask Shane what Oz designers use as a measure. The younger students in my class at college dont have a clue what an eighth of an inch looks like? Not that its too much of a problem though, the range in my year runs from 18-66 years of age, and I am middle of the road. Looking at Buddys costings has given me a good comparision, The sails and engine seem a lot cheaper than our average. The trailer is possible but I am assuming its a custom trailer to suit the boat manufactured by say the local blacksmith? (value for money). Buy an off the rack version here and it would be 2-3 times that quote. I would have to carry out a direct comparison of timber types to compare the costs involved.

Shug.

[NormMessinger]

Hugh, let's try this once more. A linear metre of wood would be what thickness and how wide? If you get one metre of Brazilian mahogany, say, for £38 per metre how wide and how thick would it be?

--Norm

[cturner]

Interesting Cost variances. I appreciate everyone's comments. Let's take this economic analysis a little further then and Let's assume we all landed on acost of say... $25,000.00. How would you break it down by activity distribution(%)?

eg. (W. A. G.'s) Wild ass guesses....
Hull construction 20%
mold construction 20%
decking 5%
painting/glassing 10%
etc..

any one care to guesstimate?

[Will]

If the mould setup is really that expensive it seems like some of the amatuers that have compleated their one boat would be willing to sell or rent their formwork and patterns .

Even with shipping added you'd come out ahead .If the builder of the forms wanted them back maybe the borrower would at least pay the return COD frieght to him up front , and maybe a small deposit .In a few years a number of these setups will be freed up and gathering dust , or ?

[ 02-23-2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Will ]

[NormMessinger]

Something was written here months or years ago about leaving out half the stations in the Haven mold. Maybe that was for strip planking. I bought the book and would like to have built one but it looked like nine tenths of the work was in the mold. (YEah yeah, I've been told a million times not to exagerate.) Turner's estimate of the same amount of effort in hull and mold seems right.

--Norm

[Art Read]

I think the main reason for such an elaborate mold setup on the Haven is just to allow bending the frames directly on the molds themselves rather than on ribbands spread across them, and to make it easier to build in the floor timbers before planking the hull. Makes sense. Once you get a "rythym" going, mold making actually goes pretty quickly. The twelve I needed for my project, plus the transom mold and the ribbands, all were up in a month or so, if I remember correctly. Obviously it would take longer, and cost more, for the Haven but then you'd be DONE with the frames and floors by the time the "set up" was done. I spent a LONG time bending in my frames over the ribbands after the fact, and shaping those floor timber bevels AFTER the hull was done was a major pain! As for expense, unless you're planning to build a bunch of boats off one mold, there's no reason not to use the cheapest "Orange" store, or even scrap lumber you can get your hands on... I doub't I had more than a couple hundred bucks in my setup. (Well, maybe a bit more with the MDF loft floor/work surface I put down and some of the "extra" hardware I used to make it "moveable". (A waste of time... Never budged it 'till "Roll-over" day...) In any case, the "set-up" was a minor consideration in terms of expense and time with my project. Same with my cradle. Pressure treated lumber and galvanized bolts, but I don't think it cost more than a couple hundred bucks. It's the tools, "boat" lumber, fasteners and bronze fittings that'll "hurt" you.... And you get "nickle and dimed" to death with all the goops, googes, compounds, abrasives and finishes you'll be using throughout the project...

[ 02-23-2002, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Dan Nielsen]

I took a look at my log book last night and can offer the following summary of the money I have spent. The project is a Haven 12-1/2 Footer and I have just turned her over. Bear in mind that I have had to make many parts twice and have often found better prices for materials AFTER I had already spent the money. On the other hand I live in North Carolina and have been able to get some wood directly from mills which did save some money. Here goes:

Wood:
White Oak: $1135
Mahagony: $256
Cedar $618
Fasteners:
Silicon Bronze $636
Jigs:
Molds (frames, keel, transom, beams) $620
Platform $106
Steamer systems $70
Cradle $179
Hoist Supports $61
Paint/Varnish/Thinner:
From Kirby and Interlux $591
Consumables:
Sandpaper,glue,epoxy,fuel,tack cloth
caulk, making tape, dust masks, etc $598
Directions:
Plans and How To Book $205
TOTAL $5075

This money was spent over a 15 month period of time. Hope that helps. I also have some big ticket items ahead such as bronze fittings, sails and a trailer......and then those things I have not even thought about.

[Art Read]

If you haven't already seen it, this link to the "Haven Builders Page" has a GREAT series of the building proccess... (Look for Dan Nielsen under the "Builders" tab)

http://www.havenbuilders.com/msie4.html

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Art Read:
I think the main reason for such an elaborate mold setup on the Haven is just to allow bending the frames directly on the molds themselves rather than on ribbands spread across them, and to make it easier to build in the floor timbers before planking the hull. Makes sense.

When you look at "The Herreshoff Way" of building the 12-1/2 and the Herreshoff Dinghy -- a station mold at every frame and each frame molded directly on the station mold -- you have to consider that these were a production boat. They built a lot of them every winter.

That is why the investment in the hull molds made sense to the Herreshoff yard. The cost of the hull molds, amortized over the number of 12-1/2's they build (several dozen every winter), is a small part of the cost of an individual boat.

It also sped production since they likely had the whole thing jigged out. They knew exactly what the bevels were for each frame. It wouldn't surprise me if they had a pattern made up for each plank ("Hey, Jack, mill me up a #3 plank, port and startboard, please. Thanks!")

The Herreshoff Way does not necessarily make sense for a one-off (as people have noted -- it's a huge investment in labor and materials). However, it does provide one enormous advantage to any builder, including Herreshoff:

Since the shape for each frame is provided by its station mold, you get very precise control of the hull shape that other methodogies for building carvel planked hulls do not.

Cheers,

N.
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