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    Default Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde


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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Well that's a great sales talk but I think I'll wait 50 years before stating this stuff is going to be perfect 50 years from now. I can't find anything on HDPE fatigue in structural use. Every plastic I know of breaks down over time...just in daylight.....
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Well that's a great sales talk but I think I'll wait 50 years before stating this stuff is going to be perfect 50 years from now. I can't find anything on HDPE fatigue in structural use. Every plastic I know of breaks down over time...just in daylight.....
    It certainly seems like an unusual usage, but HDPE is considered to have excellent fatigue resistance. Lots of studies have been done for plastic pipe applications. Here's an example:

    https://plasticpipe.org/pdf/mid-fatigue-plastic-water-pipe-01-12-12.pdf

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    It certainly seems like an unusual usage, but HDPE is considered to have excellent fatigue resistance. Lots of studies have been done for plastic pipe applications. Here's an example:

    https://plasticpipe.org/pdf/mid-fatigue-plastic-water-pipe-01-12-12.pdf
    Here's a piece about building entire boats out of PVC - apparently they use "traditional" construction methods - chine logs, etc. but use PVC in place of wood.

    http://www.cockrellsmarinerailway.net/Jan09Article.pdf

    and anothebr />
    http://www.soundingsonline.com/news/...a-modern-touch

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    It certainly seems like an unusual usage, but HDPE is considered to have excellent fatigue resistance. Lots of studies have been done for plastic pipe applications. Here's an example:

    https://plasticpipe.org/pdf/mid-fatigue-plastic-water-pipe-01-12-12.pdf
    Yes I saw those Dave. Would the source have any plastic pipe for sale? I think there's considerable difference between a pipe with water running through it and a primary structural support on which people’s lives depend. To me fatigue has to do with the amount of deflection (bending) as well as time and cycles. It seems to me the bending of a pipe with water running through it will be tiny in comparison to the bending of a frame as the boat falls off a 12' wave.....it's possible I'm reading too much into it......perhaps a practicing engineer will pop up and tell us they’re the same thing…..
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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    ... To me fatigue has to do with the amount of deflection (bending) as well as time and cycles. It seems to me the bending of a pipe with water running through it will be tiny in comparison to the bending of a frame as the boat falls off a 12' wave.....it's possible I'm reading too much into it......perhaps a practicing engineer will pop up and tell us they’re the same thing…..
    Exactly my point... time was, before everything in here got covered in googe squeezin's and sheathed in fiberglass covered plywood, that there'd be several practicing engineers who would post explaining why it was a great idea or a crazy idea and we'd all learn something interesting. Now, those practicing engineers, if they look at the post at all anymore, are probably thinking, "Who gives a fook? Why do I need to waste my time arguing with idiots who know nothing about what I've done for a living for the last thirty years?"

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by erster View Post
    I am no stinking wallpapered engineer. But I can go both ways, designing and building traditional or modern, or I will say I can go several other ways or a combination of all of the above, so to speak. That should also be legal these days right? ;<} I did not join the internet and computer world before I quit most all fancy pants building and rebuilding with exotic framing and planking. Thankfully I was able to have an open mind enough to figure out how to deal with traditional designs using modern materials or somewhat modern or revised materials for boats. But not even I have succumbed to plastic framing on wooden planked boats.

    But this did not stop the scorn that was heaped upon almost all of those revised and modernized builds of some traditional designs and materials on this very forum, proving that its not always about the acceptance of wooden boats. But this has not stopped me from still doing things my way using hybrid methods with traditional designs to the point that I don’t need no stinking hands either for the boat to still run correctly when it hits the water.

    This should get some fired up. hehe


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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by erster View Post
    I am no stinking wallpapered engineer. But I can go both ways, designing and building traditional or modern, or I will say I can go several other ways or a combination of all of the above, so to speak. That should also be legal these days right? ;<} I did not join the internet and computer world before I quit most all fancy pants building and rebuilding with exotic framing and planking. Thankfully I was able to have an open mind enough to figure out how to deal with traditional designs using modern materials or somewhat modern or revised materials for boats. But not even I have succumbed to plastic framing on wooden planked boats.

    But this did not stop the scorn that was heaped upon almost all of those revised and modernized builds of some traditional designs and materials on this very forum, proving that its not always about the acceptance of wooden boats. But this has not stopped me from still doing things my way using hybrid methods with traditional designs to the point that I don’t need no stinking hands either for the boat to still run correctly when it hits the water.

    This should get some fired up. hehe




    Well, Erster, it don't much matter what a boat is built out of, or how, if you fall overboard with the outboard running full out!

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Seems that the term adequate can be disparaging to some. I guess it depends on what that term means to the individual. To me it means that the work meets all requirements, is fully functional but not perfect. In the case of a plank on a carvel planked boat it means that the plank fits snugly with no gaps, does not leak after the wood takes up and stands the test of time. The external seam width may not be perfectly even and there may be other cosmetic flaws. Basically adequate to me means journeyman quality, but not master quality. If some want to say that isn't good enough, then fine that is their privilege. The rest of us will continue to do adequate work with occasional failures and now and then a bit of superior work. We will learn from the failures and over time the quality of our work will improve. Personally I am satisfied when my adequate varnish work gets compliments from professional varnishers, but I still know where all the flaws are and expect my work to be better next year.

    Here is an example of adequate work. It sure isn't perfect, but it did the job.

    Last edited by Todd D; 09-06-2014 at 09:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Yes I saw those Dave. Would the source have any plastic pipe for sale? I think there's considerable difference between a pipe with water running through it and a primary structural support on which people’s lives depend. To me fatigue has to do with the amount of deflection (bending) as well as time and cycles. It seems to me the bending of a pipe with water running through it will be tiny in comparison to the bending of a frame as the boat falls off a 12' wave.....it's possible I'm reading too much into it......perhaps a practicing engineer will pop up and tell us they’re the same thing…..
    I respect your view Tad. However, when I was a practicing engineer more than a decade ago I had some interesting experiences with multiple cycles of high pressure spiking in tubes and pipes and the various components they served. Fatigue failures were common. I believe fatigue cycles in some of these polyethylene pipe systems probably equal or exceed in number and magnitude the cycles Louis Sauzedde's repaired frames are likely to experience in the boat's remaining lifetime. But that's just my opinion, and who knows what those frames will experience. My thought is simply that you shouldn't discount the magnitude of hydraulic action in PE pipes and how it might be useful in evaluating the material in boat structure applications.

    Then there's Cleek's comment:

    "Now, those practicing engineers, if they look at the post at all anymore, are probably thinking, "Who gives a fook? Why do I need to waste my time arguing with idiots who know nothing about what I've done for a living for the last thirty years?"

    I'm not aiming this at you, just pointing out why I wouldn't dream of arguing with Cleek..

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Cross View Post
    Does any Frame Material have a "Proven" service life of over 50 Years Except Southern Live Oak?
    Steve Cross
    lotta european double sawn frame vessels meeting that criteria.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Although he doesn't claim to have invented the concept, Sauzedde is also the go-to guy for plastic framing in traditional wooden boats, whether in new construction, repair, or restoration. He knew a lobsterman who had sistered some frames with plastic, and that gave him the idea to frame entire boats this way. He uses high-density polyethylene sources directly from plastic manufacturers, and his frames have been proven to be flexible and unbreakable. They hold screws well, require no paint or finish, and most important are 100 percent impervious to rot. "I've been subject to tremendous amounts of ridicule over the plastic frames, but some boatbuilders and owners who initially ridiculed me for it have since been doing it themselves."

    A Modern Traditional Boatbuilder - The long and innovative career of Louis Sauzedde by Jay Picotte
    WoodenBoat Magazine (no. 239) July - August 2014

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    I would worry about the coefficient of thermal expansion of the plastic. You might get a big surprise when you sail into the tropics.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Skiff Man View Post
    I would worry about the coefficient of thermal expansion of the plastic. You might get a big surprise when you sail into the tropics.
    +3.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Skiff Man View Post
    I would worry about the coefficient of thermal expansion of the plastic. You might get a big surprise when you sail into the tropics.
    That's a good point. Here are some comparisons:

    Product
    - α -
    (10-6 m/m K) *) (10-6 in/in oF) *)
    Polyester 123.5 69
    Polyester - glass fiber-reinforced 25 14
    Polyethylene (PE) 200 111
    Polyethylene (PE) - High Molecular Weight 108
    60
    Wood, fir 3.7 2.1
    Wood, parallel to grain 3 1.7
    Wood, across (perpendicular) to grain 30 17
    Wood, pine 5 2.8

    So if I'm reading this correctly, the plastic has about 3 times the thermal expansion of the frames they replace. I'm using that figure since fasteners would typically be used across the grain. Is that the right way to look at this?

    Source: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/li...ents-d_95.html
    Last edited by Junkyard Dog; 09-05-2014 at 09:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    There are lots of posts in this thread defending "modern" building methods. Several of those posts make the statement that modern methods (i.e., plywood, stitch and glue, etc.) make boat building accessible to more people. One post even refers to older traditional methods as expensive and laborious. I find those posts of a fundamental problem I see with boat ownership these days. That is the almost total lack of knowledge about boats and boat repair/maintenance skills I see increasing among boat owners. Building a carvel planked boat is not particularly difficult or expensive. The skill level required to build a decent boat isn't that high and the tools required are pretty minimal.

    An example is the work I did on my 32' carvel planked boat last spring. I scarfed in about 100' of new planking (10 planks) on the topsides. The tools I used were a router, a sabre saw, a hand plane, an electric drill, two screw drivers, a small prybar, a 12" stainless steel ruler,a tape measure, a random orbital sander, a hammer, a caulking iron and a putty knife. Had I bought all the tools for the project new it would have cost me about $300. Materials were about 120' of 5/4x6 clear vertical grain Douglas fir from the local lumber yard ~$225), 300 #12x1-3/4" stainless steel wood screws (~$90), about a pint of West System 105/205 epoxy and microfibers for glueing the scarfs ($25), maybe a tenth of a bundle of caulking cotton to caulk the seams ($3), a pint of Petit white seam compound ($30), a couple of 5 packs of sanding disks for the RO sander ($8) and a gallon of Old Salem semi-gloss paint ($50). That gives a total materials cost of about $435 for a fairly major repair. The skills required were pretty minimal. None of the tools required any particular skill to use. The hardest part (physically) was cutting the scarfs on the hull. That is what I used the router for. Shaping the planks was done with the sabre saw and a hand plane. Hardly difficult tools to use. I often hear that caulking is difficult and requires special skill. That makes me laugh. Caulking may be tedious and slow, but it is hardly difficult and the skill is easily learned. Frankly I find it more difficult to do a good job of paying the caulked seams with seam compound. I didn't bother to post that repair here because my previous posts about repairs on my boat generated almost no interest.

    My point is that building or maintaining a carvel planked boat isn't all that hard. The skills are easily learned. In fact I find working on my wood boat easier than working on a stitch and glue boat or a glass boat (I have built both). It seems to me that the reason some people prefer plywood boats is that they can build the boat more quickly than they can build a similar sized carvel planked boat. Patience is a virtue they need to develop in my opinion.

    Finally, owning a larger boat doesn't need to be all that expensive. I live on a very modest income, yet I own a 36' sailboat and a 32' powerboat. The key to keeping the costs down is to do everything except the hauling/launching of the boats yourself. I spend less than $1,000 a year to have my boats hauled/launched and that includes stepping the masts on my ketch. I compensate by not having cable TV or a smart phone. The money I don't spend on those two items alone pays for hauling/launching my boats with quite a lot left over. You simply have to make owning a boat the priority in your life.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd D View Post
    Finally, owning a larger boat doesn't need to be all that expensive. I live on a very modest income, yet I own a 36' sailboat and a 32' powerboat. The key to keeping the costs down is to do everything except the hauling/launching of the boats yourself. I spend less than $1,000 a year to have my boats hauled/launched and that includes stepping the masts on my ketch. I compensate by not having cable TV or a smart phone. The money I don't spend on those two items alone pays for hauling/launching my boats with quite a lot left over. You simply have to make owning a boat the priority in your life.
    That's great. Not everyone has that option. Many of the local boatyards have gone by the wayside. Sold to the highest bidder who plops down condo's or some other development. The boat yard my grandfather kept his boat in held a few hundred boats. 6 years ago it was sold. In it's place are 5 or 6 custom built homes.

    The remaining boatyards consequently have a bit of pricing power. When I had a boat, I was not permitted to do any work on it myself. Everything had to be done by the yard. Winter storage alone ran multiples of your $1,000 annual hauling fee.

    This is on the south shore of Long Island.

    I am close to pulling the trigger on the plans for Welsford's Walkabout, Lillistone's Phoenix III or maybe Chase's Calendar Island Yawl. All are sub 20', glued lap boats as they will live on a trailer. I was hoping to create a thread when it came time to attempt a build but threads like this have me wondering if I should bother. I wouldn't want to annoy any purists.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd D View Post
    There are lots of posts in this thread defending "modern" building methods. Several of those posts make the statement that modern methods (i.e., plywood, stitch and glue, etc.) make boat building accessible to more people. One post even refers to older traditional methods as expensive and laborious. I find those posts of a fundamental problem I see with boat ownership these days. That is the almost total lack of knowledge about boats and boat repair/maintenance skills I see increasing among boat owners. ... .
    You can say that again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd D View Post
    There are lots of posts in this thread defending "modern" building methods. Several of those posts make the statement that modern methods (i.e., plywood, stitch and glue, etc.) make boat building accessible to more people. One post even refers to older traditional methods as expensive and laborious. I find those posts of a fundamental problem I see with boat ownership these days. That is the almost total lack of knowledge about boats and boat repair/maintenance skills I see increasing among boat owners. ... .

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    HDPE is tough and has moderate strength, but is not stiff. At $40 per board foot or $70 for UHMW it isn't the least expensive option. I can see where it will reinforce by sistering frames if the curvature isn't too tight, but the surrounding structure has to hold the shape. Tough and stable are different animals. I don't see any problem with holding moisture. While it is impermeable, it doesn't absorb water, so there is less to dry out. For my money, I would rather laminate a frame in place. I do think the PE can work, and it will never rot.

    When I quoted JD saying: "Why not start a "Composite Boat" magazine or sub forum then?" and said that this is a wooden boat forum, I just meant that it would be better to start a traditional forum than a composite (implicitly not wood) forum.

    I never said that I don't like modern materials. I am one of those guys with under 20 ft plywood and wood strip/composite boats. I am not a traditionalist, but I do like tradition when it works. I am never going to build a 30' traditional cruising boat. I wish I could, but it won't happen. I say things like 'get away with' and catch a load of crap for it. To me, 'get away with' meant that it would do the job, last a long time but would not have the traditional look. I try to save that last $4 worth of varnish. But not with canned Arrgh-on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd D View Post
    I didn't bother to post that repair here because my previous posts about repairs on my boat generated almost no interest.
    That's a shame. In your previous posts, I'll bet you did a good job, described it well, and didn't leave yourself open for a lot of criticism. If there is nothing to criticize, it is hard to strike up a conversation about what you should have done. Sometimes the really good information is passed over because there isn't much left to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    No one complained about the Lulworth thread, even though she is framed entirely in angle iron. Is it because she is a vintage yacht, and not some clapped out fishing boat?
    Well, those are the old ways of making a composite structure. We like old stuff. It's the new stuff that we rail against. We're all crabs in a bucket. Well said though, you are absolutely right.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 09-07-2014 at 12:58 AM. Reason: typo

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    A warning.

    Most plastics have a much higher coefficient of expansion that wood, meaning the expand and contract more with changes of temperature. This could lead to greater opening up of seams in warm dry conditions, and compressing them in cool moist conditions. Might be OK in New England where boats tend to be hauled and allowed to dry some in Winter, and launched in Spring when things warm up and the humidity increases. I could see this being a major problem in other climates.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Can't be much worse than white oak ..... except it is PLASTIC.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Interesting, and worth a try, but maybe best tried on somebody else's boat first. ;-)

    Tom

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    This used to be a wooden boat forum.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine View Post
    This used to be a wooden boat forum.
    Not anymore. It's the "How can I get away with the cheapest possible materials and yet survive?" forum. Totally at odds with the the idea of doing the best one possibly do...given one's situation...

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Originally Posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine: "This used to be a wooden boat forum."

    Quote Originally Posted by pcford View Post
    Not anymore. It's the "How can I get away with the cheapest possible materials and yet survive?" forum. Totally at odds with the the idea of doing the best one possibly do...given one's situation...
    Hear! Hear!

    But wait! "I want my plastic frames to look traditional, so I want to veneer them with teak. Would PL Premium adhesive be a good choice for this?"

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    Originally Posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine: "This used to be a wooden boat forum."
    Would PL Premium adhesive be a good choice for this?"
    And how can I save the $4 worth of varnish left in the can?

    On the other hand, probably a lot more possible magazine buyers with questions like these than those interested in traditional boatbuilding.
    But that is not the reason I originally subscribed thirty-some years ago.
    Last edited by pcford; 09-05-2014 at 02:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by pcford View Post
    And how can I save the $4 worth of varnish left in the can?
    That's easy! Spend $15 on a can of Bloxygen!



    http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/200...tmIaAuk_8P8HAQ

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Egad! is it time for a schism in the Wooden Boat forums?

    Quote Originally Posted by Junkyard Dog View Post
    Why not start a "Composite Boat" magazine or sub forum then?
    Because this is a wooden boat forum, and the definition of wood has already been stretched to the limit. The focus should center on wood. The old Building/Repair forum has become the small boat low budget Building/Repair forum. There are any number of posts complaining that the far more numerous dabblers in small boat low budget have overwhelmed the serious traditional builders.

    How many times has someone suggested a Traditional Construction forum?



    Sistering with plastic: Well, it seems to work for work boats where economics trump aesthetics. It depends on you point of view, the depth of your pockets and your commitment to tradition.

    Thermal expansion: "When moist wood is heated, it tends to expand because of normal thermal expansion and to shrink because of loss in moisture content... For wood at usual moisture levels, net dimensional changes will generally be negative after prolonged heating." These guys work in a dry lab, and boats live on the water. Bottom line is that the TCOE is hard to predict because the MCOE is more significant. At least a frame is insulated from the temperature swings of the outer surface in direct sunlight.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by artif View Post

    but this is supposed to be a wooden boat forum
    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Egad! is it time for a schism in the Wooden Boat forums?



    Because this is a wooden boat forum, .
    No one complained about the Lulworth thread, even though she is framed entirely in angle iron. Is it because she is a vintage yacht, and not some clapped out fishing boat?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Egad! is it time for a schism in the Wooden Boat forums?



    Because this is a wooden boat forum, and the definition of wood has already been stretched to the limit. The focus should center on wood. The old Building/Repair forum has become the small boat low budget Building/Repair forum. There are any number of posts complaining that the far more numerous dabblers in small boat low budget have overwhelmed the serious traditional builders.
    It isnt that important anymore. All the traditional and power boat folks have left......and any rude behaviour from the poxy people is allowed. Things are the way they are because someone thinks its ok.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine View Post
    This used to be a wooden boat forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by pcford View Post
    Not anymore. It's the "How can I get away with the cheapest possible materials and yet survive?" forum. Totally at odds with the the idea of doing the best one possibly do...given one's situation...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    Originally Posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine: "This used to be a wooden boat forum."



    Hear! Hear!

    But wait! "I want my plastic frames to look traditional, so I want to veneer them with teak. Would PL Premium adhesive be a good choice for this?"
    Look at your selves guys.

    No one complains about steel floors in a wooden boat.

    Did we not applaud a thread on the rebuild of a big composite yacht framed entirely in steel?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Look at your selves guys.

    No one complains about steel floors in a wooden boat.

    Did we not applaud a thread on the rebuild of a big composite yacht framed entirely in steel?
    We'll probably do the same when they've been using plastic frames for a 150 years, too.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Look at your selves guys.

    No one complains about steel floors in a wooden boat.

    Did we not applaud a thread on the rebuild of a big composite yacht framed entirely in steel?
    You're confusing me with someone else. I don't mind seeing steel 'joiners' in wooden boats, but when I first came here, this was a wooden boat forum, devoted to the building and restoration/preservation of wooden boats. Take a look at the 100 threads listed here in Building and repair. The majority are epoxy/ply/cloth boats, mostly under 20 feet..... not that there isn't a place for that, and some of these boats are quite lovely. Personally, I don't think you can class them as wood, because their construction is clearly composite in nature. I'm not trying to be snotty.... there are people here that are far better at that than I. I'm just observing. Most the of the bigger wooden boat owners have disappeared from this forum.

    As far as I'm concerned, people can any construction of boat they choose, but I don't quite understand the desire to hold on to wooden boats as a philosophy, while building boats in composite. At that point, I will just have a fibreglass boat.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Oriental, NC USA
    Posts
    4,684

    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    What is the long term deformation of the particular plastic under load? Very few plastics are good at this.
    Tom L

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Fredericksburg, Virginia
    Posts
    279

    Default Re: Using plastic for framing instead of oak with Louis Sauzedde

    So for opening between 4.5" planks with 40deg F temperature increase:

    Gap opening between 4.5" planks =(60-17)*(E10-6)*(40deg)*(4.5")=0.0077"

    That's pretty small, and probably will be taken up by the precompression between planks. Sistering frames and mixing frame materials might be more important.

    Differential length change for 8' plastic and wood frames =(60-1.7)*(E10-6)*(40deg)*(8')=0.22". That would be a huge strain change for wood parallel to grain. The battle between plastic and wood would be on, with the planking screws as the middlemen.

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