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Thread: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    First, it was dug out tree to make a pirogue.

    Later, human used wooden frames and plank and tar for waterproofing.

    Iron and steel came somewhere in time.........for rigging and joining lumber together.

    Humans used materials that were available according to their knowledge time after time.

    North american indians were building awesome canoes from birch bark.
    100 years ago, some wise guys used, cedar and hard wood and brass or copper tacks to build canoes, waterprooffed with canvas.
    Now it's Royalex, aluminum, fiberglass, and cedar strips glassed with epoxy and cloth.

    Mast are carbon fibers, sails made from dacron or kevlar.

    Indians, no doubt, would have been more than happy to have our modern materials to build their canoes.

    Boat were infested with worms until entire submerged hull were covered with copper plates.

    Evolution is the key.
    ''The work is teaching you the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

    Single-handed Sailor, 1968-1969 Golden Globe Challenge, 1st around the world sailing race.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by sailcanoefan View Post
    First, it was dug out tree to make a pirogue.

    Later, human used wooden frames and plank and tar for waterproofing.

    Iron and steel came somewhere in time.........for rigging and joining lumber together.

    Humans used materials that were available according to their knowledge time after time.

    North american indians were building awesome canoes from birch bark.
    100 years ago, some wise guys used, cedar and hard wood and brass or copper tacks to build canoes, waterprooffed with canvas.
    Now it's Royalex, aluminum, fiberglass, and cedar strips glassed with epoxy and cloth.

    Mast are carbon fibers, sails made from dacron or kevlar.

    Indians, no doubt, would have been more than happy to have our modern materials to build their canoes.

    Boat were infested with worms until entire submerged hull were covered with copper plates.

    Evolution is the key.
    Agree 100% with what you say.

    but this is supposed to be a wooden boat forum

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Egad! is it time for a schism in the Wooden Boat forums?

    Quote Originally Posted by Junkyard Dog View Post
    Why not start a "Composite Boat" magazine or sub forum then?
    Because this is a wooden boat forum, and the definition of wood has already been stretched to the limit. The focus should center on wood. The old Building/Repair forum has become the small boat low budget Building/Repair forum. There are any number of posts complaining that the far more numerous dabblers in small boat low budget have overwhelmed the serious traditional builders.

    How many times has someone suggested a Traditional Construction forum?



    Sistering with plastic: Well, it seems to work for work boats where economics trump aesthetics. It depends on you point of view, the depth of your pockets and your commitment to tradition.

    Thermal expansion: "When moist wood is heated, it tends to expand because of normal thermal expansion and to shrink because of loss in moisture content... For wood at usual moisture levels, net dimensional changes will generally be negative after prolonged heating." These guys work in a dry lab, and boats live on the water. Bottom line is that the TCOE is hard to predict because the MCOE is more significant. At least a frame is insulated from the temperature swings of the outer surface in direct sunlight.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine View Post
    Oh absolutely.... ply and epoxy have opened up a incredible selection of designs that a homebuilder can handle, and some are complex shapes and so on.... but they are composite.... epoxy and ply. Plywood by itself has limitations that are overcome by the epoxy coating. The oars and interiors and so on.... very nice....and it speaks to the size of boats being built here. Most are under 25 feet, predominantly sail, and a lot have no auxiliary power. Again, quite different than this place even five years ago. Also a quite vocal crowd, some of whom have no time for a lot of other kinds of boats. No biggie, just evolution.
    Devolution, if you ask me, Peter. I agree that there are some very nice plywood and googe boats turned out by amateur builders, but they aren't traditional and they aren't wooden. Too many shortcuts for my taste, though. It seems everybody wants to do it quick and easy and few want to take the time to learn what the craft is really all about. It's as if a classic car forum were taken over by a bunch of guys who put together plastic dune buggies and fibreglass replica cars.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by CundysHarbor View Post
    Talk about radical concepts, what about wire rigging, wood screws, turnbuckles, plywood, varnish etc, these were all radical ideas when first used. Let's be a little more open minded.
    Oh, we are open minded. I even know of some really great fiberglass boats. But, ya know, they aren't traditionally build wooden boats. The point being that this is where this forum began, but it has now been taken over by people who in large measure are interested in building boats out of plastic resin and manufactured pre-fab wood products. Few of the "old timers," and by that I mean those who've been active in this forum for well over ten years, have little interest in that segment of boatbuilding and are losing interest in this forum. This is what our "being a little more open minded" has gotten us.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by cracked lid View Post
    I suspect there are economic forces at work that are playing as big a role in the shift in boat types as material advancements. I would love to have a larger sailboat boat kept on a coastal bay. It's not going to happen because the cost to live in those areas and the annual costs of owning a boat as a percentage of wages just keeps climbing. In addition, the increased work hours those who have full time employment are working just leaves less time available for enjoying and maintaining a larger vessel. Then, add in the fact that wood boats keep getting older and succumbing to entropy and it's not surprising that a smaller percentage of people on this forum are involved with traditional wood boats. There aren't many old school hot rodders around on hot rodding forums either. At some point, practicality will trump emotion. I enjoy woodworking far more than plywood and epoxy work, but it just isn't practical for me to build and own a timber boat, so it's either small plywood composite or nothing.
    There's truth in that, to be sure. For my money, that's exactly why we have to work to preserve the old tricks of the trade. Few know it, but one can build a small timber boat for a lot less money than one can build a small epoxy boat!

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by sailcanoefan View Post
    First, it was dug out tree to make a pirogue.

    Later, human used wooden frames and plank and tar for waterproofing.

    Iron and steel came somewhere in time.........for rigging and joining lumber together.

    Humans used materials that were available according to their knowledge time after time.

    North american indians were building awesome canoes from birch bark.
    100 years ago, some wise guys used, cedar and hard wood and brass or copper tacks to build canoes, waterprooffed with canvas.
    Now it's Royalex, aluminum, fiberglass, and cedar strips glassed with epoxy and cloth.

    Mast are carbon fibers, sails made from dacron or kevlar.

    Indians, no doubt, would have been more than happy to have our modern materials to build their canoes.

    Boat were infested with worms until entire submerged hull were covered with copper plates.

    Evolution is the key.
    "Evolution" must be proven, passing the test of time over a long period. More often than not, "something new" is not an evolutionary leap, but simply a freak of nature.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    Oh, we are open minded. I even know of some really great fiberglass boats. But, ya know, they aren't traditionally build wooden boats. The point being that this is where this forum began, but it has now been taken over by people who in large measure are interested in building boats out of plastic resin and manufactured pre-fab wood products. Few of the "old timers," and by that I mean those who've been active in this forum for well over ten years, have little interest in that segment of boatbuilding and are losing interest in this forum. This is what our "being a little more open minded" has gotten us.
    That's because of ''BUILDING/REPAIR'' Topic is Too much of General application in building boats.

    As a suggestion, ''Traditional WOOD BUILD'' Topic should be added????
    ''The work is teaching you the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

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  9. #44
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    As a suggestion, ''Traditional WOOD BUILD'' Topic should be added????
    Non-traditional wood build may be more appropriate given the traditional basis of magazine, the reason it exists at all.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Well, there's good arguments either side here. I say instead of moaning about we try to do something about it. Perhaps, as has already been suggested, B and R forum should be divided into two forums: "traditional" and "modern".

    1. We'd have to define those terms. Its easy to see where carvel or stitch-and-glue falls, but what about strip/strip-plank? What about where frames are soaked in CPES? Hmmmm... ponderments a-plenty, for sure.

    2. We'd have to make a third forum for posting engine, rig and systems installations, as these ( mostly) are independent of hull backbone and sheathiing type, and remain applicable to all.

    3. Take our proposed new categories to Scot and see what happens.

    if nothing comes of it, its still more positive than expending energy arguing amongst ourselves.
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    ...than expending energy arguing amongst ourselves.
    Hold on now. Arguing amongst ourselves about most anything is traditional on the WB Forum and deserves to be protected. (sorry, couldn't resist)

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    I like it and wanted to do it years ago when rebuilding my boat.
    I even mentioned doing it on the forum and got a lot of funny jokes about polyethylene strippers.

    I certainly advocate for using non boaty sounding materials in old wooden boats. Just like caulking planks above the waterline with Dynaflex 230, great stuff to use versus that old crack prone linseed oil putty and cotton which is laborious to do and takes a lot of skill and time..

    Plastic ribs will cut down on owner expense and troubles over difficult expensive laborious repairs. Which some who gain a living from repairing old boats wont like.
    Last edited by sdowney717; 09-06-2014 at 01:20 PM.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by artif View Post

    but this is supposed to be a wooden boat forum
    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Egad! is it time for a schism in the Wooden Boat forums?



    Because this is a wooden boat forum, .
    No one complained about the Lulworth thread, even though she is framed entirely in angle iron. Is it because she is a vintage yacht, and not some clapped out fishing boat?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #49
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    I prefer the clapped out fishing boats

  15. #50

    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Egad! is it time for a schism in the Wooden Boat forums?



    Because this is a wooden boat forum, and the definition of wood has already been stretched to the limit. The focus should center on wood. The old Building/Repair forum has become the small boat low budget Building/Repair forum. There are any number of posts complaining that the far more numerous dabblers in small boat low budget have overwhelmed the serious traditional builders.
    It isnt that important anymore. All the traditional and power boat folks have left......and any rude behaviour from the poxy people is allowed. Things are the way they are because someone thinks its ok.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    "Evolution" must be proven, passing the test of time over a long period. More often than not, "something new" is not an evolutionary leap, but simply a freak of nature.
    How long do we wait? Same length of time that epoxy has been around?
    Personally I think that this plastic may not be stiff enough and allow the boat to wrack and work a lot. If they keep the boat tight for longer than it took those timbers took to rot out it may be a winner, and it also has the benifit of being undoable, which some other plastic solutions are not.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  17. #52
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    This is a forum devoted to "wooden boats," whatever that means.
    I would very much like to see a thorough discussion of this novel construction method. The coefficient of expansion question isn't one I'd have thought of, but it seems obvious once it's mentioned.
    I spent quite a bit of last summer installing sister frames in the carvel planked 40' hull of my boat. The frames broke behind the bilge stringers (where they always seem to break) and rather than tear the whole interior out I chose to take off a couple of planks at the breaks in the frames, take out some of the light interior sheathing (not structural ceiling), and then sneak laminated sisters in from the outside. The layers were laminated with plastic (G-Flex). Did I feel guilty about that? Not really. The job might have been doable using steam-bent sisters, but I think the process would have required a lot more destructive disassembly of the interior.
    If I were building a new boat, I think I'd use plain steam bent frames, maybe in two layers in areas of very tight bends. If someone chose to glue-laminate the frames, I don't think I'd say he should be shunned, or excommunicated, or burned at the stake for witchcraft. If someone else built a cold-molded hull, and then sheathed it with FRP, (ala Brooklin Boatyard, or Rockport Marine) I wouldn't say it wasn't a wooden boat. If someone chose to keep an old wooden hull sailing by sheathing it with structural FRP, I might call it a composite boat, but I can certainly see why you'd do that with a boat you owned that you couldn't afford to do a full and "proper" overhaul on.
    I inspect boats for a living. Wood, composite, FRP, Steel, Aluminum, I don't care. In the space of two weeks I've inspected a cold-molded trimarran, a "sawn frame and trunnel fastened" schooner, and a steel fishing boat. They all had their strong points and their weak points.

    I'd argue for a wide interpretation of the term "wooden boat." It someone brings up a topic about rigging a wooden boat, and it becomes apparent that the rig in question is made out of aluminum, stainless steel, forged bronze, polyester cloth, and plastic paint, I'd rather take the view that it's parts attached to a wooden boat, but it doesn't make the boat into an infidel. Just as having an iron engine with a bronze shaft and prop doesn't keep it from being a wooden hull.

    When I was a kid my father brought home a dugout pirogue made by natives to an island group off of Panama. Very cool. Wooden boat! I've marveled at a canoe built by a New Hampshire guy that was claimed to contain not one ounce of metal. Birch bark, cedar, spruce root, pine tar. It was amazing, but I was not for a moment tempted to trade in my Old Town wood/canvas Guide, or my We-No-Nah Royalex white water canoe.

    The search for purity is endless, and in the end pretty tedious. A while ago there were some posts about little plywood hydroplane racing boats. It didn't matter if they were wood or plastic-I'm just not interested in them. The solution was simple. Don't click on that thread. Either ignore its existence or deny its right to exist, but don't waste time on it.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    There are lots of posts in this thread defending "modern" building methods. Several of those posts make the statement that modern methods (i.e., plywood, stitch and glue, etc.) make boat building accessible to more people. One post even refers to older traditional methods as expensive and laborious. I find those posts of a fundamental problem I see with boat ownership these days. That is the almost total lack of knowledge about boats and boat repair/maintenance skills I see increasing among boat owners. Building a carvel planked boat is not particularly difficult or expensive. The skill level required to build a decent boat isn't that high and the tools required are pretty minimal.

    An example is the work I did on my 32' carvel planked boat last spring. I scarfed in about 100' of new planking (10 planks) on the topsides. The tools I used were a router, a sabre saw, a hand plane, an electric drill, two screw drivers, a small prybar, a 12" stainless steel ruler,a tape measure, a random orbital sander, a hammer, a caulking iron and a putty knife. Had I bought all the tools for the project new it would have cost me about $300. Materials were about 120' of 5/4x6 clear vertical grain Douglas fir from the local lumber yard ~$225), 300 #12x1-3/4" stainless steel wood screws (~$90), about a pint of West System 105/205 epoxy and microfibers for glueing the scarfs ($25), maybe a tenth of a bundle of caulking cotton to caulk the seams ($3), a pint of Petit white seam compound ($30), a couple of 5 packs of sanding disks for the RO sander ($8) and a gallon of Old Salem semi-gloss paint ($50). That gives a total materials cost of about $435 for a fairly major repair. The skills required were pretty minimal. None of the tools required any particular skill to use. The hardest part (physically) was cutting the scarfs on the hull. That is what I used the router for. Shaping the planks was done with the sabre saw and a hand plane. Hardly difficult tools to use. I often hear that caulking is difficult and requires special skill. That makes me laugh. Caulking may be tedious and slow, but it is hardly difficult and the skill is easily learned. Frankly I find it more difficult to do a good job of paying the caulked seams with seam compound. I didn't bother to post that repair here because my previous posts about repairs on my boat generated almost no interest.

    My point is that building or maintaining a carvel planked boat isn't all that hard. The skills are easily learned. In fact I find working on my wood boat easier than working on a stitch and glue boat or a glass boat (I have built both). It seems to me that the reason some people prefer plywood boats is that they can build the boat more quickly than they can build a similar sized carvel planked boat. Patience is a virtue they need to develop in my opinion.

    Finally, owning a larger boat doesn't need to be all that expensive. I live on a very modest income, yet I own a 36' sailboat and a 32' powerboat. The key to keeping the costs down is to do everything except the hauling/launching of the boats yourself. I spend less than $1,000 a year to have my boats hauled/launched and that includes stepping the masts on my ketch. I compensate by not having cable TV or a smart phone. The money I don't spend on those two items alone pays for hauling/launching my boats with quite a lot left over. You simply have to make owning a boat the priority in your life.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by seo View Post
    This is a forum devoted to "wooden boats," whatever that means.
    I would very much like to see a thorough discussion of this novel construction method. The coefficient of expansion question isn't one I'd have thought of, but it seems obvious once it's mentioned.
    I spent quite a bit of last summer installing sister frames in the carvel planked 40' hull of my boat. The frames broke behind the bilge stringers (where they always seem to break) and rather than tear the whole interior out I chose to take off a couple of planks at the breaks in the frames, take out some of the light interior sheathing (not structural ceiling), and then sneak laminated sisters in from the outside. The layers were laminated with plastic (G-Flex). Did I feel guilty about that? Not really. The job might have been doable using steam-bent sisters, but I think the process would have required a lot more destructive disassembly of the interior.
    If I were building a new boat, I think I'd use plain steam bent frames, maybe in two layers in areas of very tight bends. If someone chose to glue-laminate the frames, I don't think I'd say he should be shunned, or excommunicated, or burned at the stake for witchcraft. If someone else built a cold-molded hull, and then sheathed it with FRP, (ala Brooklin Boatyard, or Rockport Marine) I wouldn't say it wasn't a wooden boat. If someone chose to keep an old wooden hull sailing by sheathing it with structural FRP, I might call it a composite boat, but I can certainly see why you'd do that with a boat you owned that you couldn't afford to do a full and "proper" overhaul on.
    I inspect boats for a living. Wood, composite, FRP, Steel, Aluminum, I don't care. In the space of two weeks I've inspected a cold-molded trimarran, a "sawn frame and trunnel fastened" schooner, and a steel fishing boat. They all had their strong points and their weak points.

    I'd argue for a wide interpretation of the term "wooden boat." It someone brings up a topic about rigging a wooden boat, and it becomes apparent that the rig in question is made out of aluminum, stainless steel, forged bronze, polyester cloth, and plastic paint, I'd rather take the view that it's parts attached to a wooden boat, but it doesn't make the boat into an infidel. Just as having an iron engine with a bronze shaft and prop doesn't keep it from being a wooden hull.

    When I was a kid my father brought home a dugout pirogue made by natives to an island group off of Panama. Very cool. Wooden boat! I've marveled at a canoe built by a New Hampshire guy that was claimed to contain not one ounce of metal. Birch bark, cedar, spruce root, pine tar. It was amazing, but I was not for a moment tempted to trade in my Old Town wood/canvas Guide, or my We-No-Nah Royalex white water canoe.

    The search for purity is endless, and in the end pretty tedious. A while ago there were some posts about little plywood hydroplane racing boats. It didn't matter if they were wood or plastic-I'm just not interested in them. The solution was simple. Don't click on that thread. Either ignore its existence or deny its right to exist, but don't waste time on it.
    Very sensible, the most in fact.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    I wish you would have posted that repair Todd, although I understand why you chose not to. I think that it is important to get successful examples of traditional boat restoration and repair out in the open to demistify it a bit. May be more folks will choose the traditional route as a result. I read through your restoration blog from stat to finish yesterday and really enjoyed it.

    Jim
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    I wish you would have posted that repair Todd, although I understand why you chose not to. I think that it is important to get successful examples of traditional boat restoration and repair out in the open to demistify it a bit. May be more folks will choose the traditional route as a result. I read through your restoration blog from stat to finish yesterday and really enjoyed it.

    Jim
    +1
    I'd be interested to see any photos and descriptions of you repair.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Thanks for the kind words Jim. I am glad you enjoyed my documentation of the repairs.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    A good deal of the work I did on my boat is posted here: http://todddunnmicroyachts.com/tortu...g_tortuga.html

    or in blog form here: http://todddunn.wordpress.com/

  24. #59

    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    My point is that building or maintaining a carvel planked boat isn't all that hard. The skills are easily learned. In fact I find working on my wood boat easier than working on a stitch and glue boat or a glass boat (I have built both).
    Well, there you have it. All those years that Ron Dudley spent getting his masters ticket before I got to work with him was only because he didn't have the aptitude for boat building. He's dead and gone now, a good thing. It would have broken his heart to find out how easy boat building really was.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine View Post
    Well, there you have it. All those years that Ron Dudley spent getting his masters ticket before I got to work with him was only because he didn't have the aptitude for boat building. He's dead and gone now, a good thing. It would have broken his heart to find out how easy boat building really was.
    Peter believe it or not there is a difference between doing an adequate job, which is where my skill level is, and doing a masterful job, which is where I am sure your teacher was. There are people here on Mount Desert Island who do absolutely beautiful work, but I can't afford them. Even if I could afford to have those people work on my boat, I wouldn't because I don't have a wood boat to hire someone else work on it. It is my toy.

    My point was that the basic skills you need to reframe a boat, or hang a plank aren't all that tough to acquire. In my opinion, the most important thing is patience. You do get better with time of course. The planks I put on last Spring are much tighter fits with more uniform seams than my first few planks. Hanging 50 planks does make a difference. That said, my planks are no where near as nice as someone like Chummy Rich or Richard Stanley would produce. However, all the planks I installed do the job.

    One of my objectives in posting here is to encourage newcomers. I want them to know that if they take their time that they can do the job. It doesn't encourage anyone to be told that caulking is a black art that can only be accomplished successfully by a master craftsman working by the light of a full moon. Or to let them know that a boat caulked by a neophyte will burst into flames on contact with water and then sink, unless it was liberally soaked in CPES.

    Incidentally, yours is the kind of post that drives people away from the forum.
    Last edited by Todd D; 09-06-2014 at 05:29 PM.

  26. #61

    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Todd, I have been working on boats since I was a child, but I no longer have the desire to debate anyone here. There's no point in it.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Well that's a great sales talk but I think I'll wait 50 years before stating this stuff is going to be perfect 50 years from now. I can't find anything on HDPE fatigue in structural use. Every plastic I know of breaks down over time...just in daylight.....
    It certainly seems like an unusual usage, but HDPE is considered to have excellent fatigue resistance. Lots of studies have been done for plastic pipe applications. Here's an example:

    https://plasticpipe.org/pdf/mid-fatigue-plastic-water-pipe-01-12-12.pdf

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd D View Post
    Finally, owning a larger boat doesn't need to be all that expensive. I live on a very modest income, yet I own a 36' sailboat and a 32' powerboat. The key to keeping the costs down is to do everything except the hauling/launching of the boats yourself. I spend less than $1,000 a year to have my boats hauled/launched and that includes stepping the masts on my ketch. I compensate by not having cable TV or a smart phone. The money I don't spend on those two items alone pays for hauling/launching my boats with quite a lot left over. You simply have to make owning a boat the priority in your life.
    That's great. Not everyone has that option. Many of the local boatyards have gone by the wayside. Sold to the highest bidder who plops down condo's or some other development. The boat yard my grandfather kept his boat in held a few hundred boats. 6 years ago it was sold. In it's place are 5 or 6 custom built homes.

    The remaining boatyards consequently have a bit of pricing power. When I had a boat, I was not permitted to do any work on it myself. Everything had to be done by the yard. Winter storage alone ran multiples of your $1,000 annual hauling fee.

    This is on the south shore of Long Island.

    I am close to pulling the trigger on the plans for Welsford's Walkabout, Lillistone's Phoenix III or maybe Chase's Calendar Island Yawl. All are sub 20', glued lap boats as they will live on a trailer. I was hoping to create a thread when it came time to attempt a build but threads like this have me wondering if I should bother. I wouldn't want to annoy any purists.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by cracked lid View Post
    I suspect there are economic forces at work that are playing as big a role in the shift in boat types as material advancements.
    I see this happening in just about every single hobby I have been involved in. Every year my hobbies are open to less and less people given the amount of $$$ needed to participate as people's buying power continues to erode given the increase cost of living and stagnant wage increases.

    Another aspect I see is material availability. I can't afford to purchase large lots of material and have it trucked in. If I want to build I need to be able to go some place local and pick up a couple sheets here, a few boards here etc... and that isn't available in my local for proper wooden boat building materials.

    What is readily available is mail order kits for small plywood crafts or going with local materials like a lumber yard skiff etc......
    Last edited by sean27; 09-06-2014 at 06:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    It certainly seems like an unusual usage, but HDPE is considered to have excellent fatigue resistance. Lots of studies have been done for plastic pipe applications. Here's an example:

    https://plasticpipe.org/pdf/mid-fatigue-plastic-water-pipe-01-12-12.pdf
    Here's a piece about building entire boats out of PVC - apparently they use "traditional" construction methods - chine logs, etc. but use PVC in place of wood.

    http://www.cockrellsmarinerailway.net/Jan09Article.pdf

    and anothebr />
    http://www.soundingsonline.com/news/...a-modern-touch

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    It certainly seems like an unusual usage, but HDPE is considered to have excellent fatigue resistance. Lots of studies have been done for plastic pipe applications. Here's an example:

    https://plasticpipe.org/pdf/mid-fatigue-plastic-water-pipe-01-12-12.pdf
    Yes I saw those Dave. Would the source have any plastic pipe for sale? I think there's considerable difference between a pipe with water running through it and a primary structural support on which people’s lives depend. To me fatigue has to do with the amount of deflection (bending) as well as time and cycles. It seems to me the bending of a pipe with water running through it will be tiny in comparison to the bending of a frame as the boat falls off a 12' wave.....it's possible I'm reading too much into it......perhaps a practicing engineer will pop up and tell us they’re the same thing…..
    ___________________________________
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    cogge ketch Blackfish
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    http://www.tadroberts.ca
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    How long do we wait? Same length of time that epoxy has been around?
    Personally I think that this plastic may not be stiff enough and allow the boat to wrack and work a lot. If they keep the boat tight for longer than it took those timbers took to rot out it may be a winner, and it also has the benifit of being undoable, which some other plastic solutions are not.
    Resins are a broad category, Peerie. At one end of the spectrum, we are talking simply coatings, stuff like CPES (clear penetrating epoxy sealer) and at the other we are talking about adhesives that are expected to hold a craft together without any independent mechanical fastening. In the middle are all sorts of hybrid applications such as fairing fillers, fabric matrix sheathing ("structural" or not) and so on.

    I'm not going to condemn the use of resins. Each to his own. Some have built very nice boats relying on the extensive use of resins and manufactured wood products. However, once the Rubicon of non-grown structural materials is crossed, and the basic engineering defined by the limits of grown timber is abandoned, you just don't have a "wooden boat" anymore. Which is fine if one doesn't care. But most of us who built this forum community in the first place, came here because of our interest in wooden boats, not in alternative or experimental engineering and construction techniques employing plastic resins and engineered composite wood products.

    I'm not suggesting that those who believe they have discovered a better mousetrap need wait at all. I just think they ought to do it on their own time. That's all.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by seo View Post
    This is a forum devoted to "wooden boats," whatever that means.
    I would very much like to see a thorough discussion of this novel construction method. The coefficient of expansion question isn't one I'd have thought of, but it seems obvious once it's mentioned.
    I spent quite a bit of last summer installing sister frames in the carvel planked 40' hull of my boat. The frames broke behind the bilge stringers (where they always seem to break) and rather than tear the whole interior out I chose to take off a couple of planks at the breaks in the frames, take out some of the light interior sheathing (not structural ceiling), and then sneak laminated sisters in from the outside. The layers were laminated with plastic (G-Flex). Did I feel guilty about that? Not really. The job might have been doable using steam-bent sisters, but I think the process would have required a lot more destructive disassembly of the interior.
    If I were building a new boat, I think I'd use plain steam bent frames, maybe in two layers in areas of very tight bends. If someone chose to glue-laminate the frames, I don't think I'd say he should be shunned, or excommunicated, or burned at the stake for witchcraft. If someone else built a cold-molded hull, and then sheathed it with FRP, (ala Brooklin Boatyard, or Rockport Marine) I wouldn't say it wasn't a wooden boat. If someone chose to keep an old wooden hull sailing by sheathing it with structural FRP, I might call it a composite boat, but I can certainly see why you'd do that with a boat you owned that you couldn't afford to do a full and "proper" overhaul on.
    I inspect boats for a living. Wood, composite, FRP, Steel, Aluminum, I don't care. In the space of two weeks I've inspected a cold-molded trimarran, a "sawn frame and trunnel fastened" schooner, and a steel fishing boat. They all had their strong points and their weak points.

    I'd argue for a wide interpretation of the term "wooden boat." It someone brings up a topic about rigging a wooden boat, and it becomes apparent that the rig in question is made out of aluminum, stainless steel, forged bronze, polyester cloth, and plastic paint, I'd rather take the view that it's parts attached to a wooden boat, but it doesn't make the boat into an infidel. Just as having an iron engine with a bronze shaft and prop doesn't keep it from being a wooden hull.

    When I was a kid my father brought home a dugout pirogue made by natives to an island group off of Panama. Very cool. Wooden boat! I've marveled at a canoe built by a New Hampshire guy that was claimed to contain not one ounce of metal. Birch bark, cedar, spruce root, pine tar. It was amazing, but I was not for a moment tempted to trade in my Old Town wood/canvas Guide, or my We-No-Nah Royalex white water canoe.

    The search for purity is endless, and in the end pretty tedious. A while ago there were some posts about little plywood hydroplane racing boats. It didn't matter if they were wood or plastic-I'm just not interested in them. The solution was simple. Don't click on that thread. Either ignore its existence or deny its right to exist, but don't waste time on it.
    Seo, I agree with you. I too am actually somewhat intrigued by the prospect of replacement frames made of recycled milk jugs, but I do have my opinions about them. I suppose there's more to it than just the materials. This used to be a pretty sophisticated forum. There used to be a lot of people in the WBF community who really knew what they were talking about and it was pretty hard to keep up with the posts without learning at least something new and valuable every day. Now, quite frankly, while I feel rather kindly towards beginners and always have, there are way too many people piping up in here who don't know their ass from a hot rock. Just take a count of how many people "building boats" who post in here are glaringly ignorant of the nomenclature. That alone degrades the level of discourse. In any technical field, one must first master the nomenclature if they are to participate in any profitable discourse. Here, at this point, way too many simply haven't even invested the time to learn the language necessary for the rest of us to know what they are talking about. So, you'll see all those "post a picture please," or "we can't answer your question with more information" responses. In another instance, this forum used to be a real good resource for comparing notes on products and materials. You could rely on the advice of professional and highly experienced amateur wooden boat builders about which products had proven the best for various applications (including plastic frames!) Now, there are all sorts of know-it-alls cluttering the place up touting all sorts of crap that any real woodworker wouldn't think of using.

    I don't exactly know how we did it in the early days, but fools weren't suffered graciously in the WBF. Understanding that selling magazines is what WB Magazine is about, and notwithstanding its huge contribution to the preservation of traditional maritime trades and crafts, I am afraid that what seems to be a downward spiral coincided, causally or otherwise, with the publication of Getting Started in Boats. Fact is, any boatman, yachtsman or otherwise, who's ever searched in vain for a guest berth or mooring, or had to anchor in poor ground because the usual suitable spots were taken, has no interest in getting anybody started in boats. That just makes it that much less available to the rest of us! Is there anybody who doesn't understand that the price of berthing is directly related to the number of empty berths in a marina? And, of course, there's no need to remind anybody that the "riff-raff" has lowered the gentlemanly "class" of the sport substantially since production boats became the norm. ("Do you know how to sail?" ... "No, but I know how to use a credit card!")

    So now, there will be all sorts of people incensed about what they think is my "elitist" attitude, but the proof is in the pudding. Those types have chased off many of the forum's most valuable contributors (often the most curmudgeonly and opinionated... because they knew from a working lifetime of experience they were right.) Where is The Chemist? Where is Bob Smalser? The list goes on and on and gets longer every day.

    Too bad, really. Maybe wooden boat forums are like wooden boats... ultimately biodegradable.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd D View Post
    There are lots of posts in this thread defending "modern" building methods. Several of those posts make the statement that modern methods (i.e., plywood, stitch and glue, etc.) make boat building accessible to more people. One post even refers to older traditional methods as expensive and laborious. I find those posts of a fundamental problem I see with boat ownership these days. That is the almost total lack of knowledge about boats and boat repair/maintenance skills I see increasing among boat owners. ... .
    You can say that again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd D View Post
    There are lots of posts in this thread defending "modern" building methods. Several of those posts make the statement that modern methods (i.e., plywood, stitch and glue, etc.) make boat building accessible to more people. One post even refers to older traditional methods as expensive and laborious. I find those posts of a fundamental problem I see with boat ownership these days. That is the almost total lack of knowledge about boats and boat repair/maintenance skills I see increasing among boat owners. ... .

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Intolerance doesn't become you Bob.

    We all started as know-nothings you know, and much of what we have learned has been from the experienced and usually older guys who were gracious enough to share their experience.

    Personally I find it quite gratifying to have become one of those older guys and be able to help someone out. Sharing comes naturally, even if it costs me a bit, and it's plain to see that I'm not the only one here who feels that way.

    So far as innovation and evolution goes, bring 'em on! The old timers can learn from the beginners too, if they're open minded enough.

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