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Thread: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

  1. #1
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    Default Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    I was talking with some people about my plans for building a trailer-sailer, and they asked me if I wantet a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. They had decided to give it away, as it needed restoration, and they where not able to do it themselves. They actually talked about throwing it on the fire, because the shed it was stored in was going to be demolished, and they didn`t have any alternatives. They had tried to offer it to someone else also. I could not say no! Me and a friend was driving 900 kilometres yesterday to pick it up :-)

    This is a so called "Seksring" Nordlandsbåt (three pair of oars) It is a traditional boat, but it is relatively new, buildt in 1996. There are some traditional boat builder still in northern part of Norway, and this is buildt in Bindal. It is buildt in Spruce, and is wery light.

    The restoration:
    A previous owner have done some real bad modifications. There is a hole right thru the keel aft, made for an outboard motor, so this part of the keel must be replaced. The hull is painted inside (not by the builder) and this paint must be remowed and replaced with oil. Some of the frames have been remowed, but I dont know why. A couple of them must be made new. There are som cracks in the planking, an this is what worries me the most. I dont have the skills to replace the planking so i need advice on what to do about it. There is a couple of cracks that has been repaired with a plank outside, just screwed on. Other than this the planking is good. The rig and sails are in wery good shape, and it seems like it might not have been used at all.

    I thrust this forum to give me some good advices on this project. Most of the work will be done next spring, but I might start a little, if the weather doesnt get to cold. So here are some pictures:











    Last edited by Fredostli; 10-19-2014 at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    This is Peerie Maa


    When I took her on she had many split planks and needed reframed. The old splits had been repaired with wood tingles clenched to the inside.

    So I repaired the new splits the same way and reframed her over the repairs.

    Alternatively you could widen the splits and glue in a spruce spline with epoxy.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Thanks Nick! Did you use clinker to fasten the wood tingles? (what is clenched) I do have a gallon of epoxy, but i am not shure how this method works when the wood swells...?

    BTW. beatiful this Peerie Maa!

    Regards Fred

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredostli View Post
    Thanks Nick! Did you use clinker to fasten the wood tingles? (what is clenched) I do have a gallon of epoxy, but i am not shure how this method works when the wood swells...?

    BTW. beatiful this Peerie Maa!

    Regards Fred
    Some were clenched with rooves, some had the nails turned back. Peerie is copper fastened, as you will probably be using galvo iron you will be using rooves.

    The tingle usually moves with the plank, unless she really dries out which is what caused the splits in the first place. Then the crack will widen, but the tingle will hold.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Hi!

    This document may be useful for you: http://www.hardangerogvossmuseum.no/...artoyvern9.pdf

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Thanks for the dokument Faering, I must read carefully after work (Nynorsk ikke min sterke side :-). I see they talk about epoxy there also as Peeri Maa did. I guess it will be easyer to find the best method when the paint is remowed and the cracks more wisible. It is starting to get cold here, so i will keep it dry until next spring. James, would you call this a " family-sail and oar" ?

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Nice one Fred! I noticed Bertil Andersson was selling plans for a 19ft Norlands boat.....i was very tempted, but as someone who does not shy away from using an outboard when necessary, not really the right choice, but i love the lines. My vattern Snipa has several cracked planks that always close after soaking, though this year under sail i did seem to be taking on more water than usual, though dipping the rail doesnt help! Are these normally kept beached after use? Maybe fine if kept afloat. How thick is the planking? Keep the pictures coming.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    I have not measured the planking-thicknes, but the boat is wery light now after been stored indors for at least 5 years. This boat is best kept afloat at least the whole summer-season, so i will try to find a way to do that, but smaller boats are often kept beached. I have a "booth" in our local marina, but there i have a cabincruiser all year around, so I must look for an alternative. The goal with this project will be to learn to know this boats, and sail it with some friends that shear that interest. I had to save it for from the fire too! I will still build a trailersailer as I wont miss the joy of that process. I am surprised if someone sells plans for a Nordlandsboat, because they build them without plans. they use some basic measueres and calculations, but the boats are not lofted from a full offset-table and there is no full size plans. This means non of them are 100% identical. (correct me if I am wrong about this, but i have been doing some reading)

    Fred

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    From what i read, Bertil takes measurements from existing boats and draws up basic lines and frames. None of the plans i have bought have offsets. For traditional building where there has always been some difference in individual boats, the information is enough to build from......admittedly some people need far more information than a set of hull lines.


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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    That makes sence, and there you have the "seksring"`s little brother. Below is a good picture of the profile while the boat was still on the trailer. It is 6,2 meters + the rudder. On the picture you also see the ruined keel aft.


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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Great looking boat, looking forward to watching your progress.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    It looks as though you are going to need to find a grown crook to replace the keel aft from original scarf to original scarf. So much has been cut away that it will be difficult to join the stump of the stern post to the keel with adequate strength.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    I had a phonecall to the builder of the boat today. The previous owner told me the builder had looked at the boat 5 years ago when he got it, so i was interested in a chat with him about it. It was a bit depressing because he believed the boat might be beyond saving, but he had just a short glance at it. He said the boat was treated real bad, especially with the paint, and he was not very found of repairs with tingles. I can understand him, because he has done a really good job on building it, so it must be sad seeing it badly treated. Despite this I wont give it up. i think it is too good to throw on the fire. As far as I can see now there is no rot in the planking, just these cracks, but this will be more clear when I get some of the paint of.

    Nick. I asked him about the keel stem joint. it is joined right in the angel between stem and keel, not with a grown crook like in earlier types.

    I am interested in any experiences with using epoxy and a spline in the cracks as Nick talk about. I also find this method described in the document (Norwegian) Faering posted. How does the epoxy spline react to swelling and drying. Is there a chance of rot around the epoxy gluing?

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredostli View Post
    Nick. I asked him about the keel stem joint. it is joined right in the angel between stem and keel, not with a grown crook like in earlier types.

    I am interested in any experiences with using epoxy and a spline in the cracks as Nick talk about. I also find this method described in the document (Norwegian) Faering posted. How does the epoxy spline react to swelling and drying. Is there a chance of rot around the epoxy gluing?
    Can you post more pictures of what is left of the stern from the outside, from both sides and below? Then we can see what you have left to work with.

    If you use the same wood for the splines as are in the planks they will behave as if they were the plank. If there is no rot there yet (remember you are cutting back to a flat surface that you can glue to) there is no more risk of rot than anywhere else in the boat.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Cute Seksring.
    This hole through the keel makes me wonder how mindless People can be. ?
    Don´t you live in the Bodo area? Then you should see Kai Linde in Rognan.
    He could offer advice and has buildingmaterials for Nordlandsboats in store.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Nick: i will take some pictures og the stern after i have removed the paint, so the joint is more visible, but I believe they are tapered together. thanks for the input on the epoxy-spline method, and since the boat is very dry, I might go that route. I guess if you use epoxy, its important not to encapsulate the splines on all sides, so they kan svell and dry with the rest of the plank? I do have dry spruce laying around enough for splines or tingles. Nick, do you have a thread or some photos of the Peerie Maa restoration? in that case I am interested to see. The boatbuilders here strongly advice against painting the boat inside and out, but I see that you did. What is your experience on that?

    Max: i do know about Kai Linde. He`s workshop is 45 minutes drive from here. I have never visited him, but I plan to do it. I mailied him and he take visitors into he`s workshop. I will try to get a second opinion on restoring this boat. Kai Linde http://kailinde.no/ in Saltdal build he`s boats in Pine (Pinus sylvestris) My boat is buildt in the southern part of Nordland where they for the most build in spruce (Picea abies). We also have boatbuilder Ulf Mikalsen http://ulf.no/ in Kjærringøy, one hour drive (and a ferry) north of Bodø, and I might pay him a visit too. They both do building and restorations, so I hope they are villing to share some knowledge. Their websites is in Norwegian, but they also have a lot of photos that might interest people on this forum.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Epoxy splines should be fine, i should really do my snipa at some point as im not so fond of tingles. Thanks for the links, interesting stuff. Think i need a road trip next summer.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Thanks Scaraborgcraft! You are also velcome to step by here and look at the projects if you are in the area! I guess we can find something to chat about, and the cofffe is always on the table :-) I might consider tingles in the bottom planks if they are weakened by the splits/cracks and epoxy splines elsewhere.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    I have had good luck with the epoxy spline method. I had a old Rana boat made from spruce with a lot of plank cracks and also my father dropped the end of a oar on another boat of mine and put a 2' crack in the broadstrake. They were repaired with the spline method and worked great.

    I drill a hole through the plank ahead of the crack and behind a little ways glue a small dowel in. Then route out the crack for your spline (Not quite all the way through to the other side of the plank). Mix up your thickend epoxy and glue in your spline. If your spline sticks out of the plank thats ok, you can plane or sand it flush after the epoxy cures.

    I can't belive someone was thinking about burning that boat, unless it was for a viking funeral.
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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Thanks a lot emf! This was a good support to go ahead! I have been removing paint several places, and I cant find any rot. There is some cracks up to 7 mm wide. They were filled with Tec-7 or similar. The widest ones have a tingle screwed outside, and I will try to remove them. The pic below show one of the worst. A question? Why don`t you route all the way thru?

    I also post a pic of the stern-joint. Its a bit hard to see, but I believe the keel and stem are tapered together. In the pic you also see where I have removed paint, and the wood is light and fresh. There will be a lot of work, but I think it will be worth it, especially if this epoxy method works. I am familiar with epoxy too.





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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredostli View Post
    Nick, do you have a thread or some photos of the Peerie Maa restoration? in that case I am interested to see. The boatbuilders here strongly advice against painting the boat inside and out, but I see that you did. What is your experience on that?
    Hi,
    I have cared for Peerie Maa since the mid '80's, long before I have been a member of this forum. I did post a thread about putting in buoyancy.
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ing-Peerie-Maa

    All I know about painting Shetland models is from the research published by Adrian Osler and Edgar march. The boats were originally coated with boat soup in common with Norwegian practice until the crofters got access to the paint left over from repainting the lighthouses on Shetland. They have been painting ever since.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredostli View Post
    What is the other side like? That rudder hanging looks wrong, but it will have to come off anyway.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    I will take some more pictures tomorrow, it was dark when I took this. The rudder hanging is ok i believe, but I will take a pic with the rudder on tomorrow. I will soon move the boat into the shed. and build a stand for it to make it easy to work on the hull. Interesting what you tell about the paint Nick

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Why don`t you route all the way thru?
    I don't think it maters, that is just the way I did it. As long as you can get the spline well glued.
    "I see!" said the blind man who picked up his hammer and saw.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Not routing all the way through should simplify getting the inside ready to paint, it would leave a smoother surface unless the crack is large enough to let a lot of epoxy leak through.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    I had a similar lower pintle/gudgeon strap on my Koster, i had never seen that type before either. The lighthouse paint is one typical of islanders making use of what is availiable, and i guess it must have been ok. Heres the split on my snipa, that miraculously closes up every year, and is filled with ettan.



    It has opened up to 10mm in places. I had more leakage through the laps this year under a press of sail than through any of the splits, but she is kept afloat all summer.
    Would that be linseed oil paint used on that boat Fred?

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Thanks for all replies on the epoxy spline method. I will try this. It is common to use Linseed oil mix with tar on the hull. To get color I will mix my own linseed paint but use it only at the sheer planking. Impressiv how this crack close up. I believe the hole with a dowel in the ends of the cracks when gluing splines, is important to release some of the pressure this changes in the planks make when wet.
    Last edited by Fredostli; 10-22-2014 at 10:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    The snow came today, so it was time to get the boat in the shed. The shed is a part of the barn, and I am making it to a boat-building shed,with a insulated "office" in the end of the room. One good thing about this project is that I will test how the shed works for boat-building. As you might know I have some plans :-) http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ide-design-166



    Here is another picture of the stern joint. If you look closely you see it is tapered together (As far as I can see)


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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    This

    and this

    look so similar that I cannot see how the joint works, unless the rudder hanging is holding the joint together. You refer to its being tapered, which implies a scarf joint, but I can see no evidence of that. Maybe all will be revealed when the rudder hangar comes off.
    Is there a tennon on the stern post housed in a mortice in the keel?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredostli View Post
    ......This boat is best kept afloat at least the whole summer-season, so i will try to find a way to do that, but smaller boats are often kept beached.

    ...... I am surprised if someone sells plans for a Nordlandsboat, because they build them without plans. they use some basic measueres and calculations, but the boats are not lofted from a full offset-table and there is no full size plans. This means non of them are 100% identical. (correct me if I am wrong about this, but i have been doing some reading)

    Fred
    If you manage to get the boat fairly water tight, I think it will be better to keep the boat ashore when not used and keeping the “nygle” out so the boat is drained all the time (remember to put it back in before launching). If you leave the boat on the sea for the summer months, the wood will be soaked with water and swell and start new cracking processes. It is the drying after the swelling that causes the cracks. This boat has been in the sea continuously for too long time, that’s why there are so many cracks. If you don’t let it swell, it will not crack. Keeping the boat “dry” (on shore when not in use), will make it last “forever”. (Since the boat is equipped with a “nygle” it is meant to be drained after use).

    The drawings made by Bertil Andersson are documentary drawings and not really made for making new boats, though it is possible to build a boat from them if you have some basic knowledge of how to do it. There are a lot of similar drawings available from Norsk Maritimt Museum.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Here is a closer look. I think I am making some confusion with my bad english when I am talking about "tapered" :-) I believe there is a tennon in the stern post housed in a mortice in the keel as you suggest. You can see that in the end of the keel. I hope to get some time this weekend to do more investigation on it, and maybe remove the keel part. I expect I have to to loosen some of the nails on the keel planks and widen it out a bit to get this part loose. Anyhow I am convinced it is posible to restore this boat, and this forum is a great help.

    Last edited by Fredostli; 10-23-2014 at 01:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    It was an interesting comment Faering. I must admit I have just a little experience with wooden boats, but what you say do make sence. When i am planning to build a trailer sailer, I want to have it on a trailer most of the time, because i already have another boat that is on the water in the marina all year. At first i was thinking maybe this boat could not be used that way. If I get myself a trailer, i can use it for the seksring, and later on the trailersailer. Actually when Kai Linde talk about this on he`s website, he describes it as suited for trailering. The boat is also wery light. The Nordlandsboat`s made in Bindal as this is known for beeing light.
    Last edited by Fredostli; 10-23-2014 at 01:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredostli View Post
    Here is a closer look. I think I am making some confusion with my bad english when I am talking about "tapered" :-) I believe there is a tennon in the stern post housed in a mortice in the keel as you suggest. You can see that in the end of the keel. I hope to get some time this weekend to do more investigation on it, and maybe remove the keel part. I expect I have to to loosen some of the nails on the keel planks and widen it out a bit to get this part loose. Anyhow I am convinced it is posible to restore this boat, and this forum is a great help.
    Yes that is a tennon. It will come free when you remove the rudder hanging and then look for any other fastenings. You should free off the hood end fastenings of at least two strakes into the stern post to allow the garboards to spring enough to take the keel out. If you don't you will risk cracking a strake on the stern post.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    I had a couple more suggestions for your boat.

    You can remove a plank and replace a new one if you think the plank is not worth saveing by grinding the head of the roves off and useing a nail set to drive out the old rivits. The old plank can be used as a pattern for your new one. It may be nessasary to steam the new plank if it has a lot of bend.

    Also, you may want to remove some of the bad rivits(rusty) and replace with new. The ones you want to leave in hit with a wire brush and rust remover(ospho) and the surrouding rust stains in the wood. Paint with anti rust paint or linseed oil.

    If the plank lapps are gappy or loose, you may be able to tighten up the old rivits by going over them with ball peen and bucking iron. It may be a two man job. One to peen and one to hold the bucking iron.

    I hope this helps.












    \\\ and the rust stains in the wood too.
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    Default Re: Restoring a 20 ft. Nordlandsbåt. Traditional row and sail from northern Norway.

    That will be a sweet boat when you get it fixed!

    If you do go the 'proper' route and replace the plank, don't cut it exactly to the shape of the old one. Each new board bends a little different. The old board will give you a good start, but it will need to be shaped to fit by mounting, marking, removing and adjusting. 3,4,5 rounds of marking and adjusting should do it. Cut the new board large enough to leave room for adjustments (tilpasninger).

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