Member
That last post got cut short. To continue, I know people who haul once a year and re do the bottom. They also have problems. I am sure that there are others that dont and they have MORE problems. But id copper sheathing is nto impossible on an older hull I may consider that.
Grant S
I wasnt suggesting that anyone was lazy about their bottom jobs, just that traditional wooden boat owners probably have a heightened awareness of the consequences of even a small breach in the antifouling.
Copper sounds good to me if it is a practical and affordable solution.
Grant S
I wasnt suggesting that anyone was lazy about their bottom jobs, just that traditional wooden boat owners probably have a heightened awareness of the consequences of even a small breach in the antifouling.
Copper sounds good to me if it is a practical and affordable solution.
Grant S
I wasnt suggesting that anyone was lazy about their bottom jobs, just that traditional wooden boat owners probably have a heightened awareness of the consequences of even a small breach in the antifouling.
Copper sounds good to me if it is a practical and affordable solution.
Member
Well, I guess it could be that because there are such terrible conditions down here that there are FEW traditional boat owners. The boats dont last 100 years like they do up north. AND of course you yankees have 4 months when you cant go boating so you might as well work on the boat...#8-) We southerners have the missfortune to have year around boating so dont have the down time for bottom jobs..#8-)
I still havent found anything on practical copper sheathing....OF AN OLD HULL...... I didnt have in my library ANY of the Wooden Boat issues that were sited in the archives.
Member
Well, I guess it could be that because there are such terrible conditions down here that there are FEW traditional boat owners. The boats dont last 100 years like they do up north. AND of course you yankees have 4 months when you cant go boating so you might as well work on the boat...#8-) We southerners have the missfortune to have year around boating so dont have the down time for bottom jobs..#8-)
I still havent found anything on practical copper sheathing....OF AN OLD HULL...... I didnt have in my library ANY of the Wooden Boat issues that were sited in the archives.
Member
Well, I guess it could be that because there are such terrible conditions down here that there are FEW traditional boat owners. The boats dont last 100 years like they do up north. AND of course you yankees have 4 months when you cant go boating so you might as well work on the boat...#8-) We southerners have the missfortune to have year around boating so dont have the down time for bottom jobs..#8-)
I still havent found anything on practical copper sheathing....OF AN OLD HULL...... I didnt have in my library ANY of the Wooden Boat issues that were sited in the archives.
Senior Member #4667
It's worth mentioning that the British kept a fleet of wooden, copper bottomed ships of the line and lesser boats in the Caribbean for ~200 years...
Copper plating a hull may reduce/remove the need to bottom coat, but it doesn't remove the need to haul and scrape the hull periodically.
Senior Member #4667
It's worth mentioning that the British kept a fleet of wooden, copper bottomed ships of the line and lesser boats in the Caribbean for ~200 years...
Copper plating a hull may reduce/remove the need to bottom coat, but it doesn't remove the need to haul and scrape the hull periodically.
Senior Member #4667
It's worth mentioning that the British kept a fleet of wooden, copper bottomed ships of the line and lesser boats in the Caribbean for ~200 years...
Copper plating a hull may reduce/remove the need to bottom coat, but it doesn't remove the need to haul and scrape the hull periodically.
Geezer #160something
I forget where I read it, but I read somewhere in the last few months that C-flex may no longer be available. There was a yard in Gulfport or Biloxi that raved about covering hulls with 3M-5200 and C-flex set in epoxy resin. Sounds scary and expensive. If C-flex went kaput that kills that idea. A GOOGLE search of C-flex should at least yield a phone number to verify the current supply issue.
Wayne
In the Swamp.
Geezer #160something
I forget where I read it, but I read somewhere in the last few months that C-flex may no longer be available. There was a yard in Gulfport or Biloxi that raved about covering hulls with 3M-5200 and C-flex set in epoxy resin. Sounds scary and expensive. If C-flex went kaput that kills that idea. A GOOGLE search of C-flex should at least yield a phone number to verify the current supply issue.
Wayne
In the Swamp.
Geezer #160something
I forget where I read it, but I read somewhere in the last few months that C-flex may no longer be available. There was a yard in Gulfport or Biloxi that raved about covering hulls with 3M-5200 and C-flex set in epoxy resin. Sounds scary and expensive. If C-flex went kaput that kills that idea. A GOOGLE search of C-flex should at least yield a phone number to verify the current supply issue.
Wayne
In the Swamp.
Member
What is the SeaFlex system??
In a local boat yard they do something that I think might be a reasonable thing since it is removable if need be. They lay fibreglass cloth into a bed of 3M 5200 that is trowled down smooth and then the cloth is covered with resin. They do this to refurbish wooden shrimp boats.
Member
What is the SeaFlex system??
In a local boat yard they do something that I think might be a reasonable thing since it is removable if need be. They lay fibreglass cloth into a bed of 3M 5200 that is trowled down smooth and then the cloth is covered with resin. They do this to refurbish wooden shrimp boats.
Member
What is the SeaFlex system??
In a local boat yard they do something that I think might be a reasonable thing since it is removable if need be. They lay fibreglass cloth into a bed of 3M 5200 that is trowled down smooth and then the cloth is covered with resin. They do this to refurbish wooden shrimp boats.
Senior Member
I know this may sound silly and maybe a little old school but I used to tarpon fish off of a few chris crafts in Boca Grande here in FL. They used to pull the boats out every 2 yrs for bottom paint.They lived in the water for the rest of the time. The owner of one used to add cayenne pepper to his bottom paint. I never remember him ever complaining of parasite damage. I know that every so often he would in the bright of the day near a sand bar would go overboard with mask and snorkel to inspect everything under. He claimed that when using the pepper it bought him a few extra months before any barnacles or other growth would appear.
Senior Member
I know this may sound silly and maybe a little old school but I used to tarpon fish off of a few chris crafts in Boca Grande here in FL. They used to pull the boats out every 2 yrs for bottom paint.They lived in the water for the rest of the time. The owner of one used to add cayenne pepper to his bottom paint. I never remember him ever complaining of parasite damage. I know that every so often he would in the bright of the day near a sand bar would go overboard with mask and snorkel to inspect everything under. He claimed that when using the pepper it bought him a few extra months before any barnacles or other growth would appear.
Senior Member
I know this may sound silly and maybe a little old school but I used to tarpon fish off of a few chris crafts in Boca Grande here in FL. They used to pull the boats out every 2 yrs for bottom paint.They lived in the water for the rest of the time. The owner of one used to add cayenne pepper to his bottom paint. I never remember him ever complaining of parasite damage. I know that every so often he would in the bright of the day near a sand bar would go overboard with mask and snorkel to inspect everything under. He claimed that when using the pepper it bought him a few extra months before any barnacles or other growth would appear.
Senior Member
My recollection of the articles published in wooden boat on copper bottoming a hull is that they were all older boats. I would be surprised if you could not copper sheath the bottom of an older boat. You do need to make sure everything is in good shape before you applying the copper because you don't want to get it on there and then find out that a plank needs to come off.
Of course copper sheating does not address the issue that your climate is pretty much paradise as far as rot is concerned...
Senior Member
My recollection of the articles published in wooden boat on copper bottoming a hull is that they were all older boats. I would be surprised if you could not copper sheath the bottom of an older boat. You do need to make sure everything is in good shape before you applying the copper because you don't want to get it on there and then find out that a plank needs to come off.
Of course copper sheating does not address the issue that your climate is pretty much paradise as far as rot is concerned...
Senior Member
My recollection of the articles published in wooden boat on copper bottoming a hull is that they were all older boats. I would be surprised if you could not copper sheath the bottom of an older boat. You do need to make sure everything is in good shape before you applying the copper because you don't want to get it on there and then find out that a plank needs to come off.
Of course copper sheating does not address the issue that your climate is pretty much paradise as far as rot is concerned...
Member
Dont know if the question was directed at me or not, because I thought I had already made it clear that I wanted to own a classic wooden yacht. But it did not want to bring one south if it would just result in its "death by vermin."
I owned a 12' wooden sloop and a 32' wooden sloop at different times in the past. BUT these were in fresh water where we had neither worms nor barnacles, only "grass". The biggest worry then was dry rot from the top. The 12' sloop came out of the water after use so it did not even have antifouling paint. Years after I sold the 32' Sloop it sank in its slip because the new owner was not concerned enough to even pump the rain water out of the bilge. It rotted through at the waterline and sank in 300' of water where it still sits.
As to my usage, I will not be a permanent live aboard but will travel with it for several months of the year when I want to travel north in the summer to escape our southern summers. During that period I will be a livaboard. The rest of the year it will be used for local cruises on the Texas coast. We have a year round boating season so it will only be out of the water for a couple of weeks each year for bottom paint and other bottom maintenance probably in February, our worst month for boating.
No, I have no specific boat in mind. BUT the boat I will buy will have a near perfect bottom or I wont buy it. Thus if there is an accepted way to protect a wood bottom (such as copper sheathing or fiberglass sheathing) it must be a method that can be applied over an OLD construction wood bottom. NOT NEW Construction.
I will repeat, I just dont want to destroy a beautiful classic boat that could live another 100 years up north by moving it south just for my imediate pleasure. If I can move it south but still preserve it from destruction by terado and the various wood eating bugs in our warm waters then I will consider the purchase of a classic wood yacht. If I cant have both then I will forget the whole idea. I will not accept the fact that in 20 years I may be dead so "who cares". The people who will care will still be alive and I wouldnt want to be blamed, even after death, for destroying a classic boat.
Member
Dont know if the question was directed at me or not, because I thought I had already made it clear that I wanted to own a classic wooden yacht. But it did not want to bring one south if it would just result in its "death by vermin."
I owned a 12' wooden sloop and a 32' wooden sloop at different times in the past. BUT these were in fresh water where we had neither worms nor barnacles, only "grass". The biggest worry then was dry rot from the top. The 12' sloop came out of the water after use so it did not even have antifouling paint. Years after I sold the 32' Sloop it sank in its slip because the new owner was not concerned enough to even pump the rain water out of the bilge. It rotted through at the waterline and sank in 300' of water where it still sits.
As to my usage, I will not be a permanent live aboard but will travel with it for several months of the year when I want to travel north in the summer to escape our southern summers. During that period I will be a livaboard. The rest of the year it will be used for local cruises on the Texas coast. We have a year round boating season so it will only be out of the water for a couple of weeks each year for bottom paint and other bottom maintenance probably in February, our worst month for boating.
No, I have no specific boat in mind. BUT the boat I will buy will have a near perfect bottom or I wont buy it. Thus if there is an accepted way to protect a wood bottom (such as copper sheathing or fiberglass sheathing) it must be a method that can be applied over an OLD construction wood bottom. NOT NEW Construction.
I will repeat, I just dont want to destroy a beautiful classic boat that could live another 100 years up north by moving it south just for my imediate pleasure. If I can move it south but still preserve it from destruction by terado and the various wood eating bugs in our warm waters then I will consider the purchase of a classic wood yacht. If I cant have both then I will forget the whole idea. I will not accept the fact that in 20 years I may be dead so "who cares". The people who will care will still be alive and I wouldnt want to be blamed, even after death, for destroying a classic boat.
Member
Dont know if the question was directed at me or not, because I thought I had already made it clear that I wanted to own a classic wooden yacht. But it did not want to bring one south if it would just result in its "death by vermin."
I owned a 12' wooden sloop and a 32' wooden sloop at different times in the past. BUT these were in fresh water where we had neither worms nor barnacles, only "grass". The biggest worry then was dry rot from the top. The 12' sloop came out of the water after use so it did not even have antifouling paint. Years after I sold the 32' Sloop it sank in its slip because the new owner was not concerned enough to even pump the rain water out of the bilge. It rotted through at the waterline and sank in 300' of water where it still sits.
As to my usage, I will not be a permanent live aboard but will travel with it for several months of the year when I want to travel north in the summer to escape our southern summers. During that period I will be a livaboard. The rest of the year it will be used for local cruises on the Texas coast. We have a year round boating season so it will only be out of the water for a couple of weeks each year for bottom paint and other bottom maintenance probably in February, our worst month for boating.
No, I have no specific boat in mind. BUT the boat I will buy will have a near perfect bottom or I wont buy it. Thus if there is an accepted way to protect a wood bottom (such as copper sheathing or fiberglass sheathing) it must be a method that can be applied over an OLD construction wood bottom. NOT NEW Construction.
I will repeat, I just dont want to destroy a beautiful classic boat that could live another 100 years up north by moving it south just for my imediate pleasure. If I can move it south but still preserve it from destruction by terado and the various wood eating bugs in our warm waters then I will consider the purchase of a classic wood yacht. If I cant have both then I will forget the whole idea. I will not accept the fact that in 20 years I may be dead so "who cares". The people who will care will still be alive and I wouldnt want to be blamed, even after death, for destroying a classic boat.
Geezer #160something
More than you wanted to know about C-flex.
Developed/invented in New Orleans way back when. Original use: planking one-off fiberglass boats. Later use: over 3M 5200 and under resin to cover old wooden boats.
Description and uses: Boatbuilding Manual, 4th Edition, Robert M. Steward, page 62.
C-flex Restoration
GOOGLE knows more.
Dated source:
Seeman Fiberglass, Inc.
6117 river Road
Harahan, LA 70213
Voice: 800-344-2205
Fax: 504-738-6014
That's all, Folks, Marion out.
Wayne
In the Swamp.
[ 06-20-2005, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
Geezer #160something
More than you wanted to know about C-flex.
Developed/invented in New Orleans way back when. Original use: planking one-off fiberglass boats. Later use: over 3M 5200 and under resin to cover old wooden boats.
Description and uses: Boatbuilding Manual, 4th Edition, Robert M. Steward, page 62.
C-flex Restoration
GOOGLE knows more.
Dated source:
Seeman Fiberglass, Inc.
6117 river Road
Harahan, LA 70213
Voice: 800-344-2205
Fax: 504-738-6014
That's all, Folks, Marion out.
Wayne
In the Swamp.
[ 06-20-2005, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
Geezer #160something
More than you wanted to know about C-flex.
Developed/invented in New Orleans way back when. Original use: planking one-off fiberglass boats. Later use: over 3M 5200 and under resin to cover old wooden boats.
Description and uses: Boatbuilding Manual, 4th Edition, Robert M. Steward, page 62.
C-flex Restoration
GOOGLE knows more.
Dated source:
Seeman Fiberglass, Inc.
6117 river Road
Harahan, LA 70213
Voice: 800-344-2205
Fax: 504-738-6014
That's all, Folks, Marion out.
Wayne
In the Swamp.
[ 06-20-2005, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]
Senior Member
Looking around I found this maybe it will help.....
From...
http://www.star-distributing.com/how.../drybilge.html
Dry Bilges in an old wooden boat, it can be done.©
Written by: Steve Ray
Traditional boat building relies upon the swelling of wood to create a watertight seam. This has been the method used for ages and is still in use today. The use of seam compound (caulk) is to retard the flow of water and provide extra plugging of the space between the planks.
The heyday of wooden yacht construction was in the first half of the 20th century. During this time lumber was available in the quantity and quality needed for yacht construction. Wealthy individuals had yachts constructed and spared no expense in doing so. The great yacht designers of the time were using the latest materials and construction techniques of that era. Even the finest built yachts were not expected to survive for more than twenty years with out major rework. These boats were sold off before the major work was needed. The wealthy were then on to better and newer yachts. At this time the not so wealthy was able to own these yachts. Some did the necessary rework although most just patched things up.
Here we are in the beginning of the 21st century and quite a few of these yachts are still surviving. Most have been destroyed. Surviving wooden boats are seeing a new resurgence of interest. Again the wealthy are buying up boats with a prestigious history and are spending big money to restore them. The not so wealthy are taking on project boats to restore and use.
Many of these boats have the original planking. The planking is not as good as it originally was. Repeated drying and swelling (due to dry storage) puts a strain on fastenings and seams. The wood fibers surrounding fasteners tend to crush and the hole becomes oblong. Water enters this space and follows the open-end grain. The same happens along the edges of the seam. Over time the planks loose their ability to swell back to the tightness they once had. These planks are softer, and less dense after being immersed in water for half a century. They do not seem to be rotted but are porous. Salt in the water pickles the wood and retards decay. What is lost is density due to decay of the soft part of the wood cell. Salt crystals in the bilge above the bilge water line can often identify waterlogged wood. Sweating of the planks often causes water in the bilge as much as leaky seams can.
The widespread repair method of this situation is the wholesale replacement of the planking. Once again deep pockets are needed for this adventure. There is an alternative: stopping water from entering the planks in the first place. This will allow stabilization of the wood and eliminate the need for swelling. Modern coating technology allows us to breath new life into old boats.
Procedure
First and foremost remove all paint from the wood. For this operation I suggest using Aqua Strip or Ultra Strip for fast paint removal. These products are manufactured by Back to Nature Products and feature no solvents or caustics, no flammability, and are non-toxic. Best of all they are easily washed off with water, leave no residue and will not damage wood or gelcoat. Ultra Strip works faster but is more expensive. If you have the time the Aqua Strip will work fine. Both products soften all of the paint layers in one pass for easy removal.
Once all of the paint has been removed, reef the caulk out from the seams between the planks. A screwdriver with the blade bent 90° can make a reefing hook tool. The blade is pulled (or tapped) along the seam. Heat the rod red hot before bending. The best screwdriver for this purpose has the metal incorporated as part of the handle. These screwdrivers are becoming rare. Remove a few fasteners in different parts of the hull and check for overall condition. This is the best time for refastening the hull if it has not been refastened in the last 20 years. Should the fasteners indicate deterioration, replace.
At this point the seams are open and the wood is bare. It is time for restoration. Use sandpaper on the seams to clean out any remaining caulking compound. Taper a paint stirrer along its long edge and cover with sticky back sand paper to make a seam-sanding tool. Slide along the inside of the seam and change paper often. If any caulking cotton has come out replace. Once the seams are clean brush in enough Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer™ (CPES™) to soak the wood in the seam. Allow this to dry overnight. The CPES will condition the wood so as to hold the new caulking material.
The use of CPES replaces red lead paint. Traditionally red lead was so useful due to the lead acting as an astringent on the wood surface. This poisoning of the wood retarded wood decay. CPES does this a different way. The ability to prevent rot is due to the fact that CPES coats the cell walls without clogging the tubular structure of the wood cell. This microscopically porous surface is fine enough to prevent bacteria from entering the wood while allowing the much smaller water molecules (moisture) to transport in and out of the wood. Any bacteria or mold spores in the wood are encapsulated by the epoxy and rendered incapable of growing. The wood is indigestible therefore rot cannot progress. Insects or marine borers cannot eat it either. Another benefit of the use of CPES is its ability to "glue" the paint to the wood. When paint is applied to semi-cured CPES, a molecular bond is created when the CPES fully cures under the paint layer. Old dried out lumber will absorb a lot of CPES much the same way it will absorb water. This allows restoration of old and mildly decayed wood. In this instance CPES is being used to bond the seam material to the wood as well as paint.
Now is the time to pay the seams with polysulfide caulking compound. I advise against using 3M-5200 for seams. It is way too adhesive. The whole idea of this procedure is to enable future maintenance. When used in planking seams, the 5200 will glue the wood together so well that destruction of the plank is necessary for removal. Filling the seam to stop water flow is the only necessity and so low adhesive polysulfide caulk is preferred. When replacing a plank (in the future) slicing the caulk with a razor knife is all that is needed to allow reefing. Polysulfide paste is available for applying with putty knife to seams overhead or vertical surfaces.
At this point the seams are caulked and allowed to fully cure. Where there are minor divots or missing wood, coat with CPES and follow with Fill-it to bring flush. Sand the entire hull until smooth. Once sanded apply a minimum of two coats of CPES to the bare wood. Keep applying the CPES until the will not soak up any more. CPES will restore the density of the wood and allow top coatings to adhere to the wood.
The main desire is the prevention of water entering the wood. If water does not enter the wood, than the wood cannot become water logged. CPES will not by itself stop moisture penetration. High Build Epoxy Paint will stop moisture. After allowing the solvents to evaporate from the CPES (usually overnight) apply three coats of High Build Epoxy Paint to a final thickness of 10 mils. Follow manufacturers instructions as to recoat time.
Finish off with Epaint brand of environmentally friendly antifouling paint.
(cheap plug
In the bilge, coat with CPES and a few coats of bilge paint. The use of bilge paint is recommended since it will allow moisture in the wood to evaporate out and prevent any fuel or oil from entering the wood. The use of epoxy paint in bilges is not recommend since moisture will be trapped in the wood.
The net result of this paint schedule is to align the moisture content of the wood with the air instead of the water. The lower the moisture content of the wood, the more rot resistance wood has. The use of polysulfide caulk and epoxy paint eliminates the necessity of the planks to swell creating a watertight seal. By eliminating the swell / dry cycle there will be much less stress on the fasteners and ribs and the wood will last longer.
The difference of this method over fiberglassing is the ability to rework. The paint can be stripped off and planking replaced or refastened every 20 years or when necessary. Once fiberglass is on the wood surface, it is practically impossible to repair any problems in the wood underneath. Additionally if the fiberglass is insufficiently thick, play in the boat (guaranteed to happen) will induce cracking along the seams allowing water into the wood underneath. I call this the Tupperware syndrome. When food in Tupperware is placed into a refrigerator and left there long enough, the food will rot. A boat fiberglassed on the outside is exactly the same thing.
The author, Steve Ray, is President of Star Distributing and has over 10 years of experience in classic boat restoration.
epaint®, CPES™, Fill-It™, Polysulfide Caulk and Paste, High Build Epoxy Paint™ and Back to Nature® Marine products listed in this restoration guide are available from:
STAR Distributing
P.O. Box 165
West Mystic, CT 06355 (860) 245 3658
Toll free866) 345-3658
www.star-distributing.com
email:steve@star-distributing.com
Senior Member
Looking around I found this maybe it will help.....
From...
http://www.star-distributing.com/how.../drybilge.html
Dry Bilges in an old wooden boat, it can be done.©
Written by: Steve Ray
Traditional boat building relies upon the swelling of wood to create a watertight seam. This has been the method used for ages and is still in use today. The use of seam compound (caulk) is to retard the flow of water and provide extra plugging of the space between the planks.
The heyday of wooden yacht construction was in the first half of the 20th century. During this time lumber was available in the quantity and quality needed for yacht construction. Wealthy individuals had yachts constructed and spared no expense in doing so. The great yacht designers of the time were using the latest materials and construction techniques of that era. Even the finest built yachts were not expected to survive for more than twenty years with out major rework. These boats were sold off before the major work was needed. The wealthy were then on to better and newer yachts. At this time the not so wealthy was able to own these yachts. Some did the necessary rework although most just patched things up.
Here we are in the beginning of the 21st century and quite a few of these yachts are still surviving. Most have been destroyed. Surviving wooden boats are seeing a new resurgence of interest. Again the wealthy are buying up boats with a prestigious history and are spending big money to restore them. The not so wealthy are taking on project boats to restore and use.
Many of these boats have the original planking. The planking is not as good as it originally was. Repeated drying and swelling (due to dry storage) puts a strain on fastenings and seams. The wood fibers surrounding fasteners tend to crush and the hole becomes oblong. Water enters this space and follows the open-end grain. The same happens along the edges of the seam. Over time the planks loose their ability to swell back to the tightness they once had. These planks are softer, and less dense after being immersed in water for half a century. They do not seem to be rotted but are porous. Salt in the water pickles the wood and retards decay. What is lost is density due to decay of the soft part of the wood cell. Salt crystals in the bilge above the bilge water line can often identify waterlogged wood. Sweating of the planks often causes water in the bilge as much as leaky seams can.
The widespread repair method of this situation is the wholesale replacement of the planking. Once again deep pockets are needed for this adventure. There is an alternative: stopping water from entering the planks in the first place. This will allow stabilization of the wood and eliminate the need for swelling. Modern coating technology allows us to breath new life into old boats.
Procedure
First and foremost remove all paint from the wood. For this operation I suggest using Aqua Strip or Ultra Strip for fast paint removal. These products are manufactured by Back to Nature Products and feature no solvents or caustics, no flammability, and are non-toxic. Best of all they are easily washed off with water, leave no residue and will not damage wood or gelcoat. Ultra Strip works faster but is more expensive. If you have the time the Aqua Strip will work fine. Both products soften all of the paint layers in one pass for easy removal.
Once all of the paint has been removed, reef the caulk out from the seams between the planks. A screwdriver with the blade bent 90° can make a reefing hook tool. The blade is pulled (or tapped) along the seam. Heat the rod red hot before bending. The best screwdriver for this purpose has the metal incorporated as part of the handle. These screwdrivers are becoming rare. Remove a few fasteners in different parts of the hull and check for overall condition. This is the best time for refastening the hull if it has not been refastened in the last 20 years. Should the fasteners indicate deterioration, replace.
At this point the seams are open and the wood is bare. It is time for restoration. Use sandpaper on the seams to clean out any remaining caulking compound. Taper a paint stirrer along its long edge and cover with sticky back sand paper to make a seam-sanding tool. Slide along the inside of the seam and change paper often. If any caulking cotton has come out replace. Once the seams are clean brush in enough Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer™ (CPES™) to soak the wood in the seam. Allow this to dry overnight. The CPES will condition the wood so as to hold the new caulking material.
The use of CPES replaces red lead paint. Traditionally red lead was so useful due to the lead acting as an astringent on the wood surface. This poisoning of the wood retarded wood decay. CPES does this a different way. The ability to prevent rot is due to the fact that CPES coats the cell walls without clogging the tubular structure of the wood cell. This microscopically porous surface is fine enough to prevent bacteria from entering the wood while allowing the much smaller water molecules (moisture) to transport in and out of the wood. Any bacteria or mold spores in the wood are encapsulated by the epoxy and rendered incapable of growing. The wood is indigestible therefore rot cannot progress. Insects or marine borers cannot eat it either. Another benefit of the use of CPES is its ability to "glue" the paint to the wood. When paint is applied to semi-cured CPES, a molecular bond is created when the CPES fully cures under the paint layer. Old dried out lumber will absorb a lot of CPES much the same way it will absorb water. This allows restoration of old and mildly decayed wood. In this instance CPES is being used to bond the seam material to the wood as well as paint.
Now is the time to pay the seams with polysulfide caulking compound. I advise against using 3M-5200 for seams. It is way too adhesive. The whole idea of this procedure is to enable future maintenance. When used in planking seams, the 5200 will glue the wood together so well that destruction of the plank is necessary for removal. Filling the seam to stop water flow is the only necessity and so low adhesive polysulfide caulk is preferred. When replacing a plank (in the future) slicing the caulk with a razor knife is all that is needed to allow reefing. Polysulfide paste is available for applying with putty knife to seams overhead or vertical surfaces.
At this point the seams are caulked and allowed to fully cure. Where there are minor divots or missing wood, coat with CPES and follow with Fill-it to bring flush. Sand the entire hull until smooth. Once sanded apply a minimum of two coats of CPES to the bare wood. Keep applying the CPES until the will not soak up any more. CPES will restore the density of the wood and allow top coatings to adhere to the wood.
The main desire is the prevention of water entering the wood. If water does not enter the wood, than the wood cannot become water logged. CPES will not by itself stop moisture penetration. High Build Epoxy Paint will stop moisture. After allowing the solvents to evaporate from the CPES (usually overnight) apply three coats of High Build Epoxy Paint to a final thickness of 10 mils. Follow manufacturers instructions as to recoat time.
Finish off with Epaint brand of environmentally friendly antifouling paint.
(cheap plug
In the bilge, coat with CPES and a few coats of bilge paint. The use of bilge paint is recommended since it will allow moisture in the wood to evaporate out and prevent any fuel or oil from entering the wood. The use of epoxy paint in bilges is not recommend since moisture will be trapped in the wood.
The net result of this paint schedule is to align the moisture content of the wood with the air instead of the water. The lower the moisture content of the wood, the more rot resistance wood has. The use of polysulfide caulk and epoxy paint eliminates the necessity of the planks to swell creating a watertight seal. By eliminating the swell / dry cycle there will be much less stress on the fasteners and ribs and the wood will last longer.
The difference of this method over fiberglassing is the ability to rework. The paint can be stripped off and planking replaced or refastened every 20 years or when necessary. Once fiberglass is on the wood surface, it is practically impossible to repair any problems in the wood underneath. Additionally if the fiberglass is insufficiently thick, play in the boat (guaranteed to happen) will induce cracking along the seams allowing water into the wood underneath. I call this the Tupperware syndrome. When food in Tupperware is placed into a refrigerator and left there long enough, the food will rot. A boat fiberglassed on the outside is exactly the same thing.
The author, Steve Ray, is President of Star Distributing and has over 10 years of experience in classic boat restoration.
epaint®, CPES™, Fill-It™, Polysulfide Caulk and Paste, High Build Epoxy Paint™ and Back to Nature® Marine products listed in this restoration guide are available from:
STAR Distributing
P.O. Box 165
West Mystic, CT 06355 (860) 245 3658
Toll free
www.star-distributing.com
email:steve@star-distributing.com
Senior Member
Looking around I found this maybe it will help.....
From...
http://www.star-distributing.com/how.../drybilge.html
Dry Bilges in an old wooden boat, it can be done.©
Written by: Steve Ray
Traditional boat building relies upon the swelling of wood to create a watertight seam. This has been the method used for ages and is still in use today. The use of seam compound (caulk) is to retard the flow of water and provide extra plugging of the space between the planks.
The heyday of wooden yacht construction was in the first half of the 20th century. During this time lumber was available in the quantity and quality needed for yacht construction. Wealthy individuals had yachts constructed and spared no expense in doing so. The great yacht designers of the time were using the latest materials and construction techniques of that era. Even the finest built yachts were not expected to survive for more than twenty years with out major rework. These boats were sold off before the major work was needed. The wealthy were then on to better and newer yachts. At this time the not so wealthy was able to own these yachts. Some did the necessary rework although most just patched things up.
Here we are in the beginning of the 21st century and quite a few of these yachts are still surviving. Most have been destroyed. Surviving wooden boats are seeing a new resurgence of interest. Again the wealthy are buying up boats with a prestigious history and are spending big money to restore them. The not so wealthy are taking on project boats to restore and use.
Many of these boats have the original planking. The planking is not as good as it originally was. Repeated drying and swelling (due to dry storage) puts a strain on fastenings and seams. The wood fibers surrounding fasteners tend to crush and the hole becomes oblong. Water enters this space and follows the open-end grain. The same happens along the edges of the seam. Over time the planks loose their ability to swell back to the tightness they once had. These planks are softer, and less dense after being immersed in water for half a century. They do not seem to be rotted but are porous. Salt in the water pickles the wood and retards decay. What is lost is density due to decay of the soft part of the wood cell. Salt crystals in the bilge above the bilge water line can often identify waterlogged wood. Sweating of the planks often causes water in the bilge as much as leaky seams can.
The widespread repair method of this situation is the wholesale replacement of the planking. Once again deep pockets are needed for this adventure. There is an alternative: stopping water from entering the planks in the first place. This will allow stabilization of the wood and eliminate the need for swelling. Modern coating technology allows us to breath new life into old boats.
Procedure
First and foremost remove all paint from the wood. For this operation I suggest using Aqua Strip or Ultra Strip for fast paint removal. These products are manufactured by Back to Nature Products and feature no solvents or caustics, no flammability, and are non-toxic. Best of all they are easily washed off with water, leave no residue and will not damage wood or gelcoat. Ultra Strip works faster but is more expensive. If you have the time the Aqua Strip will work fine. Both products soften all of the paint layers in one pass for easy removal.
Once all of the paint has been removed, reef the caulk out from the seams between the planks. A screwdriver with the blade bent 90° can make a reefing hook tool. The blade is pulled (or tapped) along the seam. Heat the rod red hot before bending. The best screwdriver for this purpose has the metal incorporated as part of the handle. These screwdrivers are becoming rare. Remove a few fasteners in different parts of the hull and check for overall condition. This is the best time for refastening the hull if it has not been refastened in the last 20 years. Should the fasteners indicate deterioration, replace.
At this point the seams are open and the wood is bare. It is time for restoration. Use sandpaper on the seams to clean out any remaining caulking compound. Taper a paint stirrer along its long edge and cover with sticky back sand paper to make a seam-sanding tool. Slide along the inside of the seam and change paper often. If any caulking cotton has come out replace. Once the seams are clean brush in enough Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer™ (CPES™) to soak the wood in the seam. Allow this to dry overnight. The CPES will condition the wood so as to hold the new caulking material.
The use of CPES replaces red lead paint. Traditionally red lead was so useful due to the lead acting as an astringent on the wood surface. This poisoning of the wood retarded wood decay. CPES does this a different way. The ability to prevent rot is due to the fact that CPES coats the cell walls without clogging the tubular structure of the wood cell. This microscopically porous surface is fine enough to prevent bacteria from entering the wood while allowing the much smaller water molecules (moisture) to transport in and out of the wood. Any bacteria or mold spores in the wood are encapsulated by the epoxy and rendered incapable of growing. The wood is indigestible therefore rot cannot progress. Insects or marine borers cannot eat it either. Another benefit of the use of CPES is its ability to "glue" the paint to the wood. When paint is applied to semi-cured CPES, a molecular bond is created when the CPES fully cures under the paint layer. Old dried out lumber will absorb a lot of CPES much the same way it will absorb water. This allows restoration of old and mildly decayed wood. In this instance CPES is being used to bond the seam material to the wood as well as paint.
Now is the time to pay the seams with polysulfide caulking compound. I advise against using 3M-5200 for seams. It is way too adhesive. The whole idea of this procedure is to enable future maintenance. When used in planking seams, the 5200 will glue the wood together so well that destruction of the plank is necessary for removal. Filling the seam to stop water flow is the only necessity and so low adhesive polysulfide caulk is preferred. When replacing a plank (in the future) slicing the caulk with a razor knife is all that is needed to allow reefing. Polysulfide paste is available for applying with putty knife to seams overhead or vertical surfaces.
At this point the seams are caulked and allowed to fully cure. Where there are minor divots or missing wood, coat with CPES and follow with Fill-it to bring flush. Sand the entire hull until smooth. Once sanded apply a minimum of two coats of CPES to the bare wood. Keep applying the CPES until the will not soak up any more. CPES will restore the density of the wood and allow top coatings to adhere to the wood.
The main desire is the prevention of water entering the wood. If water does not enter the wood, than the wood cannot become water logged. CPES will not by itself stop moisture penetration. High Build Epoxy Paint will stop moisture. After allowing the solvents to evaporate from the CPES (usually overnight) apply three coats of High Build Epoxy Paint to a final thickness of 10 mils. Follow manufacturers instructions as to recoat time.
Finish off with Epaint brand of environmentally friendly antifouling paint.
(cheap plug
In the bilge, coat with CPES and a few coats of bilge paint. The use of bilge paint is recommended since it will allow moisture in the wood to evaporate out and prevent any fuel or oil from entering the wood. The use of epoxy paint in bilges is not recommend since moisture will be trapped in the wood.
The net result of this paint schedule is to align the moisture content of the wood with the air instead of the water. The lower the moisture content of the wood, the more rot resistance wood has. The use of polysulfide caulk and epoxy paint eliminates the necessity of the planks to swell creating a watertight seal. By eliminating the swell / dry cycle there will be much less stress on the fasteners and ribs and the wood will last longer.
The difference of this method over fiberglassing is the ability to rework. The paint can be stripped off and planking replaced or refastened every 20 years or when necessary. Once fiberglass is on the wood surface, it is practically impossible to repair any problems in the wood underneath. Additionally if the fiberglass is insufficiently thick, play in the boat (guaranteed to happen) will induce cracking along the seams allowing water into the wood underneath. I call this the Tupperware syndrome. When food in Tupperware is placed into a refrigerator and left there long enough, the food will rot. A boat fiberglassed on the outside is exactly the same thing.
The author, Steve Ray, is President of Star Distributing and has over 10 years of experience in classic boat restoration.
epaint®, CPES™, Fill-It™, Polysulfide Caulk and Paste, High Build Epoxy Paint™ and Back to Nature® Marine products listed in this restoration guide are available from:
STAR Distributing
P.O. Box 165
West Mystic, CT 06355 (860) 245 3658
Toll free
www.star-distributing.com
email:steve@star-distributing.com
Geezer #160something
Shop a lot before buying C.P.E.S. on the internet. Smith has distributors all over, usually full service paint stores. The local prices can beat the internet prices by double digits.
Wayne
In the Swamp.
Geezer #160something
Shop a lot before buying C.P.E.S. on the internet. Smith has distributors all over, usually full service paint stores. The local prices can beat the internet prices by double digits.
Wayne
In the Swamp.
Geezer #160something
Shop a lot before buying C.P.E.S. on the internet. Smith has distributors all over, usually full service paint stores. The local prices can beat the internet prices by double digits.
Wayne
In the Swamp.
Member
Thanks for the comments. It is encouraging to know that you dont see any problem, beyond the normal, with owning a wooden boat in the tropics.
I would not even entertain the idea of purchasing ANY boay without both an engine survey and a hull survey by a professional (though, not one recommended by the seller..#8-) BUT...even after a suevey one has to do their OWN survey as I have found the professionals ARE NOT PERFECT. My last survey was a total disaster when I bought Millennium Falcon. Then when I sold it a surveyor also made a bad survey by telling a prospective buyer things that were just not true and that I could demonstrate to be false. So while I will use a surveyor, two sets of eyes are better than one, I dont trust them completely.
As to the marina accepting my boat, I are the marina. Of course I will accept the boat.
Member
Thanks for the comments. It is encouraging to know that you dont see any problem, beyond the normal, with owning a wooden boat in the tropics.
I would not even entertain the idea of purchasing ANY boay without both an engine survey and a hull survey by a professional (though, not one recommended by the seller..#8-) BUT...even after a suevey one has to do their OWN survey as I have found the professionals ARE NOT PERFECT. My last survey was a total disaster when I bought Millennium Falcon. Then when I sold it a surveyor also made a bad survey by telling a prospective buyer things that were just not true and that I could demonstrate to be false. So while I will use a surveyor, two sets of eyes are better than one, I dont trust them completely.
As to the marina accepting my boat, I are the marina. Of course I will accept the boat.
Member
Thanks for the comments. It is encouraging to know that you dont see any problem, beyond the normal, with owning a wooden boat in the tropics.
I would not even entertain the idea of purchasing ANY boay without both an engine survey and a hull survey by a professional (though, not one recommended by the seller..#8-) BUT...even after a suevey one has to do their OWN survey as I have found the professionals ARE NOT PERFECT. My last survey was a total disaster when I bought Millennium Falcon. Then when I sold it a surveyor also made a bad survey by telling a prospective buyer things that were just not true and that I could demonstrate to be false. So while I will use a surveyor, two sets of eyes are better than one, I dont trust them completely.
As to the marina accepting my boat, I are the marina. Of course I will accept the boat.
Geezer #160something
Good for you!Originally posted by Millennium Falcon:
...As to the marina accepting my boat, I are the marina. Of course I will accept the boat.
Wayne
In the Swamp.
Geezer #160something
Good for you!Originally posted by Millennium Falcon:
...As to the marina accepting my boat, I are the marina. Of course I will accept the boat.
Wayne
In the Swamp.
Geezer #160something
Good for you!Originally posted by Millennium Falcon:
...As to the marina accepting my boat, I are the marina. Of course I will accept the boat.
Wayne
In the Swamp.
Member
Maybe I should clarify....I own a property that has a 75' bulkhead on a 6' deep x 90' wide canal that leads directly into the ICW. When I bought my house on the top of a sand dune overlooking the bay I sacrifised waterfront for view so when those three lots just four bolcks from the house came up for sale at $8,000 apiece, I bought them all, FAST, before the owner could change his mind! So the vacant lots are my own private marina.
Member
Maybe I should clarify....I own a property that has a 75' bulkhead on a 6' deep x 90' wide canal that leads directly into the ICW. When I bought my house on the top of a sand dune overlooking the bay I sacrifised waterfront for view so when those three lots just four bolcks from the house came up for sale at $8,000 apiece, I bought them all, FAST, before the owner could change his mind! So the vacant lots are my own private marina.
Member
Maybe I should clarify....I own a property that has a 75' bulkhead on a 6' deep x 90' wide canal that leads directly into the ICW. When I bought my house on the top of a sand dune overlooking the bay I sacrifised waterfront for view so when those three lots just four bolcks from the house came up for sale at $8,000 apiece, I bought them all, FAST, before the owner could change his mind! So the vacant lots are my own private marina.
Member #1938
That has to be the deepest slip I have ever heard of!"Years after I sold the 32' Sloop it sank in its slip because the new owner was not concerned enough to even pump the rain water out of the bilge. It rotted through at the waterline and sank in 300' of water where it still sits."
Member #1938
That has to be the deepest slip I have ever heard of!"Years after I sold the 32' Sloop it sank in its slip because the new owner was not concerned enough to even pump the rain water out of the bilge. It rotted through at the waterline and sank in 300' of water where it still sits."
Member #1938
That has to be the deepest slip I have ever heard of!"Years after I sold the 32' Sloop it sank in its slip because the new owner was not concerned enough to even pump the rain water out of the bilge. It rotted through at the waterline and sank in 300' of water where it still sits."
Senior Member #3500
I thought the same thing...don't drop your sunglasses over in that slip and hope to get them back...
Senior Member #3500
I thought the same thing...don't drop your sunglasses over in that slip and hope to get them back...
Senior Member #3500
I thought the same thing...don't drop your sunglasses over in that slip and hope to get them back...
Member
This slip was at a "spider dock" anchored in cove in a deep canyon lake.
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