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Thread: Gartside 170

  1. #1
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    Default Gartside 170

    The dreaming, the building, the launch and the adventures - it's all good. I can't say that the dreaming is done, but the building is under way. Our current daysailer, a Fulmar is still as much of a joy as the day she was launched in 2003. However, "Let's Went" can sometimes be a handful for Sue and I as we enter into geezer status. The dreaming component of this build was bounded by a few "musts and wants". Musts: 1) She has to be much less reliant on human ballast. 2) Must be fun and capable under sail. 3) Has to be relatively easy to trailer (rig has 4500 lbs tow capacity). 4) Must have a cuddy that enables weekending and use in moderately inclement weather. 5) She needs to have the maximum LWL that will fit into my limited shop space.
    I could have settled on any number of boats. Besides the 170, boats that really caught my attention were the 166, Romilly, Meaban, Beniguet, Kotik, Eun Na Mara and Cape Henry.


    The lofting got off to a slow start last spring. Perhaps I turned a little bit mental during that process, but it was a good way to become more familiar with the boat. As of yesterday, I've begun fairing the ribbands.

    I'll commit an egregious jinx and claim that launch will be in 2 years. Ha Ha
    Bruce

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Must follow this build! Plans say strip plank, but are you cold- molding?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    The plans include cold molding. There are 2 layers of 3/16" veneers set diagonally and 1 fore and aft layer of 1/4". The outside has 6 oz. cloth. I'll use Western Red Cedar.

  4. #4
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    Default

    Excellent! I've really liked the look of that design since I first saw it. Looking forward to seeing more. Why did you decide to cold mould instead of strip planking?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Hi bheys, I'll be following this build. Interested to see how you come across those thickness veneers? Will you cut them yourself?

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Very good!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    That is really great Bruce. I follow with great interest as I plan to cold-mold Gartside design #166 (couple of years behind you though :-)) I hope you post a lot of information and photos as you go ahead. Do you have some more photos now, from different angles?

    Fred

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Looking forward to seeing this come together. Nice design!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything"

    Roosevelt, Theodore

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Several years ago I had the good fortune to see Dave Lesser's 160 being built in Sydney, BC. I was gobsmacked by the design and the cold molding technique. AndyK - I will quote Mr. Gartside: "There's no question in my mind that of the glued methods, cold molding is the superior system. It is utterly stable, has maximum strength and minimum weight." On strip planking:http://www.gartsideboats.com/faq/mor...s-opinion.html. AndrewP - I do intend to cut the veneers myself. There's a WRC mill about 2 miles from my house. Gartside indicates that he cuts his own veneers on the tablesaw. I have a 5hp tablesaw, a 19" bandsaw and a jig for my planer that enables planing of veneer. However, if the milling turns out to be a bust, there is a commercial milling outfit 35 miles north that will do the deed. Fred - here's a few pics: www.flickr.com/photos/126265306@N07/sets/72157648989345715/

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Thankyou for the inspiering pics! I cant see any dust...? I have not worked with cold-molding, but I expect a little less fairing with that method vs strip-planking. Any comments on that? (Not done any strip-planking either)

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    The 8/4 WRC stock I picked up yields 6 veneers, 6 inches wide. I've been using a thin kerf flat top 24 tooth rip blade. So far I've milled 325 sq. ft. which I figure is somewhat less than half of what I'll need, but enough for the first of 3 layers. The 3/16" veneers conform over the mold adequately. I'm experimenting with the best angle that will have the least amount of edge distortion. Just ordered some cold cure epoxy. Not much will happen until it arrives. I bought some strapping tape to help with staple removal. It wants to split and break much more easily than I'd hoped.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    How thick are the battens/stringers?

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Great build, please keep the pictures coming.
    Don't worry I'm happy

    "The law is what we have to live with.
    Justice is sometimes harder to achieve."

    Sherlock Holmes

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    I cold molded a 16 foot melonseed using 3mm occume plywood for my staves and the Ashcroft method. With a minimum of fairing it came out to be a fine and light boat. See www.traditionalsmallcraft.com under melonseeds/MOGGIE for more on the build.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Wick View Post
    I cold molded a 16 foot melonseed using 3mm occume plywood for my staves and the Ashcroft method. With a minimum of fairing it came out to be a fine and light boat. See www.traditionalsmallcraft.com under melonseeds/MOGGIE for more on the build.
    Hey Mike,
    I didn't see any mention of either the "glues" used or the plank orientation. Did you have both layers of 3mm ply diagonal to the keel and parallel to each other per Ashcroft? What did 3mm do vs veneers? Cheaper or save time?

    -Eddie
    My Sooty and other boats: https://lingeringlunacy.com/

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Cool project. I'll be following along.
    Chuck Thompson

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Eddie,
    I used occume because a buddy had done his 'seed that way, and I liked his boat. I used Cold mold because it was a building method I hadn't tried yet. I found the 3mm staves were very easy to shape and use. 20 degrees off vertical was fine for most staves, but I went up to 40 degrees as I approached the bow.
    The Ashcroft method was perfect because of the strength of the buried layers of occume in the staves meant that there was diagonal strength. 10 ounce cloth on the outside and kevlar strengthing buried under 10 ounce cloth on the inside made for a strong hull. Inside strength is as important as outside strength in a cold-mold hull. I used a Lucas melonseed hull as a male mold and then passed his hull on to another builder. That meant no wooden stem but I listened to Joe Dobbler and used layers of glass and kevlar to strengthen the bowsections. I felt the two layers of 3 mm required a monocoke hull, so I used epoxy instead of Titebond between the layers. Cleanup after popping the new hull off the mold was strenuous, but I knew she would be strong. MOGGIE is strong and light, but she is noisy going to windward as the hull strikes the waves. But she is fast!
    Last edited by Michael Wick; 12-01-2014 at 09:29 AM. Reason: spelling

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Great project and beautiful work so far.

    I helped to build a cold-molded Bill Garden Tom Cat at the WoodenBoat School a few years ago. The first layer was fastened just at the sheer and the keel. The positions of the ribbands were marked on the first layer. The second layer was then spiled and dry fit, temporarily fastened only at the keel and sheer. The 2nd layer veneers were then numbered and removed. Both layers were then glued at one time, with the staples going through both layers into the ribbands. No need to edge glue the first layer separately. A few photos here:

    www.flickr.com/photos/jdlesser/sets/72157601660141886

    If you are having trouble getting your veneers to conform to tight bends, you might try planing them just a little thinner. You will be surprised how much difference 1/32" can make in their flexibility. You can make up the difference in the fore-and-aft layer.

    On our #160 build, we used doug fir for the outer fore-and-aft layer. It's a little harder than WRC and gives better impact resistance.

    Best of luck. Looking forward to following your progress.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Look forward to progress, good design choice...a bit brighter and airy than a Kotik down below and possibly a bit faster.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Thanks Dave, the advise and those photos are really useful. I'm committed now to the specified 3/16". In fact, the first veneers were a bit challenging. I then tried laying half width veneers (3") and that helped, but doubled the amount of spiling, etc. Now that I am beyond the midsection moving fore and aft, laying out full width veneers is not hard. Throughout this project it is going to be ever so obvious that I know little of what I'm doing in many facets and really could use some formal instruction. A class of the type you took at the WoodenBoat School would be mighty useful. Thank goodness there is no need to determine any value to my labor time. Coincidentally, I chose to not edge glue the first layer of veneers. The Gougeon Brothers seem somewhat ambivalent and John Guzzwell strongly recommends against edge gluing. He claims a more fair hull is achieved by gluing the first and second layers together just as you described.
    I'm using Raka epoxy. I recently bought some cold temperature hardener. Unlike the standard 2 to 1 ratio used with the 350 non-blush, the cold temp. is a 4 to 1 ratio. This hardener is also much more viscous making it difficult to pour. I've always mixed by volume. The quantities that I mix at this stage are small. Using a digital scale might be more accurate. Can I assume that utilizing weight or volume measuring yield equivalent amounts for the purpose at hand?

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    I got (almost) caught out by using volume/weight. I only use weight with my normal epoxy, and the left over packs of Inter are volume 4-1, which did not quite work out to be correct when mixed by weight as i had more hardener left over and run out of resin......luckily the epoxy i had put down in fillets had gone off fine, but having done the same thing with West, i had to scrape the whole gooey mess out as it didnt do its thing. Definately worth testing a small batch.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    The mix ratios may not be exactly 4:1 for measurement by weight due to the resin and hardener having different densities. The manufacturer should be able to provide ratios by weight. Measuring by weight is very accurate, more accurate than measuring by volume for small batches.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Quote Originally Posted by bheys View Post
    Can I assume that utilizing weight or volume measuring yield equivalent amounts for the purpose at hand?
    I use West System and mix by weight with a digital scale. I was under the (false) impression that the mix was 5:1 by volume or weight. Looking more closely at the tech data sheets, I found this:

    206 Slow Hardener - mix ratio by weight is 5.36:1 (acceptable range 4.83 to 6.01)
    205 Fast Hardener - mix ratio by weight is 5.19:1 (acceptable range 4.84 to 6.20)

    So 5:1 falls within the acceptable range, but for optimal strength and flexibility it would be better to use the recommended ratios. Not that hard to do using a digital scale. Pouring the hardener first makes for more accurate mixing.

    Raka recommends mixing by volume and I couldn't find an equivalent weight ratio on their website, but I did find this:

    Epoxies strength and desirable properties come from the complete mating of the resin and hardener molecules in the correct ratio. Too little hardener produces brittleness, and too much hardener makes your epoxy softer with the accompanying loss of strength. If you make an error, you're safer to use a little less hardener, than too much. Generally speaking you can have a 20% error tolerance on the minus hardener side and 10% on the plus side and still get an acceptable cure. Regardless, your cure will have less strength than its ultimate potential!
    You might call them if you want to know the precise ratios by weight for their various hardeners.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Duckworks has a downloadable/printable table for using MarineEpoxy by weight
    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/supplies...rtByWeight.pdf

    Other suppliers probably have similar data, or you could weigh known volumes and create a spreadsheat.
    For small quantities I use thoroughly cleaned and dried plastic bottles that once held dishwashing soap. It's easy to dispense either part in fractions of a gram. That should be accurate enough for any boatbuilding purpose.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    The second 3/16" veneer is attached. Adhesive blobs have been scraped and sanded off. Long board fairing is next, but mostly the hull looks and feels near- fair. The last layer is 1/4" x 1 3/8" strips layed fore and aft. It's not been a speedy process, but remains fun.




  26. #26
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    looking great Bhays, the veneers you cut were they vert grain or flatsawn?. Do they feel soft or is there a certain amount of firmness about the layup?. Will you use WRC for last layer? do you need to spile each plank as you fit it to hull? Are you going to glass over ?

    Sorry about all the Q's but i have fantasies of a Gartside 116 ( and plans!!! ) in my future which is Strip/2 cold mould veneers of WRC.

    Andrew

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    And you keep tracking the time i see :-) Looking good!

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Andrew - the veneers are vertical grain. WRC is quite soft and dents rather easily. Not sure what you mean regarding firmness of the layup. I've hoisted myself on top of the hull to sand/scrape and it all seems very solid. Of course it is all supported by the mold ribbands. The first layer was adhered only at the sheer, stem, transom and keelson. The second layer is locked down with thickened epoxy. In the photos you'll notice a few screws with hardboard washers. These areas want to lift away from the mold - perhaps 1/8" or so. Hopefully, the last layer of WRC will encourage these areas to hug the mold. Gartside specifies a glass coating on the 170 for both the strip and the cold molded versions. For strip he specs 12 oz. biaxial cloth both inside and out. For the cold molded version he specs 6 oz. cloth on the outside. Perhaps I will add 6 oz. to the inside as well for a "belt and suspenders" approach.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Looking great! Well done!
    /fredrik

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    At the risk of using nautically incorrect language for this type of construction - yesterday the whiskey plank was attached. Cheers! The last layer of 1/4" veneer took one month. There was no spiling involved, but the pieces were smaller so it took awhile. Raptor staples were used for this last layer. I will return to cold molding for the cabin top, where I hope to use cutoffs from the first two layers. There's very little waste from this last layer. After sanding and a bit of fairing I will establish the flat for the deadwood, keel and outer stem assembly. The 72" 6 oz. cloth has been ordered and just fits at the widest portion. I haven't decided whether to add some decorative veneer to the transom or to just end up painting the gaboon ply.



  31. #31
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    The deadwood, keel and outer stem assembly are attached and the rough shaping is done. It's been a nice change of pace after the repetition of 3 planking layers. The deadwood has a concave shape in section and this is new woodworking territory for me. So far, so good. In preparation for the 3/8" bolts that attach the inner and outer stems I had to remove the mold support that ran perpendicular to station 1 and running to the inside surface of the inner stem. There is extremely little working room in the bow area and that support had to come out in little pieces. It was far and away the worst task of the whole project. However, it was my first perspective of the inside of the boat. It seems pretty big to me. I thought while I was under there I would get some bright idea how to trim the planking to the sheer, but that task will have to wait until the boat is flipped.




    If you're interested, there is a link to additional pictures in post #9.
    Bruce

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Bruce well done. Tell me is that final layer with the cross planking running into the strips what PG specifies. I havnt seen done like that before.
    Last edited by andrewpatrol; 04-14-2015 at 03:07 AM.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Did you stay with cedar for the final strips? They look like they could be douglas fir.
    T
    Why are there [boats] at all, and why not rather nothing? That is the question."
    Martin Heidegger

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Very nice! Did you build the complete keel and then cur out the ballast keel or was the ballast keel planned for in the beginning?

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Gartside 170

    Andrew - The wider planks on the last layer cover an area of the hull with little curvature. No spiling was required. Gougeon Brothers identify this technique in their book. It is a significant time-saver. This last layer is 1/4" thick and the wider planks are quite stiff. Fortunately, there is a fairly large flatish area. Gypsie - Yes the final layer is WRC (as per plans).

    I cut a rabbet in the planking adjacent to the centerboard slot and you can get an idea of the hull thickness. It seems that this hull should be plenty stiff. Dent resistance for the fairly soft cedar will come from the fiberglass. Trango - I did not cut out the area for the ballast keel. CVG Doug Fir is too expensive for me to do that. However, I was able to defray some of the cost of that expensive wood by using salvage Doug Fir the local university was getting rid of. In fact, I have a fair bit of this salvage wood and I plan on using it wherever possible. Gartside specs a 600 lb. ballast keel and 60 lbs. of lead in the the centerboard.

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