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Thread: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

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    Default CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Another new design from the prolific John Harris. A little more info here, but not much, http://www.thewoodenboatschool.com/b...titch-glue.php and a post on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/chesapeakel...52950127292398

    Imagine just how light she can be for towing and launching and just how heavy she can be when loaded with water ballast in that deep powerful hull shape. Very interesting indeed.





    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-03-2015 at 10:44 AM.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    My only caveat against boats of this size is that they are not fast at all, which means you can get caught out if conditions start to go squirrelly on you or if the tide is not your friend.
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Along with the speed issue, I think currents will be a concern too, as about half the boat in profile is under water. There is a lot of lateral resistance which also could be a concern for maneuverability.
    Steve Lewis
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Most of us, most of the time never plane in our boats. Dix Paper Jet style designs excluded, most of us simply do not plane. We reef well before that might happen.

    Our local 12' Scows are proper round bilged curvy full displacement boTs, and they sail all the better for it. I have planed in mine once. Wind well into high 20's with full sail. Ridiculous dangerous yet she planed in the river. I tacked round and sailed straight back in.

    so, if a hull is going to sail at sub planing speeds, ie controlled by her waterline length, why not give her lots loads of sail area so she always reaches that hull speed and loads of weight to hold up that sail. It's a simple mathematical equation. You maximise her speed at all times. The Heard Gaffers work exactly in the way. Very heavy, huge sail area always driving to their 28' waterline length.

    So, NanoShip has loads of sail area, loads of weight and will sail superbly at displacement speeds. As for tides, perhaps that big sail area may count for more than the hull drag? Only time or a designer with the numbers, can tell. Racing out to meet incoming ships lead to big rigs and heavy boats in the strong Cornish tides.

    Brian

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    I like it! . . for slow, safe, unconcerned sailing. After all, displacement speed of a boat with about a 10ft waterline is on the order of 4 kts max, right? So if it has enough poop to get there quickly, and stay there, then should be good enough. If that's what you're in to. Ought to be fairly safe and 'seaworthy' for a tiny, heavy boat.

    Offers pretty shockingly poor rowing performance, though, I would imagine. You're going to be stuck with that outboard as a constant companion. But I guess that's what most people do anyways, so that's only a specific gripe of mine.

    For me, I think the hull would be more interesting and attractive built glued-lap rather than three-chined, and I'm a bit curious why he didn't draw it for lapstitch instead. A boat that slow, you're going to have a lot of time to spare looking at it, so it seems like it ought to make sense to make it pretty to look at.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    A Scamp without the cabin? I like the concept though it needs to be stretched ~4'. Even 2' would help. A problem with cute is that it wears thin quickly, IMO.
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Reminds me a bit of the distinctly non-wooden 'Pabouk' range of dinghies and micro cruisers from France.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    I quite like it as well, All the forgoing comments are pretty much right. As a cruiser it must have enough performance to help the crew get out of danger. Currents, wind or lack of wind. In this patch of water currents are a big thing. There are two spots immediately close by where currents of 4 knots or more are twice daily occurrence, and with a spring tide that becomes ~8 knots. James comment concerning rowing is worth noting. Personally I don't mind sacrificing some rowing ability to the point of being a sailing boat with rowing auxiliary, but I'd hate to need a motor on something like that. John Harris has produced some pretty nice boats, he seems to get things pretty much right. I'll wait, with interest for more information and photos. I'll also note that in the same size range are the Paradox, Enigma, Scamp and a raft of others that are successful ballasted cruisers.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Lines are somewhat similar to the Giles Jolly boat. Cute looking rig, but wouldnt it be better (faster to rig/cheaper/more efficient upwind) with a single balanced lug?

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    I'd prefer it at 16 foot .
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Lines are somewhat similar to the Giles Jolly boat. Cute looking rig, but wouldnt it be better (faster to rig/cheaper/more efficient upwind) with a single balanced lug?
    Possibly, definately just the main if out in some wind. But if out with two grand-children, what fun. This could be a great grand-dad grand-kid boat.

    Brian
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-04-2015 at 04:06 AM.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Lovely! Anyway, if you build such a boat you are probably doing so with the understanding that you will pick your sailing conditions: you won't plan to sail home upwind quickly (not in a lug ketch) against a current unless you know you have no serious deadline for the cruise and can duck in somewhere for the night. Hope he brings it to the Wooden Boat Show at Mystic this year! -- Wade

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Aside from being able to store it in a space only 12'7" with an inch to spare its hard to see the point. Perhaps if you had only a very small body of water to use it on its dreadfully slow speed would mean you wouldn't have to turn around so often. The drawbacks to short boats are too numerous to justify building one unless you have no way to build and keep a longer one. I'm with Autonomous. The novelty wears off and what are you left with?
    Last edited by JimD; 01-04-2015 at 01:16 PM.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Aside from being able to store it in a space only 12'7" with an inch to spare its hard to see the point. Perhaps if you had only a very small body of water to use it on its dreadfully slow speed would mean you wouldn't have to turn around so often. The drawbacks to short boats are too numerous to justify building one unless you have no way to build and keep a longer one. I'm with Autonomous. The novelty wears off and what are you left with?
    What a dreadful attitude to 12' boats. What an insult to all of us who love and hugely enjoy our human scale sailing dinghies. The whole of the South Coast of the UK is teaming with 12' Scows. People love them and enjoy them.

    Disgraceful post.

    Brian

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    What a dreadful attitude to 12' boats. What an insult to all of us who love and hugely enjoy our human scale sailing dinghies. The whole of the South Coast of the UK is teaming with 12' Scows. People love them and enjoy them.

    Disgraceful post.

    Brian
    Brian, how many of the boats of which you speak are anything like this one, with the bottom filled with it doesn't say how many hundreds of pounds of ballast? With as much hull under the water as above? This design is nothing like the vast majority of thousands of fun little dinghies the world over. Its a novelty. A toy of a proper sized boat. I'm sure I could have great fun with it - a couple or three times. But for how many people would this be a practical solution for a dinghy? My guess is very few. A small niche market for quirky sailors looking for a quirky little boat to set themselves apart with. Nothing wrong with that but I bet not many get built.
    Last edited by JimD; 01-04-2015 at 01:57 PM.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    You insulted all 12' boats, too slow to be worth sailing.

    watch all these sailors having a dreadful time at the Scow Nationals, a full on displacement dinghy.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pZbMzwbz2_0

    In the windy conditions shown, the two handed dinghies with just the added small jib, are faster than the singlehanders. A friend can be most of us in very light conditions with her 15 stone partner crewing in very light winds. Small displacement dinghies carry weight easily. With the large sail area this CLC boat will be loads of fun. Ballet is probably less than my for ends partner weighs.

    Brian
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-04-2015 at 02:03 PM.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    You insulted all 12' boats, too slow to be worth sailing.

    watch all these sailors having a dreadful time at the Scow Nationals, a full on displacement dinghy.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pZbMzwbz2_0

    Brian
    Have fun on your soap box. Let me know when you're done being outraged. But before you burst something, I'll grant you that it would have been better and clearer if I had said 'The drawbacks of short boats like the design in question...' But since the thread is about that particular design I assumed my intention was plain enough.
    Last edited by JimD; 01-04-2015 at 02:22 PM.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy




    No comparison
    Steve Lewis
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    So, which of those two boats sails to her waterline speed first as the wind increases from 0 to 15 knots?

    which does not need to reef as wind goes from 15 to 20 knots?

    Which stands up to her sail best?

    which copes with the rough conditions best and feels far more sturdy, stable and safe for the grand-kids?

    Brian

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    It is your comment that the LR is a displacement boat I find incorrect. While the buttock line is a bit curvy, I could see plenty of semi planing when folks are hiked out somewhat forward, while the first design might consider Semi-planing as it surfs down the face of a 20 ft wave. While I might have the first out in such conditions, there is no way I would consider it in the second boat if there was any way to avoid it. As to your questions above

    1- 2nd
    2- 1st
    3- 1st
    4- 1st

    2nd will cost 3-4 times the 1st, trailer will cost 2ice as much, maintenance will be more expensive as the extra gear wears, cute value is sky high... for a while though. I like the look but the novelty is outweighed by the impracticalities it presents for most people. If you have a nice covered boat shed to tuck it into, say near one of those waterside communities in the Broads or in a very protected cove where the boat can be left afloat and protected it makes sense. Living in the middle of Corn Country, with only smaller lakes to sail on in anything under an 8 hour drive, not so much sense.
    Last edited by Lewisboater; 01-04-2015 at 02:58 PM.
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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Okay we are talking of two different missions. The OP boat is intended for camp cruising, the dinghy/ scow is intended for spirited day sailing and racing. The dinghy is not what I would choose to cruise in. The OP boat Nanocruiser might be the boat I would choose to cruise in, while I would choose the dinghy for round the buoy racing.
    The Yawl rig allows for more sail combinations as the wind rises. Not a bad thing.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    A couple of things.

    Is this design really meant to be a dinghy cruiser or a day sailor? I know the thread states "Water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy." I am just not sure this is what John was aiming at, perhaps not his intent, perhaps not his words.

    As a dinghy cruiser it would seem to fall short of the mark due to the fact that the best dinghy cruisers (also referred to as beach cruisers) are easy to beach for exploring and land camping or when safety from bad weather is needed.

    Hard to tell from the drawing but she appears to draw (board up) about 1' 6" or more. Some sailors may prefer a dinghy cruiser able to sail in very shallow water. This boat appears to draw too much for real shallow water exploration, which is one of the great joys of cruising in a dinghy.

    This one may be interesting for those who like to sail small even though it might not hit the mark as an all around dinghy cruiser due to draft and speed potential.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Imagine just how light she can be for towing and launching and just how heavy she can be when loaded with water ballast in that deep powerful hull shape. Very interesting indeed.
    Yes, I agree that this design is deep, powerful and interesting for the given length. Would this be (what I believe is referred to as)...a pocketship?
    I like it!
    The three sail option, and the protected rudder, and the outboard well.

    Just like Keyhavenpotterer (Brian) says..."if out with two grand-children, what fun. This could be a great grand-dad grand-kid boat."

    I could build this in my small heated garage too!

    Safe, robust.
    No head smasher with that loose footed main...I like that!
    Lots of options with that sail plan.
    I like it.
    But, I'm old...and, I've got grand-kids.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    I expect this boat is perfect for someone, or else it would not have been drawn up in the first place......so any critism is based purely from a personel point of view. It may not be my ideal 12ft boat,or for a beach cruiser, so i see little point in suggesting what flaws it may have (imo), as their are hundreds of other boats to choose from. I think a deep cosy cockpit like that would be an ideal place for a grandad and grand children to be pulling lots of string. It is what it is.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy



    I like it. She looks quite like a french inshore boat. A smaller Ebihen 16. Laurent GIles did a smaller Jolly Boat called a Dabchick. I've seen one on the net, but details are hard to find. I don't think it was ballasted to the extent of self righting though.

    She self rights. A 12ft open boat that self rights is remarkable. That might put her in a class of one. If she self drains, even better for a small drying mooring boat that will be reasonably stable in strong winds left there. Boats with a high AVS are good in gusty weather and for pressing on.

    The rudder pivots infront of the mizzen step, so a normal tiller.

    That low down centreboard will be working in clean water flow. It won't lose the top area efficiency due to turbulence and ventilation like a shallower boat. Same for the rudder.

    With her carry in chop due to ballast and that jib off the bowsprit, she'll turn just fine. With a bit of depth, I bet that centrecase will be close to the floor height for good walk around or sleeping in that small boat which is good.

    Being transom'd she'll have an acceptable sheeting angle for a boomless main. The reserve stability will reduce need for reefing so early and if its got side decks reduce down flooding, that will be a bonus.

    Regarding speed, I can get around the Solent fine with a 12ft boat. Anybody who needs to sail against a 4 knot current has failed in proper planning or organisation. Everyboat under sail, of any size, plans there day to go with and then back with the tide in the Solent. At 4-5 knots, I have 8-9 knots SOG, 4-5 knots at slack. On a there and back day sail, the tide's behind me all day. I guess we don't have the trouble with small island localised currents/ back eddies that might affect PNW maybe.

    Her arrangement and numbers look interesting for self righting, and launching fees have her in the lowest category. Having depth, children will be sat in it, not on it, and can eyeball the water. It will probably have a back rest and a more comfortable sitting position. A more ergonimic and safer inboard outboard.

    Heavy displacement boats like Scamp and Haven 12.5's show there is a strong market for boats like this. If a Pilgrim was too big, then this is a contender.

    True hydrodynamically for its displacement it should be longer to get it to semi plane, but that's not what its for. It would be more hydrodynamic being round bilged than chined stitch and tape but it probably woudn't get built so much or so quickly. It will also be more work to launch and retrieve being deeper, but that comes with its self righting and ballast tanks. Welsford Pilgrim is the same deal over Navigator.

    At the very least, it will be very capable for its length, and that seems to have been the way of things for the past 200 years. Optimum for a given displacement is a different journey and destination.

    Edward
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-06-2015 at 05:49 AM.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    There seems to be a small but enthusiastic following for this type of boat in France, albeit not built in wood:

    http://www.lagazelledessables.fr/index.php

    http://gliksman.perso.neuf.fr/pabouk/index.html


    Even the 8' variants are self-righting and various videos seem to show them going quite well and being fun to sail. They all take on board considerably more water ballast than the weight of the empty hull and some offer a huge variety of rig options.

    The 'Nanoship' seems to be well thought through, like most stuff from CLC and I can see the appeal.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    John is amazingly prolific. On the CLC forum he has posted saying that NanoShip is destined for production and will become part of their catalogue. Another design in their workshop is a personal design for John. Anoth micro crying dinghy this one is very Bolger/Layden inspired. Take a read, seems it's a nesting dinghy? The centre section is just over 6' long and enables the crew to sleep aboard. Looks like the two end section unbolt and store inside the main hull, so stored length is 6'.

    http://www.clcboats.com/forum/clcfor...ead/29741.html







    Brian
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-05-2015 at 10:13 AM.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    "There seems to be a small but enthusiastic following for this type of boat in France, albeit not built in wood."

    Yeah she'd go down a storm in Brittany, for an event like Morbihan week. They'd love her shape, plan and arrangement. Very Breton. I think broadly the south coast bats took inspiration from them. The Hasting's beach boats were similar. Alot of cross fertilization accross the Channel.


    Edward
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-05-2015 at 07:13 AM.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    I went through a phase where I was quite obsessed with boats like these although most of the ones I was interested in had cabins as well. Or I'd dream up ways to put a cabin on them.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    I neglected to mention that I think Nanoship is a handsome little thing that is better than handsome as she features a number of functional attributes. I reckon her look will appeal to the historic and romantic notions in folks....................like me. Life is too short to sail ugly boats and this one looks good, now if she was a bit more of a skinny water sailor........

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by sailoar View Post
    ... The rub about short fat boats is oar storage...
    Not to mention the rub that they don't row very well.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Look, I like it. I don't want one, don't need one, wouldn't recommend one for the kind of boating I do. But I'd be happy to see more cute lil' boats like this out and about than many others. It's a Bolger Oldshoe that isn't hideous, but still well within the capabilities of an absolute first-time boatbuilder. What's not to like?

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Sometimes pockets can be fashioned into forward bulkheads so that full length wooden oars can be used on short boats. Such is the case with SCAMP where pockets can be placed into bulkhead three to accept oar blades so the boat can easily store the ideal length 9' 3" oars. Because of its lightness, SCAMPs can row well enough in a lot of cases to do without a motor but I found that Gabrielle needed the centerboard lowered down a little bit so she would track better for rowing.

    I kind of think CLC's Nanoship out does the SCAMP in the cuteness factor. It does have a pointy end and it's got that European look to it. It's the kind of boat (similar to the SCAMP) that can be set up in your front yard and people will be stopping in to learn more about it, in other words, one heck of a lawn ornament.

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    is there an actual photo of this highly controversial boat lauded as lovely and pretty? im a nebbish and your the experts but are these descriptors based on that drawing?

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    Default Re: CLC Nanoship 12'6" water ballasted self righting cruising dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by Boater14 View Post
    is there an actual photo of this highly controversial boat lauded as lovely and pretty? im a nebbish and your the experts but are these descriptors based on that drawing?
    From one nebbish to another there are indeed a number of experts posting widely varying opinions here and indeed they seem to know what they are talking about and so I see them as informed opinion.

    Seems the experts are deducing general traits about a boat that I do not believe exists yet (likely could be wrong here, perhaps one is under construction) except on paper. The comments the experts are putting forth although seemingly controversial are likely quite accurate based on the type, size, sail area, etc and their general notions/experiences with other boats. This array of informed opinion is interesting and informative to me given the scant information that can be deduced from the drawings.

    The design is a new interpretation and drawing and seems a straight up knock off of an existing historic type with a few tweaks such as water ballast, engine well, etc. This historic type has been around for years and as such is known to perform a certain way in certain conditions. Designers often rely on what exists as a design baseline and this seems to be the case here.

    So whats the big deal?
    Many folks just like cute boats (even if they don't perform so well), others look for straight function and others a combination of the two. Not counting myself amongst the experts but a person who appreciates the beauty of good form equaling good function and good function equaling good form I think this design looks at first glance an easy boat to make fairly accurate conjecture about. She looks like she should be a nice sailing boat with safety as a primary feature.

    As a dedicated small boat cruiser I tip function over form (looks) when it comes down to practical on the water across condition performance attributes such as weatherliness, safety, ability to easily get her up on a beach, ability to sail very shallow water at times and ease of handling off and on a trailer.

    I figure this little boat could fill a niche for many purposes quite well but may not be that poke deep up an estuary where the birds are standing on the water dinghy cruiser so many dream about.

    In my best nebbish voice I'd say to the designer on first blush she looks like a sailboat should.

    To those who reckon the smallest boats don't perform well, I say hmmm, not so. Its all relative, what short waterline boats lose in speed is easily made up for in the superb tactile feel of being so close to the water and a real sensation of speed. If you want to go fast get a motorcycle.

    I have done some miles in another small dinghy cruiser, the just under 12 foot SCAMP and humbly stated have often stayed with or have sailed past larger boats because she does sail relatively quickly for her size.

    SCAMP is a new concept for a small cruiser (at least in my book quite remarkably new) drawn from a thoughtful design brief and the designers experience with other boats. SCAMP has elicited bravos and many proponents as well as a few detractors (I reckon its the bow) as anything so original often does. I was one of the test pilots for SCAMP and based on safety, sailing performance and overall abilities I decided to buy a kit and build one. She ticked all the form/function boxes I look for in the dinghy cruiser category. She is but one boat in my quiver, not ideal for all my purposes but close to perfect in the dinghy cruiser genre.

    In closing I find it very exciting to see so many capable small boat designs entering the market. Seems logical given our times, costs, water access, etc.
    I think Nanoship could prove herself to be a worthy entry the small boat world. I look forward to sailing one some day.

    Like you I am looking forward to photos and more information.

    Apologies to all for the long post.....give a guy like me twenty minutes and I can bore the socks off anyone.
    Last edited by Howard Rice; 01-06-2015 at 02:15 AM.

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