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Thread: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

  1. #71
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Scamp is a lot of boat in a short length and has much to recommend it. I could be tempted---JW's Houdini is another strong contender in the BBS club (Big But Short).
    However, for the Salish Sea, I'm pretty convinced that l.w.l. rules, whether Sail & Oar or Sail & Mmmmotor. I'm still looking for a long 'small' boat that suits....

  2. #72
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Long small sounds like Lillistone's or Vivier new sail and oar design Creizic.

    http://www.francois.vivier.info/albu...zic/index.html



    Brain
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-07-2015 at 01:29 PM.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Let's hope a Nanoship gets built and trialed soon. I look forward to seeing how it performs.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    I believe the smallest boats are the most difficult to design or as John Hanna put it, and I paraphrase..............."It's a bit like trying to cram two pounds of coffee into a one pound coffee can."

    I too look forward to seeing this boat built as I am curious mostly about the functionality of the cockpit.

    If one looks at the swing arc of the tiller and the amount of room left for maneuvering around it during tacks then the two pound coffee analogy comes into play. The cockpit on first blush seems roomy but I don't think so once more than one person is on board. It as we know is never a good idea to get pinned to leeward behind a tiller (big cause of capsizing) so moving around it forward will be a cramped affair unless solo sailing. Caveat I of course could be wrong as I have only seen what others have seen here. I mentioned in an earlier post about the form/function thing. Now I love pointy bowed boats above all others but when a designer is working with 12' 6" and squeezes in a pointed bow this design move causes the boat to lose volume rather dramatically. Losing volume has an impact on usable cockpit space (length more than anything). So I opted for SCAMP as my next micro cruiser in spite of her pram bow, actually have no issue with pram bows as they are a timeless design element and I have sailed a number of them from scows to Fireballs to Mirrors.

    Still hoping keyhavenpotter can illuminate his rock climbing analogy. In a sense all small boat cruisers sailors sail this way, I guess.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    John doesn't seem to design duds. I'm also looking forward to seeing one built.
    My apologies for carrying on but this design is so close to making me want to build another boat at a time when I thought my fleet was complete...
    I forgot to add earlier my next-last boat needs to be a decent crabbing platform with enough freeboard, stability and room for a couple grandkids and pots. The stretched Nanoship (yes, yes I know, longer is no longer nano...) would tick all the following boxes.
    1) Secure cockpit and self rescuing to a degree make it an ideal boat to teach the grandkids to sail.
    2) Enough stability and depth for pulling crab pots aboard.
    3) Attractive, unique, classic looks for Gramps.
    4) Enough capacity for me and; pick one or two
    _A) Granny & the Rottweiler, the three of us total 410#
    _B) Camping gear
    _C) Grandkids
    _D) Their friends
    _E) Crabbing gear
    5) The option of a kicker.
    6)
    Last but not least CLC makes it easy for a guy like me to assemble a nice boat. The easier curves of a stretched version should make building painless.
    I like the concept a lot.
    A lug main and mizzen would complete the package.
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  6. #76
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    I agree, this does not seem to be a particularly spacious boat - I think that more than 2-up it would be too much of a squeeze to be truly enjoyable. I know that there have been lots of Scamp comparisons but Nanoship seems to be a quite different proposition. For me, its virtues are solidity (through sheer mass) and the good integration of a small motor.

    For years I raced as crew on dinghies and racing yachts, which I enjoyed very much. As an antidote to pressurised fully crewed sailing I often dreamed of making more or less ambitious single-handed passages with a boat of my own. It was the ambitious nature of the cruises that always seemed to put them just out of reach (may well have been my subconscious protecting me from myself) and I never managed to get things together. Now I am a bit older and wiser I realise that the passages to far-off places are not really important - what I really want is just a way to be out on the sea, by myself, in a relatively physically and financially undemanding boat. Maybe for a day, maybe for a night (I love night sailing) but not really with much intention of actually going anywhere. As a consequence top speed is not particularly important to me but the ability to make some progress in conditions consistent with good seamanship (i.e. not trying to buck a 4 knot tide) would be nice.

    Having got all that off my chest I think Nanoship might be a good bet, I shall await developments with interest.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    I'm also curious as to what, in the case of Nanoship, 'self righting' means.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    I'm also curious as to what, in the case of Nanoship, 'self righting' means.
    It means the designer has done the righting moment math. If correct then in the case where the boat is knocked down on its side there would be sufficient water ballast down low to overcome the weight above it and the boat would auto right itself. Think inflatable clown you may have had as a child, sand in the bottom, air in the top, punch it over and it comes back up.

    In the case of small boats like this one the issue is also how much weight does the sailor have in gear above the water ballast, gear that needs to be thought through and securely lashed in place so there is no shifting. In addition with such a small boat the sailors weight and where it ends up is an issue along with (if the sailor goes over board) how does the sailor get back in given the high freeboard. Shipping water is also an issue if the boat has gone over far enough to flood the interior. I think this would be a remote possibility given this design but then too early to tell. Capsize testing would be important.
    Hope this very elementary description helps.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    I look forward to seeing the first one come together over the summer in Maine, and hopefully followed up by a comprehensive sailing and capsize testing programme.
    Clarkey comment above i think is true for many, in that time spent afloat IS the pleasure, rather than how fast we are going some place, i for one love night sailing also and especially in light wind drifting conditions....many a memorable magical night afloat.
    Hard to say, but it may be that anymore than a single crew might have to jump ship in order to maintain self righting. Having read Michalaks essay on the D,arcy design, that 15ft boat needed 200lbs of lead to self right, but also needed the crew to jump over the side to do so. The trade offs on these small boats are many, but compromise can be a big issue in different aspects to different people.
    Howards point about the tiller is valid with a crew, and transom hung rudders are always going to have an advantage in a small cockpit, but getting crew to duck underneath a hinged tiller while tacking could be an issue if you really need to apply more than 30 degrees of helm.

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    Cool Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Rice View Post
    It means the designer has done the righting moment math. If correct then in the case where the boat is knocked down on its side there would be sufficient water ballast down low to overcome the weight above it and the boat would auto right itself. Think inflatable clown you may have had as a child, sand in the bottom, air in the top, punch it over and it comes back up.

    In the case of small boats like this one the issue is also how much weight does the sailor have in gear above the water ballast, gear that needs to be thought through and securely lashed in place so there is no shifting. In addition with such a small boat the sailors weight and where it ends up is an issue along with (if the sailor goes over board) how does the sailor get back in given the high freeboard. Shipping water is also an issue if the boat has gone over far enough to flood the interior. I think this would be a remote possibility given this design but then too early to tell. Capsize testing would be important.
    Hope this very elementary description helps.
    Having fallen love with a version that does not exist I'll now look for it's warts.
    I assume the water ballast goes under the cockpit sole. I wonder if this ballast system-centerboard trunk could accommodate scuppers of some sort. On the version shown apehangers could replace the tiller. On this boat 2 masts-2 lug sails. KISS!
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  11. #81
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Dove, heaving ashore at Hastings in 1890. She's bigger but a clear lineage for NanoShip.



    Scaling the draft from the drawing I make the draft only 1'4" ish on an overall length of 12'6". So not deep actually, perfectly reasonable wading depth when launching and retrieving. When picnicking on the beach out at Hurst Castle we leave the dinghies afloat anyway with the anchor set in the grass tussocks ashore so same practice would apply for NanoShip. Have asked John Harris if we could let us know hull weight, ballast weight and displacement.

    Brian
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-08-2015 at 06:14 AM.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Autonomous, the rig arrangement on the originals, from what I've been able to understand, comes about because of the displacement requires a certain typical sail area for that displacement. Historically at this time inshore fish had been taken and they were turning to lobstering/ shellfish on the rocky Cornish and Breton coast.

    On a shorter boat, and one where you had decided to not have a boom (working people wanted a brailable sail and a clear deck) there is an optimum sheeting angle to the rear quarter close to the transom for the mainsail to sheet properly with correctly proportioned luff and foot tension. Because this isn't enough SA for the displacement, they put a relatively large productive (more than just for keeping it head to wind) mizzen on it, and to balance it forward so the center of effort stays the same, a jib on a bowsprit. The jib also helps it turn through the wind, especially when you have a deep forefoot. That forefoot also gives a deep V forward where the waves meet it.

    The three sails also generate more lifting force as they progressively bend more air around onto the sail camber. You get more force and a higher VMG.

    I've thought about a three sail rig and it's modern application: we aren't lobstering with them anymore when mulling over the 3 sail rigged Ebihen 16. If you read Webb Chiles accounts in his Lugger, he often remarks that in new and unknown harbours, he always entered under jib and jigger: he wanted full visibility. By running a boomless main you can scandaiise the main and reduce sail area at a stroke before you dock and still have some drive and boat controllability coming in in tight and busy rivers. No sail in the boat or half on a deck. There is an issue of windage aloft, but that's ok when you have teamed it with a deep forefoot to slow it being blown off and a big mizzen to to provide sufficient area to keep it head to wind.

    Coming into Keyhaven its narrow with boats and other users. You have to turn the boat into the wind then step out onto the slip way. Much like everywhere else I'm sure. I've wondered if a three sail rig would be too much, but I think close in, you'd brail the main standing lug, which would reduce speed nicely, then trickle in on jib and jigger, bring her up into the wind, heave the mizzen then roll the jib. If there's a problem of space you still have the option to make to windward with the jib pulling, you have good vis underneath you, a slowed boat amounst the moorings. Besides the jib and jigger thing in heavy weather, I think the three sail arrangement on this one is actually quite a good single hander's rig if you don't want to be always managing the full drive of a mainsail close in. I'm not experienced with a rig like Ebihen/ Nanoship but it has some upsides for singlehanding, but yes sometimes less is more.

    Howard, I think its about the attraction, challenge and then reward that comes from managed risk.

    Edward
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-08-2015 at 10:04 AM.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Rice View Post
    ...
    Hope this very elementary description helps.
    No, it didn't help, Howard. It might have helped if I were an eight year old and had no idea what righting moment is, though. But thanks for making the effort. What I had in mind was some specifics such as righting moment at various degrees of heel, and so on. You know, stability curves, that sort of thing:




    OK, perhaps that's a little unnecessary and too much to ask for in a dinghy but the point I was suggesting was that its easy to toss around terms like 'self righting' in order to market safety and throw some weight in the bottom of a boat to convince potential builders without have done much in the way of actual calculation, let alone real world testing. It seems worth discussing scenerios of what happens to a very small open heavy boat that is swamped. If the masts end up in the drink how much water will make its way over the cockpit combing? How much freeboard would it have if nearly fully filled and in need of bailing, etc? I'd guess that one would have to try very hard to capsize this boat. If it pops right back up from 110 degrees or so without flooding to the gunnel then that's about as much as one could ask from from such a little boat. But if grandpa is really go to take the grandkids out in it these might be important things to know. By comparison, Atkins 12 ft Pocahontas http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/Pocahontas.html carries 400# of ballast with a displacement of 1,400#s, but avoids mention of righting capability, being described more generally as 'a well-behaved boat -- an able, stiff, dry, weatherly, comfortable, fast, and safe open boat.'

    Pocahontas:

    Last edited by JimD; 01-08-2015 at 11:56 AM.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    JimD wrote:

    "I'm also curious as to what, in the case of Nanoship, 'self righting' means."
    "No, it didn't help, Howard. It might have helped if I were an eight year old and had no idea what righting moment is, though"

    Respectfully Jim you did ask the question like an 8 year old
    so I assumed you knew little to nothing of the term. So I answered in the most basic manner. Perhaps you could have been a little more specific or I could have been a little smarter, the latter quite doubtful.

    I noted your greater depth of understanding of the term and your points are well taken. I had the same thoughts regarding a cockpit full of water should she dip her rail. Too early to know as nothing has been published on ballast to displacement ratio, etc. A cockpit full of water in this boat would be a big issue, some would bleed out the outboard opening but that would only help to a point.

    I doubt her designer would publish "self righting" unless he had done the calculations and designed to them.

    I am generally skeptical when I see the term "Self righting." She may be although as mentioned too early to know without numbers and in field testing.

    I did the capsize testing for SCA magazine
    (SCAMP with water ballast) in a boat that is very close to self righting. She will capsize but one hand on the centerboard with almost no pressure will bring her up quickly.
    Granted these are vastly different boats perhaps only similar in approx length however both rely on water ballast and both positioned as dinghy cruisers. SCAMP is very difficult to capsize and when up after a full knock down and even a turtle she has just a niggling amount of water on the sole, she can be sailed away without bailing. She is not advertised as "self righting."

    I think of capsize and recovery this way and in so doing describe what I believe are characteristics inherent in a good small boat design.
    1. The boat should be very difficult to capsize. This has as much to do with the sailors skill as the design. Are the sheets cleated causing the rig to pin the boat on its side, etc.
    2. If capsized the boat should be able to be righted instantly..........and here i mean within seconds.
    3. The boat should be able to be re-entered with ease. I have refined the re-entry method for SCAMP and it is very easy for anyone regardless of strength to do.
    4. The boat should be able to be sailed away without bailing. This is critically important and I would say very important for a boat like the one we are discussing.

    Watch the clock in this video from the moment the boat is finally over (mast touches water) until it is back up, done manually as she is not self righting. This video was taken on a day where it was blowing 20-23 knots. We wanted higher winds but waiting didn't get us any so we tested in what we had.
    <font color="#333333">

    Every boat is a bundle of compromises. If you design for sailing performance (a highly contestable term that in my book is not speed first), safety etc in boats of about the same loa and type widely varied results will occur. I would love to see an "America's Tea Cup" regatta with boats such as the ones we are discussing sailing together and not just racing but performing across the board. I would hazard a guess that Nano would be one of the slower sailing but better in other respects.
    Last edited by Howard Rice; 01-08-2015 at 05:16 PM.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    I'm also curious as to what, in the case of Nanoship, 'self righting' means.
    I am not curious what 'self righting' means. For me -in case of the open Nanoship- it means self-righting from a complete knockdown, mast top touching the water surface. With a guy standing inside the boat, weight/feet on the lee seating/gunnel. The standard knockdown recovery test of ISO 12217.

    I am sure CLC will test the boat for this in practice, and will publish the test here and on Youtube.
    And I am quite sure the boat will pass the test, as I have not seen John Harris doing duds, yet.

    Self-righting waterballasted open dinghies? :State of the art today.

    C.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    With respect to all regarding testing and publication of tests.

    I am always puzzled that manufacturers are so less than willing to capsize test and publish results. In a sense it is understandable because so few boats are capsize averse and easy to recover. If you look for tests and published results............they are very hard if not impossible to find (Swallow Boats has published a light air capsize).

    Respectfully CLC posts marketing/sales videos on utube but I have yet to see a capsize test of any of their designs.

    I respect Small Craft Advisor for willingly capsize testing their design, it was done within months of SCAMP #1 being built. I was the person who designed the testing for them and drew up a test protocol of 14 different scenarios. In the end we did something like eight of these, (for example-single handed upwind, reaching, down wind, rig pinned fwd, pitchpole, double handed in all scenarios, full turtle singlehanded and double handed, re-entry single/double, big waves, including clapotis).

    I did the double handed with Russell Brown. All eight were successful and video recorded (we ran out of time to do all 14) and only one was published, well actually three as we started by doing static testing in a slip the day before so three were published on utube. Static testing is the important first step in any capsize test program. Kees Prins, Josh Colvin, Simeon Baldwin, Eric Wennstrom and I learned much that day, which set up the next open water day very nicely.

    Capsize testing is a brave thing for a manufacturer to do as results could kill the potential of a design. The few capsize tests that are published are done in calm conditions and therefore in a sense not real world and in my mind mind not valid. As I mentioned for the SCAMP testing I was involved in we waited for a really hairy day but nothing, finally mother nature smiled and we got lucky with moderate winds of 20-23 kts. I am planning rather extreme testing of my yet to be launched SCAMP this coming summer, fully loaded in heavy air/big waves.
    Last edited by Howard Rice; 01-08-2015 at 04:28 PM.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    I think an eight year old would probably have said something like "Daddy, what's self righting"? And even then he probably would have been able to google it by himself. The operative words of my post were 'in the case of Nanoship'. Seems obvious enough to me that I was questioning the vague claim of self righting, which by itself is not very informative.
    Last edited by JimD; 01-08-2015 at 03:33 PM.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Right on Jim, I'm with you on this question. Perhaps best to publish such a descriptor after the boat is built and tested. Might be best to describe a boat yet built as "Intended to be..........." Apologies for attempting to answer your simple question with the inflatable clown analogy, hope we can laugh off the well intentioned attempt. Dang I thought you were right off the farm and new to boats;-)
    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Well folks, the operative words of my post were 'in the case of Nanoship'. Seems obvious enough to me that I was questioning the vague claim of self righting, which by itself is not very informative.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    As has been pointed out before, the Nanoship is a modern interpretation of the beach fishing vessels on both sides of the eastern English Channel. Take the Brighton Hog Boats or Hoggies for example, like this model in the Science Museum.


    http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/onli...dex/smxg-41692

    And this one from here http://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/...p220p481p.aspx


    On the French side of the Channel, similar boats are called Flobarts, as this link shows http://www.flobart.org/modulosite2/le-flobart.htm



    I imagine that the Nanoship would do very nicely along the eastern half of the UK South Coast, as Ed (KHP) has said.

    Nick

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Rice View Post
    Right on Jim, I'm with you on this question. Perhaps best to publish such a descriptor after the boat is built and tested. Might be best to describe a boat yet built as "Intended to be..........." Apologies for attempting to answer your simple question with the inflatable clown analogy, hope we can laugh off the well intentioned attempt. Dang I thought you were right off the farm and new to boats;-)
    My wife is always telling me to stop acting like an eight year old so perhaps there's something to it. Yes, agreed, it will be nice to see this boat built and battle tested in some real world conditions as was the case with Scamp, which is an amazing design and a benchmark in the design of small able craft.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Thanks NickW for posting those terrific examples of beach fishing boats of the Eastern English Channel, especially the Flobart.

    What a interesting thread this has become. An exploration of a new ballasted open dinghy, and it's direct connection to these tough coastal fishing boats that lead such hard lives sailing off open shingle beaches.

    Ed and I have often talked about a boat for sailing off the shingle beach at Milford on Sea. Perhaps NanoShip could do it, question is could we do it? It is hard to imagine just how tough these sailors must have been, to return to a shingle beach with waves breaking on it, knowing you had to get the boat landed and up the beach without capsizing or drowning. And this was your way of life, not just occasional fair weather sailing as we do.

    Brian
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-08-2015 at 05:25 PM.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Hi Jim.............does your wife know my wife? Gotta be they have been talking.
    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    My wife is always telling me to stop acting like an eight year old so perhaps there's something to it. Yes, agreed, it will be nice to see this boat built and battle tested in some real world conditions as was the case with Scamp, which is an amazing design and a benchmark in the design of small able craft.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    For a beach landing there will need to be a very heavily constructed bottom.
    Self righting is a huge topic. Probably the ISO 12217 standard is the best and most quantifiable measure for small boats. Functionally I'd say strong recovery from a mast in the water knockdown, but of course you then have the interior of the boat full of water. ISO quantifies allowable drainage times. Will the cockpit self drain or mostly self drain, and how much is stability compromised by the free surface. We will have to wait for further info about this design before we can get any idea what measure is used....

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    John seems to be quite thorough testing his designs. His Peeler skiff was tested by the Coast Guard before release. I'm sure he will heed the suggestions offered here as to testing parameters for the Nanoship. The cartoon for the Nanoship should probably be taken with a grain of salt at this stage. The original cartoon for his Peeler suggested an awfully wide craft at the transom - almost resembling a triangle. This was commented on by a few members of the Forum. The actual Peeler build however is a very pleasing design in contrast to the cartoon. I'm glad the Nanoship and Scamp are not in a contest for best design - and that most members see the different strengths of each.
    I hope along with James M that John reconsiders using lapstitch instead of butting the panels together with epoxy and tape.

    “Only those who have the patience to do simple things perfectly will acquire the skill to do difficult things easily" Johann Von Schiller

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Here's the blog about test sinking the Peeler Skiff.

    http://www.clcboats.com/life-of-boat...d-testing.html

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Heres a slightly larger version.



    Bigger is not always better, but as you would need a trailer for both, i would need to have a very good reason to build the nanoship. Viviers Ebihen looking very much like a Flobart.

    On another note, what happened to the peeler skiff, didnt it get dropped from the line of avaliable kits/plans?

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    I'm probably just a Neanderthal, but this whole obsession with capsize testing and publishing results is all well and good for forum denizens. Probably one of the last criterion for a boat from my perspective is capsize recovery. I sailed a 30' keel boat with a non-self-bailing cockpit AND some #2500 of lead on the bottom for a number of years and actually enjoyed myself! A darling of many Forumites, the Rozinante, would plunge to the bottom if it was swamped but I don't hear folks saying "Danger" keep away from THAT boat! In most probability, there is really a concern for lawsuits that would cause a manufacturer (or kit manufacturer) to think twice about what they test and publish.

    But. Whatever......I'll let the armchair experts keep on prognosticating.

    PS: I highly respect Howard's comments and he is most definitely NOT an armchair sailor, lest anyone think I'm doing any disparaging. Rather, I'm merely weighing in with another viewpoint--Safety THIRD? I'd likely rank it far lower in my criteria for a boat--jus sayin'.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Nice find NickW, i dont recall seeing a British beach working boat with lee boards before. That very much reminds me of a Dutch/German Klogg boat.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    I think what we have here is a thread that is on fire.
    Obviously a lot of interest from some very capable sailor/builders.
    Why?
    I think this boat is hitting a chord with those that may lust after both SCAMP and Navigator.
    Water ballast, and three sails...(a winning combination).
    Done before...(no doubt)...with the amazing Swallow Boats "Bay Raider" series boats.
    The technology is sifting it's way into the homebuilders market.
    Very cool. I like this boat!

  30. #100
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    @ Dryfeet. i think you will find your average 30ft sailboat with 2500lbs of lead on the bottom of a keel is somewhat more forgiving than a water ballasted dinghy, its comparing apples to oranges as others here say. At least here in Europe, boats have to conform to certain safety standards, bouyancy in a flooded condition and able to support its full crew amount, being able to be righted from a capsize within a certain amount of time. These rules have come into force for new manufacturers of new boats, but nothing to stop you using a new boat designed in 1865 that may when swamp be unrecoverable, so the choice is there. I have more seatime in keelboats, but enough dinghy time to know a capsize is ALWAYS a possibility, unless of course if you only go sailing with your grand children in less than 10 knots of wind, then self righting and bouyancy issues may not be your highest priority. As an example, my traditional Vattern snipa will be semi submerged fully flooded, and unable to support me inside with a bucket, that may not seem a big deal until you realise the water is often only between +4 to 6 degrees, and you cannot stay in water like that for long. I never go out in anything too rough as im aware of the limits of self rescue. The Michalak family skiff on the other hand has so much built in bouyancy that it can support the crew in a fully flooded condition, but these boats are apple and orange too. Im more likely to take off in the Family Skiff for a few days as the saftey margin is far greater than the traditional boat; going hypothermic clinging to swamped boat is no fun. So capsize recovery may not be high on the list if you sail in warm shallow water in a place where you are surrounded by other boaters all the time, depends on if you are the type to call on others to get you out of trouble, i could be in the water for days around here waiting for help, so my criteria may be a little different from yours and everyone elses. Just sayin......

  31. #101
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by Autonomous View Post
    Exactly, and why I suggested earlier it needs to be stretched ~4'. On my Skerry the volume lost to the pointy stern was more than I expected.
    A 16' version of this boat would catch my undivided attention. It sure looks good with the dodger in the image posted earlier.
    I would like to see a version with just main & mizzen for simplicity.
    Just about my thoughts on the matter. My 18'6''JIM loses close to 3'6" aft with a watertight compartment and that lovely pointy stern but then she also picks up a good run and waterline length but the water ballast and self righting are powerfully attractive idea ..... 16 foot overall would be great !
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  32. #102
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    On another note, what happened to the peeler skiff, didnt it get dropped from the line of avaliable kits/plans?
    Still available http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/b...wer-skiff.html

  33. #103
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    3 pages already......certainly something about small boats that fire up some people. Could it be the maximum fun on the smallest amount of outlay that perks interest or is it minimalist adventure? Im sure even as i write there is many different answers.....

  34. #104
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Manufactured powerboats are required by the USCG to be capsize tested. I think we are talking capsize testing sailing dinghies here.
    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Here's the blog about test sinking the Peeler Skiff.

    http://www.clcboats.com/life-of-boat...d-testing.html

  35. #105
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post

    The three sails also generate more lifting force as they progressively bend more air around onto the sail camber. You get more force and a higher VMG.

    I've thought about a three sail rig and it's modern application: we aren't lobstering with them anymore when mulling over the 3 sail rigged Ebihen 16. If you read Webb Chiles accounts in his Lugger, he often remarks that in new and unknown harbours, he always entered under jib and jigger: he wanted full visibility. By running a boomless main you can scandaiise the main and reduce sail area at a stroke before you dock and still have some drive and boat controllability coming in in tight and busy rivers. No sail in the boat or half on a deck. There is an issue of windage aloft, but that's ok when you have teamed it with a deep forefoot to slow it being blown off and a big mizzen to to provide sufficient area to keep it head to wind.

    Coming into Keyhaven its narrow with boats and other users. You have to turn the boat into the wind then step out onto the slip way. Much like everywhere else I'm sure. I've wondered if a three sail rig would be too much, but I think close in, you'd brail the main standing lug, which would reduce speed nicely, then trickle in on jib and jigger, bring her up into the wind, heave the mizzen then roll the jib. If there's a problem of space you still have the option to make to windward with the jib pulling, you have good vis underneath you, a slowed boat amounst the moorings. Besides the jib and jigger thing in heavy weather, I think the three sail arrangement on this one is actually quite a good single hander's rig if you don't want to be always managing the full drive of a mainsail close in. I'm not experienced with a rig like Ebihen/ Nanoship but it has some upsides for singlehanding, but yes sometimes less is more.

    Howard, I think its about the attraction, challenge and then reward that comes from managed risk.

    Edward
    Thank you Ed, very interesting .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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