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Thread: The Harbor Master Called me Today

  1. #421
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    all the best for the final fit Jim, although you and I know it'll fit don't we

  2. #422
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    Impressive and daunting all at once.
    Daunting is a good word for what it feels like if I think more than, say, six steps ahead, Lew. Right now I can envision the bow rebuilt back to the seventh frame bay and I like that vision, it’s doable.


    Quote Originally Posted by andrewpatrol View Post
    all the best for the final fit Jim, although you and I know it'll fit don't we
    I think it will fit now, Andrew. I was a lot less certain a couple days ago whenthe gap was out too much and I couldn’t figure out how to close it (it turnedout the keel needed better support and had sagged a bit, opening up the gap betweenrabbet and planking). It was an uncomfortable feeling, thinking that I may havewasted a week’s worth of effort, not to mention the timber, and screwed up therabbet. I understand now why everyone says new construction is easier; itcertainly wouldn’t matter so much where the rabbet was if new planks were beingrun into it, verses trying to match it up to planks in situ.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  3. #423
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    I got to put a new piece back on the boat today. Of course first I needed to dig a few holes under the boat because the auger and drill were too long to fit under the boat.



    If someone asks if they can dig a hole for you, always say yes.



    Once the holes were drilled carriage bolts were driven in with a little bit of cotton under their heads.



    And we are back to where we were several weeks ago when I decided that knee looked a little dodgey.



    Drive home some new screws in the plank ends.



    Hey, that don't look too bad.



    Jim
    Last edited by jsjpd1; 07-19-2015 at 12:42 AM.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  4. #424
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Ultra cool Jim!

    Well done!
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

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  5. #425
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    You bl@@dy little rippa. Did you drill oversize for the bolt holes Jim? Something in my near future is the reason I ask.

  6. #426
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Thanks Duncan!

    No oversized holes here Andrew, ideally I want them to be a little snug so they seal up nice.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  7. #427
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewpatrol View Post
    You bl@@dy little rippa. Did you drill oversize for the bolt holes Jim? Something in my near future is the reason I ask.
    The shipwrignts rule was that the hole be 1/16th inch smaller than the bolt. Augers in 1/16th sizes are like gold dust.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  8. #428
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    I was thinking it'd have to be a smidgen bigger in case the hole got a bit wobbly and you couldn't hit the bolt through

  9. #429
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewpatrol View Post
    I was thinking it'd have to be a smidgen bigger in case the hole got a bit wobbly and you couldn't hit the bolt through
    Use a bigger hammer.
    The wood has to grip the bolt otherwise the stresses will not be transferred through the joint, movement will ensue as the boat works and she will end up leaking like a basket.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #430
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Take it from someone who has done that job quite a few times, nice work....
    Fish and ships or is that chips

  11. #431
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Very nice work! Now you ca breath a sigh of relief.

  12. #432
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Thanks guys. I finished fastening all the plank ends and the heels of the new frames. Now it is back to bending in new frames and replacing a few floors, before dealing with six or seven planks that need some help at the bow.

    Jim
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  13. #433
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Looking great Jim. Nothing like the satisfaction and peace of mind work like yours will bring you. You know it's strong, you know it's dependable, and you know it's done well. Excellent!

  14. #434
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Really nice progress!!

    What material were/are the carriage bolts?

    S
    Now is a good time!


    Steward of MAKOTO [WB Magazine #232], and Honored Member of the LPBC

  15. #435
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    They are galvanized steel, Scott, which is what was there originally.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  16. #436
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Got a floor out today.



    There is something a bit odd about the old one. It has a big drift or nail of some sort through the center of it but it ends square at the base of the floor with no hole or fastener in the keel. Strange. I decided to lag bolt in the new one with a 12 inch long, 1\2 inch bolt.

    Counter sink for the head of the bolt and limber hole cut.



    And the hole drilled for the bolt.



    Ready to be fit.



    Ten trips to the shed later, to take off just a little more with the forty grit sanding wheel, the fit looks pretty good.



    Here it is bolted in place and painted up.


    After the paint is dry I'll be able to suck in that new frame and fasten it to the floor, it needs to come in about 1\8 of an inch.

    Jim
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  17. #437
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    So, where do you stop? Semi-serious question, especially if you have gone through a major restoration before, when do you decide a piece needs to be replaced? Obviously, some parts are so far gone (like the stem I just replaced) that there is no question that they need to go, but others fall into a bit of a gray area.

    Like the two frames in the port bow, for example.





    Under the plank the frames look a little tired, but the ends aren't bad and the three that have been replaced because of bad ends that are a little further back looked similar but were still extremely tough when I cut them out. Do they get to stay? There is no question on the other side where frames have been sistered and pieced together, they are all coming out.

    The things one contemplates, while sitting in the bilge fastening frame to floor.




    So what say you? Where is the line?
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  18. #438
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    I say do 'em Jim cos it'll never be easier. And it'll remove that nagging doubt when you're punching into a head sea. Its probably the same as reefing - as soon as you think about it, do it. A couple more now is small change next to the other work you're doing. Need I go on.........

  19. #439
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Fair point Andrew, and that was where I was leaning on those two prior to this afternoon's moment of indecision. But what about frame number six? It is in similar shape but the structure hasn't been opened up enough for easy removal yet. Or the one behind that behind that? You see where I'm going here. When I repaired a 1940s wood and canvas canoe for my dad's friend I only took it back as far as was necessary to excise the rot while maintaining as much of the original as possible (and its structural integrity). But that was an easier call because all of the structure is easily accessible...
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  20. #440
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post

    Under the plank the frames look a little tired, but the ends aren't bad and the three that have been replaced because of bad ends that are a little further back looked similar but were still extremely tough when I cut them out.
    So what say you? Where is the line?
    That suggests that they can stay.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  21. #441
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    I've following this from the start, that stem is a serious piece of work!
    I think the answer lies somewhere between 1: Is she safe at the point you decide enough is enough, 2: Is she historically significant enough to warrant a (more) complete rebuild than that, and 3: Will you feel comfortable passing her on to somebody else in the future, knowing what you know about her condition, YMMV on this one.
    And maybe 4: how badly do you want to get her back on the water?
    That isnt much help, is it!

    Pete
    Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers!

  22. #442
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    I realize that I am the only one who can really answer the question when it comes to this project, I guess I was just interested in hearing other people's takes on how far to go. There are enough of this type of boat around still that I think we can rule out the historically significant part Pete.

    Nick, I am starting to feel more comfortable with that idea. Just for interest sake here is the lower half of one of the removed frames.





    Note the screw still in it. I missed that one and ended up pulling it through the plank (after significant effort) unintentionally.

    Here is the same section cut into 4 inch chunks, starting with the rotten end on the left.



    The dark sections were cut very close to old fastener holes.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  23. #443
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    ^ The wood looks solid enough. I would be more worried about the number of screw holes, to many close together and it is like the perforations in a sheet of stamps.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  24. #444
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    That is a concern where planking is being replaced. Where it's just being refastened I've been using the same hole cleaned out with a counter sink and the next size up screw, #12 instead of #10.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  25. #445
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Have a look at this:
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  26. #446
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    The dark sections were cut very close to old fastener holes.
    Steel fasteners? - Tom

  27. #447
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Jim, I think your biggest factor on replacing parts is simple: Family.

    You are going to have your wife and girls out on this boat, possibly (probably) in some hairy conditions. You need to be confident that your vessel will keep you safe, and get you to safety. Personally, I'd lean toward replacement for the reasons mentioned above. That said, I've never been a part of a project like this, so its easy for me to say.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

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  28. #448
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Jim, I think your biggest factor on replacing parts is simple: Family.

    You are going to have your wife and girls out on this boat, possibly (probably) in some hairy conditions. You need to be confident that your vessel will keep you safe, and get you to safety. Personally, I'd lean toward replacement for the reasons mentioned above. That said, I've never been a part of a project like this, so its easy for me to say.
    Completely valid points. However, being in the middle of a "I wish I had stopped" project, I've learned that it's easy to find fault with virtually any piece of wood. In my less than expert opinion, if the ends of the frames are good, then I'd throw some minimum 3 plank long (IOW - cover the width of 3 planks) sisters in any spots I suspected - longer if needed. Sisters are a time-honored fix that work well & can save the owner a fortune.

  29. #449
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Have a look at this:
    Thanks, that is a really helpful video!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Scientist View Post
    Steel fasteners? - Tom
    That's right Tom, the entire boat was originally steel fastened. As to be expected there is not much left in some spots.

    This is the next floor in line, with one lone hold out nail.



    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Jim, I think your biggest factor on replacing parts is simple: Family.

    You are going to have your wife and girls out on this boat, possibly (probably) in some hairy conditions. You need to be confident that your vessel will keep you safe, and get you to safety. Personally, I'd lean toward replacement for the reasons mentioned above. That said, I've never been a part of a project like this, so its easy for me to say.
    I don't disagree and so far I think I've shown myself pretty willing to open up the structure to address issues as needed. But like Garret said, it has become very easy to see every stick as suspect, so I'm checking my assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Completely valid points. However, being in the middle of a "I wish I had stopped" project, I've learned that it's easy to find fault with virtually any piece of wood. In my less than expert opinion, if the ends of the frames are good, then I'd throw some minimum 3 plank long (IOW - cover the width of 3 planks) sisters in any spots I suspected - longer if needed. Sisters are a time-honored fix that work well & can save the owner a fortune.
    I've had a couple "I wish I had stopped" non-boat projects and appreciate your perspective Garret.

    Jim
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  30. #450
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    When it is for myself I tend to take a critical look at it and ask myself if it is able to completely fulfill its job. If the answer is yes, then I can feel comfortable about deciding to leave it and won't have to second guess myself in the future. If I don't feel comfortable thinking it will completely perform its job then I feel comfortable with the decision of repair or replace. This is keeping in mind the functional performance may be quite different than cosmetics & appearance.
    If it looks a bit crappy, but you are confident it will work just fine at least you can be comfortable with any decision.

  31. #451
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    That's right Tom, the entire boat was originally steel fastened. As to be expected there is not much left in some spots.

    This is the next floor in line, with one lone hold out nail.
    Wow, Jim, does the thought of all those fixings which may well be effectively gone, yet not known to be gone, give you the heebie-jeebies?

    Are you going to pull, check, and replace as necessary every floor? And what about the plank fixings, the keel.... ?

    Magnificent work you're doing. I have a similar vessel (33' cruiser, 1954) with fewer issues but still major ones, and I'm at the point where I need to decide whether to bite the bullet and do mine the same way you are (out of the water for months or perhaps years), or sister in some new ribs and fit new shaft logs and keep her going. Even in your situation I'd be sistering in some frames and moving on, as we only have so much time, and you still have the transom to get to, which sounds like it could be months of work on its own.

    Whatever you decide, I'm grateful you're documenting it all so thoroughly.

    Regards,
    John.

  32. #452
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    When it is for myself I tend to take a critical look at it and ask myself if it is able to completely fulfill its job. If the answer is yes, then I can feel comfortable about deciding to leave it and won't have to second guess myself in the future. If I don't feel comfortable thinking it will completely perform its job then I feel comfortable with the decision of repair or replace. This is keeping in mind the functional performance may be quite different than cosmetics & appearance.
    If it looks a bit crappy, but you are confident it will work just fine at least you can be comfortable with any decision.
    Sounds reasonable Ned. Did you have frames to replace along with your stem and deck?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    Wow, Jim, does the thought of all those fixings which may well be effectively gone, yet not known to be gone, give you the heebie-jeebies?

    Are you going to pull, check, and replace as necessary every floor? And what about the plank fixings, the keel.... ?

    Magnificent work you're doing. I have a similar vessel (33' cruiser, 1954) with fewer issues but still major ones, and I'm at the point where I need to decide whether to bite the bullet and do mine the same way you are (out of the water for months or perhaps years), or sister in some new ribs and fit new shaft logs and keep her going. Even in your situation I'd be sistering in some frames and moving on, as we only have so much time, and you still have the transom to get to, which sounds like it could be months of work on its own.

    Whatever you decide, I'm grateful you're documenting it all so thoroughly.

    Regards,
    John.
    I've half joked more than once that habit is the only thing keeping her together. The more I look the truer that seems to get!

    Early on I concluded that all the planking under the water line needed to be refastened. That is actually about 25% complete now. Unlike planking, which has the screws refreshed occasionally as problems develop, the floors have likely never been touched. If there is any doubt at all they will be refastened. They are too structurally important not to make sure of them. Really it is no wonder the more the previous owner chased leaks, the more leaks showed up. The one saving grace I suppose is that it's not a sail boat with a few thousand pounds of lead hanging off the bottom. If she were she would probably be at the bottom of the harbor instead of in my yard.

    Jim
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  33. #453
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    The one saving grace I suppose is that it's not a sail boat with a few thousand pounds of lead hanging off the bottom. If she were she would probably be at the bottom of the harbor instead of in my yard.
    Yep! And more so, the enormous strains on the hull from the rig, twisting the entire thing...

    Anyway, you're going to have a lovely boat some time in the not too distant future. I like the interior layout too. Practical and well executed, as far as one can tell from the photos.

    Regards,
    John.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  34. #454
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    So far I am lucky. I have replaced about 1/3 of one rib (rotted from leaking bulkhead above). I know there are a small number of ribs aft that are cracked at the turn of he bilge that may get sisters, but that's about it.
    I think there is a bit of an advantage with lapstrake, 1) you don't have to worry about screw holes working oversize over the years. the rivets go straight through, 2) there is good air flow around the backside of the rib at each and every lap so you don't tend to get the hidden decay, 3) with the planks riveted every 2" and ribs every 6" the boat is not as dependent on the ribs/frames for integrity, water tight and otherwise. Take the frames out of a carvel boat and it falls completely apart, take the ribs out of a lapstrake boat and it stays together 100%.

  35. #455
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    Default Re: The Harbor Master Called me Today

    Two new frames today. I figured I could do it in two hours, and it took four, exactly as predicted.



    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

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