question about older ketch or yawl handling

[cappel]

I was hoping I could get some advice on a problem I've been working on. I'm writing an adventure story in a mid century setting. In one chapter, two men escape from trouble on a 1930's racing yacht--a ketch or perhaps a yawl of about 65 to 75 feet. They know how to sail and could handle the boat for a pleasure cruise, but they are under crewed for a chase. Obviously, there's no modern automation to help with the rigging. Over the course of the escape they'll have to manage a variety of course changes through all points of sail. The weather is fair and the journey is short, but I'd like to engineer a few problems to build suspense.


Ketches and Yawls aren't as common as they once were, and I'm having some trouble digging up information on such a hypothetical scenario. I hate it when an author writes a story on a specialized subject and gets his details wrong, and I don't want to do that myself. I came across this forum during my research and have learned a lot, but I was wondering if some of the veteran's here might be willing offer their insights on what sort of problems two men in that situation might encounter trying to handle a boat that slightly too big for them. What extra difficulties would they have beating upwind, jibing, trimming sails, etc?


Thanks in advance for any help.
Chris

[Ian McColgin]

Actually, boats of this size should not be too hard for a couple of energetic gents to handle. If you go with a yawl, it might be a bit harder to handle because the main would be considerably larger. While the ketch is more likely (not necessarily) to have a double headsail rig, the forestaysail will be clubbed and thus 'self-tacking'. You'd only have to work the jib Many yawls of that size and vintage would have just a jib and it would be bigger, so more work.

Winches were a bit less ubiquitous in those days so on whichever rig, the jib is the big work sail.

Both could have running backstays to put some tension on the forestaysail stay.

Take a good look at L Francis Herreshoff's "Sensible Cruising Designs" to see the layouts and rigs for some better examples of what you want and some for sure more readily sailed short handed.

I am not sure how to give notions of handling issues without knowing about about your sailing level. If you know how to pace casting off a jib sheet just when the jib breaks in a tack - no backwind and no early drop - and reel in the slack on the other sheet so's you don't have to fine trim more than a few inches, one major smoothness issue is solved. If you don't know, or maybe if you want your charactors to learn in a few tacks, it's a wholly other descriptive problem.

And I've not even gotten to the magic moment of trimming the new running back just as the boat passes the eye of the wind.

Not to mention the interesting experience of gybing a big rig like that.

I think you need to go sailing.

But ask on.

G'luck.

[Hwyl]

The mizzen does not help at all going upwind and is generally dropped.
Mizzen staysals are wonderful but probably would not be set by two men
(assuming it's bermudan rigged) there would be wire reel halyard winches which require careful application of the brake band, any carelessness can lead to a a sprained wrist or brooken arm.

Getting the mainsail up would be a chore, but getting it down and stowed nicely would be almost impossible.

The jib is likely stowed in the forepeak, and would require a halyard through the hatch to lift it out (cotton sails are heavy).


There are exceptions to all these, just trying to give you an idea.

A real case http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=4602,2102952

[johnw]

Is this set in the 1930s, or is it just an old boat? The sails and gear will have changed if the setting is recent.

[Ian McColgin]

Gareth makes a point that diverges from my experience. On both ketches and yawls I've found the mizzen most helpful to weather, though on many yawls the mizzen is so small as to not matter much. Off the wind with a ketch the biggish mizzen can partly blanket the main and make it want to gybe earlier. Depending upon the wind, the ketch's mizzen may add more weatherhelm than power off the wind and so might be dropped.

Certainly if the boat is 'modern' for it's time it could have reel halyard winches and wire halyards, making it more likely that two could handle the boat. You'll want to decide on the two major brake types and learn about the dangers of the brake letting loose with a handle in the winch.

On boats that size I've sailed we furled and tied the jib on the rail unless the boat was being really put away. Spare and alternate jibs were in the forepeak and indeed are a bit too heavy for easy handling.

[John B]

To gybe a ketch is actually quite easy because of the very aspect that Ian mentions . You bear away until the main is partially blanketed by the mizzen, it goes all goofy and you literally swing it over by hand, virtually no pressure at all. Then you gybe the mizzen and it being a far smaller sail is easier to gybe as normal. I think you might do that in that size boat up to 10 or 15 knots
But if there was any serious breeze or perhaps because there is only 2 aboard a big boat they would do what we call a chicken gybe, which is a tack right around the compass rather than the gybe through 40 degrees. You wouldn't run a boat like that DDW in a breeze or a seaway either , probably about 160 so there was no chance of an accidental or crash gybe.

I sail my ketch to weather with the mizzen Ok up to a certain wind strength , but after that ( say 20 knots )the drag of the sail cancels the power gain and its better down rather than reefed as Gareth says.

[Breakaway]

I'm not the sailor that most are here...but suppose the challenge involves a breakdown or snarl that requires one of them to go aloft? Or perhaps the rudder or tiller has a problem and they need to jury rig steering? ( they could bump a whale!)

Kevin

[Mike Erkkinen]

The mizzen does not help at all going upwind and is generally dropped.
Mizzen staysals are wonderful but probably would not be set by two men
(assuming it's bermudan rigged) there would be wire reel halyard winches which require careful application of the brake band, any carelessness can lead to a a sprained wrist or brooken arm.

Getting the mainsail up would be a chore, but getting it down and stowed nicely would be almost impossible.

The jib is likely stowed in the forepeak, and would require a halyard through the hatch to lift it out (cotton sails are heavy).


There are exceptions to all these, just trying to give you an idea.

A real case http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=4602,2102952

i keep hearing the "drop the mizzen to weather" idea, but also have a much different experience. My Miz certainly adds power upwind. Unfortunately for the story, that second mast only makes life easier all around IMO - though you give up some pointing ability over a single stick. I almost never drop Miz - I do reef and eventually drop main at wind over 25 or so.

[cappel]

I wish the rest of the internet was as helpful as this forum. Thank you all for your thoughts. The best research would indeed be to crew a ketch or yawl, but I don't know anyone in the Atlanta area with a burning desire to train a 52 year old mate.

The boat would have been 30's vintage, but the story is set in the late 1950's. What happens to the boat at the end of the journey is not really a concern of the characters, although the difficulty in starting on their trip is a point I need to consider. Improving their skill as they repeatedly coming about is a good suggestion; they'll be doing a lot of tacking early on.

I had initially thought of them beating up wind on jib and main, but I may have them run using both masts based on your comments. They'll also do a long, broad reach and jibe at least once before they reach their destination. They'll also have to run along a lee shore for a bit. Nothing terribly bad happens at this stag of the story, but I certainly want to suggest that something could at any moment. There is also a chase boat (which will probably be a yawl if my characters are in a ketch) to add some urgency to the voyage. I want to have these two boats for period flavor, but also because the sailing characteristics are going to be similar--there won't be a point of sail where one had a huge advantage over the other.

Chris

[Bregalad]

For the sake of historical accuracy: In the late 50's Dacron was just coming into common use as sailcloth. Many boats would still have had cotton sails, along with their attendant problems ...... stretching and susceptibility to rot among them.

[Ian McColgin]

If you're in the late 50's the sails might be dacron or terylene. The earlier in the 50's you go, the less likely. It was new then.

You could not do better than to pick a pair of the large preWWII Herreshoff ketchs - more realistic than having a yawl in there - as two coming from different directions could have a reason to be where you need to start the adventure and you could have any number of scenerios as to the background of who is on each, from owner's son and friend to professional crew moving the boats to someone stealing one or both boats.

I think you want boats that you can find pix and info about even if they are only plans and were never built. That way you can understand the rigging, deck layout, accomodation, some idea of how fast she can go in what breezes.

G'luck

[Canoeyawl]

A good read about being a sea for a few weeks in adverse conditions with a large yawl is "Across the Atlantic in the Shamrock V" by Irving Johnson.
It is not two men, but you can imagine how it might go, this is a short read about an Atlantic crossing in a large yawl ( A J boat rigged as a yawl. Pretty descriptive including running out of rations if I remember it correctly)
Amazon has it- about $20
Hard to beat the real deal...

edit to add; 1931

[Dave Hadfield]

In our 1947 40 ft ketch, we reef, and the later drop, the main as the wind rises, going upwind. The mizzen always stays up.

Once the the main is reefed, it is lower, and more forward, and the mizzen is no longer is blanked by the main, and works well.

When it howls, we reduce to storm jib and reefed mizzen.

When tacking, we need to back the jib very slightly to make it through the eye of the wind. Timing is key. Also sometimes, as a last resort, I reach up and push the mizzen boom to weather. This kicks the stern around and gets us through.

Dave

[gilberj]

Ian's suggestion is my own as well. Pick two or three deigns that meet your imagined requirements. Don't worry if they are famous yachts. At the size you are talking a out they would all be pretty well known in their immediate area anyway, and experienced sailors like Ian and slug and Wiz bang and a few others on this forum could make reasonable guesses at the yachts behaviour in different conditions and details regarding rigging and sail-handling to be accurate.
An older yacht in the 1950's would almost definitely have had natural fibre sails. Canvas, or Egyptian cotton. With those sails you would have to remember to slack the out haul as the foot gets wet sailing hard, and perhaps the leach line as well. The head sails would likely not have winches for the sheets, but a two part purchase to make them manageable.
As Ian said..pick some designs...Herreshoff, or similar and ask the question again.

[slug]

On a boat with two masts there is twice as much work because there are twice as many sails to handle.

a ketch can spread alot of sail area on a reach...they are fast and powerful when reaching.

upwind and downwing a ketch is nothing special.

its your guys need to make a fast getawy in thier ketch it will be a 5 sail reach in light air.


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[skaraborgcraft]

My immdiate thought is where are they taking this boat from? Is it alongside a quay, in a slip or on a mooring? Maybe it will be good to start with engine failure , leading to a scenario where they have to sail the boat out into clear water? That separates the chaff from the wheat ,possibly giving your charachters some nautical skills advantage despite the handicaps you will create for them, blowing a sail, sailing over shoal ground with nasty tide rips and a rocky lee shore.....maybe a man-overboard is just to predictable but jibing a boat can be a dodgy experience.....it can be dangerous out there!

[Phil Y]

2 guys on an unfamiliar boat in a hurry could get into all sorts of trouble. I have a feeling they'll get stuck in irons trying to beat off that lee shore. Might try to start the motor to get her around, and a sheet carelessly left over the side will no doubt get wrapped around the prop. She might do an uncontrolled gybe,and depending how the main sheet is rigged, it might do some damage to one of them as it tears across the cockpit, perhaps dislocating a shoulder. If they've not properly tied the anchor down on deck that might slip overboard just when they least need it to do so. Anything not secure down below might come loose while,tacking, locker doors, cooking pans, stuff like that. Are they towing a dinghy? Ha ha.

[Osbert]

I was hoping I could get some advice on a problem I've been working on. I'm writing an adventure story in a mid century setting. In one chapter, two men escape from trouble on a 1930's racing yacht--a ketch or perhaps a yawl of about 65 to 75 feet. They know how to sail and could handle the boat for a pleasure cruise, but they are under crewed for a chase. Obviously, there's no modern automation to help with the rigging. Over the course of the escape they'll have to manage a variety of course changes through all points of sail. The weather is fair and the journey is short, but I'd like to engineer a few problems to build suspense.

How about they have experience in much smaller boats - say dinghy racing, but haven't ever handled a yacht, or at least have only been guests on one in very easy sailing, so they have no experience of how a large boat handles, the effect of momentum, long keel versus centreboard, equipment on an unfamiliar scale, different rig (e.g. lug or bermudan in dinghies, but gaff on the yawl), etc? That could introduce all sorts of interesting problems.

[Ian McColgin]

I disagree with slug about additional masts making more work. Granuaile at 20 tons, three masts and five sails was far more easily single handed in all evolutions, including anchoring and docking and reefing, than Marmalade with her mere 7 tons and only one sail.

Multiple sticks and rags allow the individual bits to be more manageable.

Speaking of managable, given the vintage, you can have these marconi rigged. Start adding gaffs to a ketch that size and you get handling problems that it sounds like you've not the experience to even imagine describing.

[rbgarr]

Here's a scenario that I can imagine happening with two yawls/ketches in a chase situation:

The lead boat has only two for crew: the guy on the helm has more experience than the one other crew member/compatriot.

The chasing boat has marginally more experienced sailors.

Both boats sailing out of harbor with all sail set trying to outrace each other, the chase boat closing slowly, both heading for a bold (cliffs) lee shore simply because there's more wind there than on the other offshore tack. The lead boat has a double head rig (club jib and jib above and outside on a masthead forestay). The chasing boat carries a single genoa.

As they approach the point where the lead boat must tack to clear the lee shore, the wind quite suddenly increases due to the effect of the cliffs and worsening weather. The wire jib halyard brake fails just as the skipper puts the helm down. The jib sags down the forestay, creating drag and real danger that they won't be able to tack successfully. The less experienced crew member must go forward to pull the sail down on deck and up out of the water where some of it has fallen. The bow is dipping into confused waves bouncing back from the cliff face into the ocean swells. He's in danger of being pulled overboard by the flogging, heavy, wet sail while the skipper struggles to maintain control and some headway and as far to weather as possible. Nearly exhausted, the crew successfully drags the jib aboard and collapses atop it. The skipper chooses his last good spot to tack and does so. It turns out the club jib, main and mizzen rig is better given the conditions.

The chasing boat carries on still gaining (faster now) but when they try to tack with the genoa, they miss stays, catch and rip the genoa from leech to luff on the spreader tip... and thus stuck in irons and confused seas, vanish into the spume at the base of the cliffs.

For examples of well written and accurately detailed chases on racing sailboats, see Sam Llewellyn's fiction.

[Paul Pless]

I wish the rest of the internet was as helpful as this forum.

yeah, we got it like that. . .

[gilberj]

I think, Slug the rig of the boat is a given. The Author has a ketch and a Yawl in his chase. No point talking about sloops being better. For short handed passages i'd prefer a good ketch or Yawl anyday, particularly in the size we are talking about, and the equipment we would have to make it workable on a boat from the 1930's sailing in the '50's...
We are most likely to be using manila rope for running rigging, though there was nylon rope and perhaps some early poly rope came into use about then. The halyards were likely wire as has been pointed out already.
We're the sails old. Natural fibre sails very noticeably stretched over time, needing recutting...the would still work adequately for a cruising boat, for many years, but would be less weatherly.

[slug]

Nothing wrong with a ketch.

Thier decks are cluttered and they carry alot of windage , but on the plus side when sailing downwind in the trades you strike the mizzen and carry a sun awning. Everyone loves ketches , a sun awning and cold beer.

[Ian McColgin]

Second rbgarr's remark about Sam Llewellyn's books. Also Bernard Cornwall's half dozen sailing novels. Both are excellet examples of how to have enough detail to satisfy sailors and not so much that you lose the farmers.

You are on the cusp of time regarding dacron/terylene. Nylon was a few years earlier but only useful for balooners and anchor rodes. However, dacron/terylene found a home on sailboats more rapidly than any other market. I recall dacron sails in our home fleet certainly before '55 though we didn't finally get away from cotton till '60 or so.

But given the size, no doubt wire halyards. Wire sheets were also used on some of the radical racers before WWI and right after but not on the vintage ketches and yawls that were attempting to supplant Mr. Alden's wonderful schooners racing to Bermuda. Anyway, you don't want to even think of the hazards of wire sheets.

Likely you'll have running backs. Highfield levers at that time were more used in England, I think. I've seen a few big divided rigs of the vintage you want with the levers but more have a tail on the runner with block and tackle. Some have a track along the deck with a block and tackle to pull it out firm.

G'luck

[Paul Pless]

Nothing wrong with a ketch.

'cept they're not schooners. . .

[Hwyl]

You could write in an argument as to whether they carry the mizzen to windward or not. This could be another thread, but I think the question as to whether the mizzen helps or not, depends on the design and tune of the boat. Interestingly, most of the people on here who are advocating for the mizzen sail Francis Herreschoff ketches. I know when my friend, Tommy ran LFH's Ticonnderoga for a couple of decades plus, he was an advocate of carrying the mizzen.

It would be nice if Bobby (Varadero) would jump in here, he has extensive experience in ketches.

[slug]

I sailed a swan 65 ketch for many years. At regattas we were faster upwind in smooth water and a mild breeze with the mizzen set.

The hassle of a ketch is the cluttered deck layout. Difficult to live with a small ketch...about 70 ft and above is best for a ketch.

[Ian McColgin]

The ketches and yawls I've sailed, ranging from LFH to Alden to William Garden to Olin Stevens not to mention stuff like the Freedom 40, all benefitted from carrying the mizzen to weather in most conditions.

In high winds if one is for whatever reason disinclined to reef, a ketch can sail quietly to weather on jib and mizzen but often without much power. Some ketches sail ok to weather with no mizzen up but others get a lee helm. All yawls sail any direction you'd like with the itzy bitzy zain in ze back down. But a yawl is usually a bit pointless going at all to weather on jib and mizzen.

One thing about the classics of the vintage you're looking at - most heel more than contemporary boats and are good with the rail well under and water breaking along the coach house. That would be over about 45 degrees.

[cappel]

I did have some famous yachts in mind. I was thinking the ketch would be based on the Lawley and Son built Karetina, also known as Errol Flynn's yacht, Sirocco (the second boat he owned by that name). Just over 75 ft, displacing 76k, max speed about 9 knots. The yawl would be based on the Sparkman and Stephens built schooner Santanna, which had been converted to a yawl by the time Bogart owned it. Her main was slightly undersized, but she performed credibly in races. 62' and displacing 50k. Not sure of her best speed, but probably a little less that Flynn's boat. I just read Larry Dudley's book on crewing this boat (nice little read, not a lot of technical information.)

Both are still sailing, although Santana is back to her original schooner configuration. (As you can probably guess, I'm an old movie fan.)There are lots of photo's of these two boats, but I need to sort them for the appropriate time period. There's also a home movie of Sirocco in 1965, a few years after Flynn's death. It mostly shows pretty girls and a guy operating the pump, unfortunately, but more experienced eyes may see more than mine-- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuCj5dz2NXU


Thanks to you all for the book recommendations. I love to do research, but if it spills onto the written page it puts people to sleep. I'll certainly check out Llewellyn and Cornwall for style and substance tips.


Chris

[Ian McColgin]

Good choises.

[Hwyl]

I've sailed Sirrocco, but can't remember much (Foxy's regatta) there were seriously underdressed ladies though.

Edit, I remember the engine was way forward and the prop shaft was really long, you could not really motorsail her, because the shaft would tend to bind as the boat flexed.

[cappel]

In answer to the crew question from Osbert, one of the men has experience crewing the ketch, the other has some sailing time in on smaller boats, so I can throw exposition into their dialogue if I need to.

Chris

[johnw]

If they're not worried about the other end of the voyage, they can slip the moorage or cut the anchor rode and sail away, which is good because getting the anchor up while handling the boat could be a challenge for two people. They'll raise the mizzen first, then the main, then the working jib. The Genoa jib would be too much to handle tacking.

[John B]

On a boat with two masts there is twice as much work because there are twice as many sails to handle.

a ketch can spread alot of sail area on a reach...they are fast and powerful when reaching.

upwind and downwing a ketch is nothing special.

its your guys need to make a fast getawy in thier ketch it will be a 5 sail reach in light air.


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I was on that one a couple of weeks ago , not sailing though ,unfortunately.

[willmarsh3]

I sail a ketch and can think of a couple of things happening in the story. First, if I try to run in a good breeze with the mizzen up she likes to suddenly round up and point up wind. The second is my mainsheet goes through a 4:1 ratio. I have had the block slip off the end of the track and it suddenly becomes a 1:1. On my boat which is 32' that is quite manageable but on a boat twice as long with only two men that might be a different story. Also have a few dirt dauber nests rain down on one guys head when they first hoist the sails because she hasn't been sailed in the last month.