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Thread: A neat fuel efficient launch

  1. #36
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    If Greta displaces 800kg, her Slenderness ratio is 8.6.

    In 1894 Brit Charles Parsons managed to build his Turbinia (he invented the steam turbine to power it) to a Slenderness ratio of 9. She was 100ft long 9 ft beam.

    In 1902 the American Charles Moser built Arrow to a slenderness ratio better than this, he achieved 10.05. He invented new steam powered technology and he powered her to 39 knots. His Ellide design was something too.

    Parsons and Moser were at this game 120 years ago...

    From what I've read 12 is the magic number provided your not going planing and round bilged up to a Froude number of 1: that's their upper optimum boundary, above that shorter fatter chined boats have less resistance for the displacement.

    We have Turbinia in a museum. Ellide that set a world speed record and achieved the highest steam powered froude number ended up broken up and sitting at the bottom of lake George. If she's like Arrow she's double planked Mahogany 80ft x 8'4", might she still be there?
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-17-2015 at 03:22 AM.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Ooooh Turbinia
    3 turbines and 9 props and a pi**ed off Admiralty, a great tale.

    That Greta looks pretty too, not much use to me, but then neither is a racing yacht.
    If I wanted light and fast then a cat would be my choice.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Peter, small workboats in the pacific need to be able to carry a load, whether it be half a dozen 200 litre drums of fuel, as many people as you can physically cram into the hull space, or a few pigs and a load of coconuts. They need to be able to sit only half floating, dragging up and down coral beaches for extended periods of time. They need to be able to cope with big people literally jumping into them from a high dock. They need to be able to be tied up and left next to a concrete and steel dock, no fenders, with choppy water They need to be able to be repaired by someone with no real skills or tools at all.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Ah, yes , you mean the standard aluminium dinghy.

    Actually the friend would suggested this has spent a bit of time on Kirabati and seemed to think it would fit the local needs.
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  5. #40
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    A 38 footer would make a great container boat..You could ave it built in the UK.Take it round Ushant on a good forecast. Spend some time cruising that part of Brittany. Leap down to Bordeaux, go through the Midi. Spectate Les Voiles St Tropez.

    Then put it in a container, ship it to the US East coast, potter round Maine, do the intracoastal. Be a great boat in the right hands.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Ah, yes , you mean the standard aluminium dinghy.

    Actually the friend would suggested this has spent a bit of time on Kirabati and seemed to think it would fit the local needs.
    No, fibreglass is probably better. Easier to fix with no tools, no power and no training.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    A 38 footer would make a great container boat..You could ave it built in the UK.Take it round Ushant on a good forecast. Spend some time cruising that part of Brittany. Leap down to Bordeaux, go through the Midi. Spectate Les Voiles St Tropez.

    Then put it in a container, ship it to the US East coast, potter round Maine, do the intracoastal. Be a great boat in the right hands.
    On a 38ft/ 11.6m waterline, with a bwl of 5'5", her optimum displacement would be 903 kg. With a single helmsman that leaves us with a target boat weight of 818kg. A displacent : length ratio of 16.14, a speed length ratio of 3.5 and a slenderness ratio of 12. This gives us optimum efficiency at Froude number 0.8 or twice hull speed where a round bilge hull would be most efficient.

    Her maximum speed should be 21.6 knots. To get that we would need 67 shaft horsepower. A Mercury marinised VW 1.9 TDI 75hp marine diesel engine weighs 198kg, so the boat and systems and drive has to come in at 620kg. We'd have to calculate what we can get to with glued lap Occume.

    They could get Froude numbers 1.15 so we should be able to better that with engines with better power to weight and glued lap or foam carbon hulls. If we can get her to 21.7 we are at Froude 1.4. If we were antipating holding 21 knots she would have less resistance if shorter and chined, but throttled back, between 0 and 2.5 times hull speed, she'd have the most efficient hull proportions and shape attainable I think. At Froude 1 she'd be doing 15.4 knots.

    A comment earlier was that its not necessary in times of lower fuel prices. Maybe. The second aspect that is attractive is the added motion comfort the longer hull gives through inshore chop over a shorter boat of the same displacement. The videos show them flat and just slipping along level. The length gives great pitch damping I think coupled with a fine waterline entry half angle. You could still trail it behind a normal car. Also an efficient hull has greater range for the same fuel burn.

    Sail and oar glue lappers could push the envelope on here in boat design and construction.

    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-17-2015 at 10:37 AM.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Need to decide range required, fuel load, reserve fuel, water, food too.

    What would such an optimised hull look like designed to use our 30hp Honda? Two people, weekend away down Dorset Coast or pop over to France in good weather? Day out watching racing at Cowes or swimming off Studland?

    Brian

  9. #44
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    On a 38ft/ 11.6m waterline, with a bwl of 5'5", her optimum displacement would be 903 kg. With a single helmsman that leaves us with a target boat weight of 818kg. A displacent : length ratio of 16.14, a speed length ratio of 3.5 and a slenderness ratio of 12. This gives us optimum efficiency at Froude number 0.8 or twice hull speed where a round bilge hull would be most efficient.

    Her maximum speed should be 21.6 knots. To get that we would need 67 shaft horsepower. A Mercury marinised VW 1.9 TDI 75hp marine diesel engine weighs 198kg, so the boat and systems and drive has to come in at 620kg. We'd have to calculate what we can get to with glued lap Occume.



    Ed
    Ed, that seems an awfully high shaft HP, I'd envisioned doing it with something in the 30HP range.

    A 30HP Honda weighs 81KG

  10. #45
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Hwyl,

    From the graphs in Propulsion it appears for a SL ratio of 3.5 its 25 lbs boat weight per horsepower is 76 HP. If you calculate it as semi displacement boat its 67 HP from the formula given.

    I think the speed estimate i've given is conservative. At an SL ratio of 3.5 we will be able to expect hydrodynamic lift. Both a planing and semi planing vessel with an SL ratio of 3.5 needs a zero or max 2 degree quarter beam buttock angle. So our semi displacement boat has the power to weight ratio to plane and the quarter beam buttock angle. It must get lift. Provided the area is big enough and angled correctly aft we will fully liftbpossibly. Anyhow even if insufficient, some lift will reduce wetted area and wave making.

    With just adding planing aft characteristics it should fully lift. I have still to learn about planing area requirements. Its speed prediction is then 35.7 knots assuming its characterised as a high speed light runabout, by Crouch's formula.

    Greta should make predicted 11 knots with a 14, and she's going a bit faster, I think about 14, so the speed prediction is being conservative.

    If we say we only want to keep below Froude number 1, 2.5 times hull speed, we need 25hp. To not be maxed out, a 30. Speed would be 15.4 knots predicted.



    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-17-2015 at 06:09 PM.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    I cant help but think about ' Ankle Deep ' when these kind of boats are being discussed.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    I think this thread is more following the route of non-planing optimised sweet-spot designs. They did not have lightweight power last time around, so it might just be possible to re-explore this area and see what we find. Greta shows how nice it could be. Displacement speeds too slow to get anywhere, planing to harsh to enjoy getting there.
    Brian

  13. #48
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Ed, I reread the article in the magazine and your HP predictions are spot on.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    10+ knots is not an unrespectable cruise speed for anyone use to a sailboat, and i agree that often planing can be an uncomfortable experience, and require somewhat more hp. Greta was drawn for Irens own use, and i do wonder what the market would make of it; a well designed planing boat could also cruise in this range using less hp, but also have a bit extra on tap for calm conditions. Everyone will have a different idea of where the sweet spot is depending on their local conditions. Trade offs and compromises as always......one of the debates i have been having recently is if a flattish panel aft is better than a V or round configuration, given the same displacement low wetted area and dynamic lift all start to work/effect at different speeds.
    What size hull does your math compute for 20hp and/or 1,000lb disp in this semi-planing format?

  15. #50
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Iain

    With a Honda 20 and thereabouts 1000lbs displacement for semi displacement speeds where we are running optimally with a round bilge hull up to Froude 1/ two and a half times 'hull speed' its going to depend on how long and light we can make it.

    This is how the numbers work out. I must also say i'm not a NA. The speed predictions might be conservative as I said earlier due to lift at high SL ratio's and high slenderness ratios. I'm also working to the Honda being run at 85% throttle for cruise speed which gives us 17hp to determine cruise speed in knots.

    If we can build it 30'4" lwl x 4'4" bwl and 1000lbs total displacement, we have 17 shaft horsepower a DL ratio of 16, an SL ratio of 2.8 and 15.41 knots. If you said how heavy can it be and still get 10 knots its 3400 lbs/ 1.5 ton.

    2. The above 1000 lbs hull is capable of a SL ratio of 3.5. To power it to the max it needs a 47hp with 40 at 85% giving 19 knots. Its bordering planing or might with a bit of finesse aft.

    3. If it turned out overweight at 1319 lbs the SL ratio drops to 2.54 ( that's still good) DL ratio 21.16 and it will do 14 knots with 17hp.

    4. If we build it shorter to 1000lbs at 23'7" the DL ratio is 34 and SL ratio 2.75 it will do 13.4 knots.

    5. If we make it both shorter and heavier, if its 23'7" lwl x 3'4" bwl and 1319 lbs our DL ratio is 46.64, SL ratio still 2.5 and with our 17hp we will get 12.14 knots. Its still a relatively fine hull at a slenderness ratio of 8.5 for its displacement, similar to Greta.

    You can see that its a bit faster to be a bit overweight than to be short. There would also be benefits with motion comfort.

    Edward
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-19-2015 at 06:38 AM.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Ed, thanks for the interesting numbers. A back burner project is being shown some interest,with the request of planing speeds at light loads and good cruising speed when loaded, the issue here is getting performance but with a length and relatively narrow beam that some find extreme, i dont have access to my other drive but there was a company in the US making these long narrow day boats with good speeds on relatively low HP , i will try to dig it out when i get back home.
    Your first example is interesting because a project i was working on for a solo motor sailer suitable for a trip to the Azores at 10 knots cruise is reasonably close to the figures you have at 3400 lbs. I didnt quite get as far as refining different bottom shapes, as extra fuel load and immersion rates/skin friction was a little different depending on the shape. Im no NA either, but i find the whole subject interesting though some of the formulas go a little over my head; i still not have managed to digest the Savitsky paper 100%, but i get the idea, but thats a different area .

  17. #52
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Greta's full load displacement is somewhere around 1600 pounds. A displacement/length ratio of about 40. That length and light weight is where her performance comes from. This reminds me of Robb White's Rescue Minor, people seemed to think the odd bottom shape somehow imparted magical performance when actually it added drag. The real secret is ultralight weight and then the bottom shape almost does not matter. But one has to give up most comforts we expect in boats to achieve and maintain that weight target.
    That's true Tad, Robb's famous enthusiasm aside, it always seemed to me that the Atkin Seabright form added a lot of wetted surface, and therefore drag. We have all seen things written about Rescue Minor that send the "nonsense meter" right off the scale. That said, there are other advantages to that type of hull that Irens' simple canoe form cannot match.

    The tunnel Seabright form provides extreme shallow draft, and at the same time unmatched protection for the prop and rudder, allowing the pilot the confidence to take advantage of that ability. In tidal ares, it will take the hard standing up, and with no damage. That shape also provides a lot of interior volume very low (quite a trick in a light hull) in the boat. That means heavy items like the engine, tanks, batteries, etc, can be kept down low, where they need to be in a narrow hull. It also means headroom can be increased without ridiculously high topsides or cabins.

    Every boat design is really a collection of compromises, and trade-offs are the nature of the game. If enough can be gained, swapping some parasitic drag for a host of other advantages might very well make sense.

    Tom

  18. #53
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Power and weight for 10 knots also similar to Lillistones "3 brothers", quoting 13.9hp at 820kg, and 19.3knots with a 30hp.
    Last edited by skaraborgcraft; 01-19-2015 at 11:11 AM.

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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Need to decide range required, fuel load, reserve fuel, water, food too.

    What would such an optimised hull look like designed to use our 30hp Honda? Two people, weekend away down Dorset Coast or pop over to France in good weather? Day out watching racing at Cowes or swimming off Studland?

    Brian
    Lillistones 3 brothers must surely be close?

  20. #55
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Good shout. Study plans here http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au...tudy%20pdf.pdf

    " Hull shape optimised for operation in the semi-displacement speed range for reasons of economy, range, and some sort of harmony with the environment"

    Ross's numbers are well worth looking through. Would post here but Ipad simply will not function correctly when trying to copy and paste his performance numbers.

    would prefer similar performance with more classic looks.

    Brian
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-20-2015 at 10:40 AM.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Just a few thoughts this morning.....

    Outboards are less than ideal for these lightweight non-planing boats. As the boat gets smaller the engine weight becomes more significant (in overall displacement). Hanging a significant weight off the transom increases transom immersion and drag. The midships power source is really ideal, though electric may be a possibility. How many thousand times have you seen a guy plowing across the bay in a 12' tinny with 4' waterline and huge wake.

    Direct scaling smaller versions won't quite work as the wavemaking drag increases with a shorter waterline. Algorithms from Compton, Merciers, and recently DeGroot are all pretty good but they don't cover this ultra-light displacement area.

    At 30' x 5' you are getting close to the freight canoes popular in the Canadian Arctic, which use outboards and freight or people to correct trim.
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  22. #57
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    A 30ft pilot gig will do 10 knots for short duration with a fit crew, which would equal around 15hp. It was in fact the starting point for a design project. They are good load carriers, fast under sail too!

    Selway fisher has even drawn up something quite close to ideas we had been developing.



    Looks to me that it could throw a good diameter prop.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Exploring the 8hp version of something like Greta, the closest example I can find is the Lutra Laker, often mentioned on these threads.

    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/nichols/laker/


    Laker
    Little Laker
    Length
    -
    17 ft 6 in
    Length
    -
    14ft 6 in
    Beam
    -
    48 inches
    Beam
    -
    42 inches
    Draft
    -
    4 inches
    Draft
    -
    3.5 in
    Weight
    -
    150 lbs aprox
    Weight
    -
    65 lbs aprox
    Disp@4 in
    -
    770 lbs
    Disp@3.5 in
    -
    490 lbs
    Motor
    -
    10 Hp Max
    Motor
    -
    3.5 Hp Max
    Transport
    -
    light trailer
    Transport
    -
    Cartop
    Plans for both boats include four large sheets of drawings, David's Boat Building DVD.

    Designer states 18 mph with a 9.9 HP so that represents the numbers we are discussing.

    Is is she semi displacement or simply planing, or just doing what narrow hulls do, going fast.


  24. #59
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    She does have a rather flat bottom though. Guess that's what she is planing on.



    Nice bow shape.


  25. #60
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Looks like a Gheenoe on the outside and the way it planes, but the Gheenoe has a stepped hull (fore and aft). The Gheenoe hull was designed by Harley Gheen, Sr., as a solution to using inherently unstable canoes when attempting to access shallow water areas for fishing, such as lagoons, marshes, and tributary streams and rivers."
    Last edited by Paul Denison; 01-27-2015 at 01:49 PM.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch



    After Greta, Nigel has had Wilhemina built. This one is longer 31ft. Strip plank. 1200kg inc engine. 30hp diesel.



    https://www.facebook.com/YachtingBro...3689327745292/

  27. #62
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Long and narrow was Herreshoff's answer to fuel efficiency and speed. His "Steletto" was 47' in length had 6'6" of beam and a twenty Hp. tripple expansion steam engine. The result was 25 Knots and little wake. Here is a modern replica boat at speed.
    Jay
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le0nsvUQJOo
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 05-08-2018 at 12:09 PM.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    A nice bump Ed. That dodger could use some clear panels. I miss your dad.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Except for noise of the diesel these would make good crew coach/umpire/judge/VIP launches.
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  30. #65
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Long and narrow was Herreshoff's answer to fuel efficiency and speed. His "Steletto" was 47' in length had 6'6" of beam and a twenty Hp. tripple expansion steam engine. The result was 25 Knots and little wake. Here is a modern replica boat at speed.
    Jay
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le0nsvUQJOo
    That is a nice boat, but I think there is a typo in the horsepower figure. The Stiletto in the video has a 250 hp diesel. Was the steam engine on the original 1885 Stiletto built by NGH?

    http://www.totalboatshow.com/2014/08...ragansett-bay/

    http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s...postcount=1355
    http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s...postcount=1360
    http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/tb/050401.htm Displ. 31 ; 1ength: 94'; beam. 11'6"; draft: 5'; speed: 18.2 kts.; crew: 6

    There was a 20 or 25 hp version shortened to 37' that did 10kt at 1 gph https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jta31nDajE
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  31. #66
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post


    After Greta, Nigel has had Wilhemina built. This one is longer 31ft. Strip plank. 1200kg inc engine. 30hp diesel.



    https://www.facebook.com/YachtingBro...3689327745292/
    That looks like a very efficient hull.My only reservation is that the sterngear looks a bit vulnerable.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Thanks to those who made comments on Steletto and her horse power it was indeed a typo! I have run the Herreshoff launch "Vapor" at sixteen kts. This was under steam power with her Herrshoff tripple expansion engine. The "Vapor" is 28' in length. We have yet to run the new hull as the engine restoration is not finished.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 05-08-2018 at 03:49 PM.

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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Hi all, I’m new here; I’m a 43 y.o. composite fabricator from the Netherlands. I used to build boats at different wharfs here in the Netherlands starting in wood, building spars, moved into woodcore and then more and more into foamcored composites.

    Lately I helped realize “JAN”, a 14.5m version of Nigels Irens’ 12m Rangeboat design that’s currently being produced in series in Normany, France, and of which Molly Ban is the 19m version if I’m not mistaken. Jan weighs in at 6.5 T where she is originally designed to sit at DWL at 7.5 T and she burns 3.0 L/hr cruising at 9.0 kn. Not bad for a yacht that size equipped with a 75 HP Yanmar connected to a 3-blade variabele pitch prop.

    I really love Wilhelmina’s design. In fact I like her so much that I got in contact with Mr. Irens some time ago explaining that I want to build her some day. I think the concept of a light-built, long and sleek design like this is the near perfect economic means of travelling waters when you don’t mind the minimalistic design which many consider uncomfortable in a motorboat.

    I feel adding a small enclosed superstructure just large enough so that it offers seating for 3-4 and where the settee could be converted into a second double bed over the enginebox one could get alot of comfort out of the design without hurting her lines. I would build her in glass-epoxy infused over PVC foamcore aiming to build her as light as possible.

    Currently Wilhelmina is powered by a 30 HP Beta marine diesel, and at some point Nigel advised to increase HP a bit to be able to travel at a considerabele cruising speed of 11-12 kts without having to over-rev the engine, increasing engine life and further increase fuel-economics. Later on he reported that he had changed the propeller to a bit larger diameter and a little more pitch than Beta originally proposed and installed and this had a similar effect, increasing cruisingspeed with a lower-revving engine without a rise in exhaust fume-temperatures which indicate efficiŽnt fuel burn.

    Btw, I am not a yacht designer but I noticed there is a significant difference in hull-design between Greta and Wilhelmina in that Wilhelmina has a flater, less rounded aft-hull bottom section. This will probably add to the economics but will probably make for a somewhat less comfortable ride in cross-seas.

    Greta’s stern
    9A3876CC-3A09-4A6D-9E44-52F0BBF4A573.jpeg

    And Wilhelmina’s:
    1ACE3D14-4DB3-48E8-A778-160BD36EFD39.jpg

    And a picture of Jan:
    BDC14833-4B89-4D70-8C05-6683C45784F1.jpg

    Thank you for adding me, hope to learn alot, and someday build my dreamboat!

    best regards,

    Hendrik
    Last edited by Haje74; 05-10-2018 at 05:09 AM.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Jan looks fast just tied to the bank! Lovely design!
    Jay

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    Default Re: A neat fuel efficient launch

    Also looks like she is easy to roll. Good thing she is not so tall.
    Tom L

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