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Thread: Just b4 micro cruising, rigging, decking and more...

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    Default Just b4 micro cruising, rigging, decking and more...

    A full walk round of Pacific Proa Make O'Break, just b4 autumn cruising of Greek islands I tweak the rig and deck him up.......

    The marriage of an outrigger and a Chinese Junk turned out to be very successful, finally I have a micro cruiser I can trust!

    I feel this package is the most boat to the buck and the most boat for a roof rack by far..... Proas are amazing, I love them!!!

    https://youtu.be/QFGiWiV9-ko

    Keep Shunting, Balkan Shipyards.

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    Default Re: Just b4 micro cruising, rigging, decking and more...

    I just watched the video of you sailing, when you shunt, then turn on the “super charger”. Too much fun, Bro.

    For your leaky hatches, it might be easiest to build a little lip around the outside of your lids, you know? Then the water has to get up over, down under, and up over again. Not totally fool proof, like the shunting, but cheaper than buying some rubber what’s its, and I bet you have some 19mm square stock somewhere eh?

    I think you should change the name of your shop, by the by, to Balkan ShuntYards.

    I hope you have a great cruise. Keep Lashunking, Rael.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Just b4 micro cruising, rigging, decking and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    I just watched the video of you sailing, when you shunt, then turn on the “super charger”. Too much fun, Bro.

    For your leaky hatches, it might be easiest to build a little lip around the outside of your lids, you know? Then the water has to get up over, down under, and up over again. Not totally fool proof, like the shunting, but cheaper than buying some rubber what’s its, and I bet you have some 19mm square stock somewhere eh?

    I think you should change the name of your shop, by the by, to Balkan ShuntYards.

    I hope you have a great cruise. Keep Lashunking, Rael.

    Peace,
    Robert
    Brother Rob, Yea, going around may be the best way..... I'm just kinda lazy by now.... so thinking of sticking rubber strips, ready to go with sticky backs on'em for windows kida'thing..... Directly inside under the lid..... and what will be will be...... Then again, it ain't that hard to just glue a strip o'wood all round.... still gonna need a few holes under them, so we don't collect a small swimming pool round d hatch, hey???

    Balkan Shuntyards........ cool!!!!
    Oh yea Rob, I'm gonna LaShunk my way round Greece, can't wait!!!!!

    Take care bro! Keep Shunting!!
    BSY.

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    Default Re: Just b4 micro cruising, rigging, decking and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by rael dobkins View Post
    A full walk round of Pacific Proa Make O'Break, just b4 autumn cruising of Greek islands I tweak the rig and deck him up.......

    The marriage of an outrigger and a Chinese Junk turned out to be very successful, finally I have a micro cruiser I can trust!

    I feel this package is the most boat to the buck and the most boat for a roof rack by far..... Proas are amazing, I love them!!!

    https://youtu.be/QFGiWiV9-ko

    Keep Shunting, Balkan Shipyards.
    Rael, your description - " marriage of an outrigger and Chinese Junk" might be apt, and thinking about the craft after looking at the youtube vid (above) had me wondering about dimensions. Then, in an attempt too gauge things by having a closer look, I find the vid is now restricted from my viewing.
    In order to keep the proa compact enough for car-top transport, it seems you have opted for a double ender Dory or Sampan to serve as the vaka or lee hull in the case of an Oceanic proa. This is a novel approach...... something like the reverse of a harryproa in that the fat hull is to lee rather than the skinny one and it obviously does the trick from the car carrying side, to produce a kind of a micro sailer. Interesting, and i wonder how it compares in dimensions to the Bernd Kholer(K design's) 'cataproa' ?

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    Default Re: Just b4 micro cruising, rigging, decking and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Rael, your description - " marriage of an outrigger and Chinese Junk" might be apt, and thinking about the craft after looking at the youtube vid (above) had me wondering about dimensions. Then, in an attempt too gauge things by having a closer look, I find the vid is now restricted from my viewing.
    In order to keep the proa compact enough for car-top transport, it seems you have opted for a double ender Dory or Sampan to serve as the vaka or lee hull in the case of an Oceanic proa. This is a novel approach...... something like the reverse of a harryproa in that the fat hull is to lee rather than the skinny one and it obviously does the trick from the car carrying side, to produce a kind of a micro sailer. Interesting, and i wonder how it compares in dimensions to the Bernd Kholer(K design's) 'cataproa' ?

    Lugalong, the vid seems to work at my end fine, Please tell me if you continue having problems....
    Dimensions are 4.6 meter Vaka, 4 meter ama with about the same length waterline.
    The Vaka is very wide, not ideal, since it does slow him down, but he can take a load......Still I think better to be a bit deeper and narrower for better speed, then again it came out to be a pretty good compromise, easy beaching, car topping, zero draft and can carry a load.......
    This was a junk canoe I built years ago, I pulled it out the rubbish pile and converted it into a proa so I could test my new rig....... I absolutely love some features of this canoe and will keep on working along these lines......

    Bernard's Cataproa I really don't know the dimensions.... There's a clip on youtube where he shares that, still, the 2 craft a VERY different and I prefer Make O'Break...... But he can have a hot cup of tea inside the cabin........

    Keep Shunting,
    BSY.

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    Default Re: Just b4 micro cruising, rigging, decking and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by rael dobkins View Post
    Lugalong, the vid seems to work at my end fine, Please tell me if you continue having problems....
    Dimensions are 4.6 meter Vaka, 4 meter ama with about the same length waterline.
    The Vaka is very wide, not ideal, since it does slow him down, but he can take a load......Still I think better to be a bit deeper and narrower for better speed, then again it came out to be a pretty good compromise, easy beaching, car topping, zero draft and can carry a load.......
    This was a junk canoe I built years ago, I pulled it out the rubbish pile and converted it into a proa so I could test my new rig....... I absolutely love some features of this canoe and will keep on working along these lines......

    Bernard's Cataproa I really don't know the dimensions.... There's a clip on youtube where he shares that, still, the 2 craft a VERY different and I prefer Make O'Break...... But he can have a hot cup of tea inside the cabin........

    Keep Shunting,
    BSY.

    Later in the day the vid ws available, so I had another look and guessed length to be 16ft, but as you say length on the water is 13 ft, which turns out to be about the same as the 'cataproa'.
    Sure, the dory-like hull will be a load bearer and if that is what you want, you just have to live with the performance limitation.
    Main reason why I brought-up the cataproa comparison is because that design is able to step an unstayed mast, that suits a Junk sail and sheeting system. although, I have t admit that the sheltered accomodation offered there ( in the K design) is appreciated.
    Nevertheless, having proa sailing experience as well as some thousands of miles with a Junk sail that used rigging, I grasp what is goingon with your rig.
    Looking forward to to hearing how the Greek Islands outing goes and yep, keep shunting.

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    Default Re: Just b4 micro cruising, rigging, decking and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Later in the day the vid ws available, so I had another look and guessed length to be 16ft, but as you say length on the water is 13 ft, which turns out to be about the same as the 'cataproa'.
    Sure, the dory-like hull will be a load bearer and if that is what you want, you just have to live with the performance limitation.
    Main reason why I brought-up the cataproa comparison is because that design is able to step an unstayed mast, that suits a Junk sail and sheeting system. although, I have t admit that the sheltered accomodation offered there ( in the K design) is appreciated.
    Nevertheless, having proa sailing experience as well as some thousands of miles with a Junk sail that used rigging, I grasp what is goingon with your rig.
    Looking forward to to hearing how the Greek Islands outing goes and yep, keep shunting.
    You know that it's all balance..... At sea performance comes at the cost of comfort and vice versa........
    Such a small hull with such a big cabin where you can have a hot cup o'tea will not take you to windward. Nether will that small low aspect sail.

    I prefer performance over comfort for now.... Make O'break is engineless so getting to windward is a must.
    We both understand the importance of rigging! I wouldn't want a shroudless proa, cos nothing raises that ama better than the good old windward shroud, and nothing relieves aka stress better than that good old windward shroud..... So yea, I feel that multies need rigging to hold up their masts, a mono can heel and spill a gust, a multi will drop the mast in the sea and spill that gust..... They just cant heel.

    The biggest stress relief a multi can have is a stayed mast, on a proa things get much better since the mast is planted over the vaka, vs a cat where mast is loading akas, or a tri where whole vessel is leaning over leeward akas..... A proa has 2 flimsy akas that are only keeping ama away from vaka, they are never loaded, nether heavy not complicated to make but still form the strongest multihull of all.

    It's that balance that must be kept, a sacred triangle Vaka, Ama, Mast Head, remove the shroud and it's all lost..........

    My 2 cents anyway.... All d best.
    Rael.

    Keep Shunting, BSY.

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    Default Re: Just b4 micro cruising, rigging, decking and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by rael dobkins View Post
    You know that it's all balance..... At sea performance comes at the cost of comfort and vice versa........
    Such a small hull with such a big cabin where you can have a hot cup o'tea will not take you to windward. Nether will that small low aspect sail.

    I prefer performance over comfort for now.... Make O'break is engineless so getting to windward is a must.
    We both understand the importance of rigging! I wouldn't want a shroudless proa, cos nothing raises that ama better than the good old windward shroud, and nothing relieves aka stress better than that good old windward shroud..... So yea, I feel that multies need rigging to hold up their masts, a mono can heel and spill a gust, a multi will drop the mast in the sea and spill that gust..... They just cant heel.

    The biggest stress relief a multi can have is a stayed mast, on a proa things get much better since the mast is planted over the vaka, vs a cat where mast is loading akas, or a tri where whole vessel is leaning over leeward akas..... A proa has 2 flimsy akas that are only keeping ama away from vaka, they are never loaded, nether heavy not complicated to make but still form the strongest multihull of all.

    It's that balance that must be kept, a sacred triangle Vaka, Ama, Mast Head, remove the shroud and it's all lost..........

    My 2 cents anyway.... All d best.
    Rael.

    Keep Shunting, BSY.
    Not suggesting that the critical w/ward shroud should be lost and I agree that much windage hampers windward performance, but still, I want shelter and a place to at least boil a pot. Then I also want natural fibre spars as a prominent feature on a wooden canoe.These are things that could be had at the same time as an A frame swing mast and Junk sail.Yard and battens could be bamboo, indeed even the A frame mast could be bamboo, if giant bamboo was available.
    So I'l go along with dropping the cataproa as an option to keel step an unstayed mast, or for that matter any other proa configuration that aims to do away with rigging keep the mast standing.
    Seeing what you are doing has helped me to at least see the potential in using a Junk sail like this on a proa, because when I first heard about this idea, that I think one Michael Schacht might have come up with, it figured that it was a configuration that would need some forcing to make it work.
    Now the challenge seems to be exactly how large it can become and still be manageable. So for a start i would suggest seeing how it works out to take the stays further out from the mast, to near the ends of the ama.
    Getting away without being back-winded for 4 or so days sailing on the Black Sea is one thing, but the stay angle (of both fore and aft stays) is pretty steep, and the battens make contact with them as soon as back-winded.By allowing the sail to fall off a little(when back-winded), risk of breakable could be reduced.

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    Default Re: Just b4 micro cruising, rigging, decking and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Not suggesting that the critical w/ward shroud should be lost and I agree that much windage hampers windward performance, but still, I want shelter and a place to at least boil a pot. Then I also want natural fibre spars as a prominent feature on a wooden canoe.These are things that could be had at the same time as an A frame swing mast and Junk sail.Yard and battens could be bamboo, indeed even the A frame mast could be bamboo, if giant bamboo was available.
    So I'l go along with dropping the cataproa as an option to keel step an unstayed mast, or for that matter any other proa configuration that aims to do away with rigging keep the mast standing.
    Seeing what you are doing has helped me to at least see the potential in using a Junk sail like this on a proa, because when I first heard about this idea, that I think one Michael Schacht might have come up with, it figured that it was a configuration that would need some forcing to make it work.
    Now the challenge seems to be exactly how large it can become and still be manageable. So for a start i would suggest seeing how it works out to take the stays further out from the mast, to near the ends of the ama.
    Getting away without being back-winded for 4 or so days sailing on the Black Sea is one thing, but the stay angle (of both fore and aft stays) is pretty steep, and the battens make contact with them as soon as back-winded.By allowing the sail to fall off a little(when back-winded), risk of breakable could be reduced.
    I guess you meant moving stays further out towards ends of vaka. It will get in the way of the sheet if moved aft, sheet needs to be after back stay, so it can climg up the sail, as multiple junk sheets do without scraping against the back stay.... The only way sheet coming off the top battens wont scrape against back stay is if it's outside the stay. One could move the sheet on the top battens forward to prevent this problem, but then the batten will just snap, since sheet will be pulling on it in the middle, while wind bends the leech off to leeward.

    Things aren't as simple as they seem, there are many compromises in this concept that came together...........
    The 'LaShunK' is a pure 'Balkan Shipyards' that arose after getting almost shipwrecked and injured with crab claws, I have countless notepads full of drawings. This rig is one of many concepts I designed and drew, over a period of about 2 years. some even made it to become models and went through a very freestyle wind tunnel, where I tested lift at different wind angles...... I was using a compressor and the power bills I came up with over a couple months of rig testing where thousands of percents higher than my usual ones. My compressor was smoking while I was testing rigs, I learned a lot, above all I learned what doesn't work, and it's always the failures that lead to success. Once again failure never let me down, high tension earlier concepts of various wishbone rigs, various crazy Balestron versions that I can't even explain without pen and paper...... All these weird high tension concepts proved to be exactly what I'm against, expensive, high load, bar tight, modern and fragile......

    I am very happy with the back stay position and I don't think anything would be gained by moving it, on the contrary..... That's the beauty of building models and truly testing things before you put all your savings into a full size failure.

    Michael Schacht may have sketched junk rigs on his various designs, though never has anyone used an 'A frame' system of yard, held up by a mast that moves a junk sail fore and aft. Never has a Junk rigged proa had CE this far ahead as the 'LaShunK' has. This rig is so flexible that I can get back winded all day long and nothing breaks! even better I keep on sailing and gybe back to pacific mode. No other proa rig can do this, James Brett the designer and builder of Proa 'Free Radical' that is Junk rigged, told me that once back winded, he sails back and can 'reverse' his proa back into pacific mode. I learned my self how to reverse out of a back winded state, with my second proa 'Why Not?' and his Crab Claw. Though nothing keeps sailing forward once back winded except the 'LaShunK'. Nothing recovers from a back winding like this rig.

    It's not as simple as it looks.........
    I guess.

    Keep LaShunKing,
    Balkan Shipyards.

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    Default Re: Just b4 micro cruising, rigging, decking and more...

    Rael, my wording in that last message was obviously not very good.....I rushed that off and should probably have been more careful in the drafting, or at least done some editing.
    No I do not mean to say the stays should be moved out towards the ends of the vaka.
    Your 'La Shunk' design seems to be ( by your admission) a unique and finely tuned creation, so as such, you have ownership and the right to keep it exactly as you like.
    Thing for me is that I recognized the 5 panel sail (with conventional yard and battens) as being pretty much exactly what I had and used when sailing about 1/2 way around the world, although, the mast was conventional; that was a monohull, but I now have a Pacific proa double canoe and am interested in the option of a rig that might be manageable in the event I get too old and feeble to manage a split rig.
    What grabbed me (seeing you sailing 'Make O Break', was the similarity in the way the sheeting system functioned as a back-stay system,much like I had with the battened lug sail on my boat, albeit there were shrouds to hold the mast from bending sideways(athwartship), but no back staying at all. So the multi-part sheet acted as a back stay, bearing in mind that the mast was fixed and standing, with bury between partners and keel step.
    On a proa we don't need a pair of shrouds, but we do need a pair of stays and with a mast stepped near midway between the shroud chainplate and the centreline of the vaka, there is a 3way support system to the rig, with the stays acting as a w/ward shroud in a back-wind situation.This means there can be considerable tension and compression when the wind comes from the 'wrong side'.
    Now, accepting that your tubular track helps to brace the two legged mast when back-winded, the tension in the stays might not be so critical?
    I'm accepting that even the seemingly wobbly tube you have as a foot track is effective enough to keep the rig standing, so therefore a sturdier track with a car that keeps the foot of the leeward mast leg down good and proper, is going to further ease up on stay tension.
    When sailing with ama to w/ward and only the conventional proa shroud in tension, then all we need is back-staying.Here, as I am familiar with and have stated, the Junk sheeting system does an admirable job in leiw of runners....... as long as there is no other backstay to foul things.
    Sure, I am suggesting a change from what you have and have to agree that it would thus not be a true 'La Shunk', just a Junk sail variation - in that there is still a conventional yard, along with battens and the Junk sheeting system.Then there is the twin legged 'thing' that I am calling a mast -- in error apparently, but forgive me, I just don't see how it works out to have two yards, when one of them is hoisted just like an ordinary one on a Junk sail.

    As on conventional proas, tensioned stays are not needed, as long as the shroud carries most of the loading, but we need either a peaked yard to make a straight leading edge, otherwise the leeward leg of the twin member mast keeps the luff in line, as per the conventional Junk sail.
    In case of using a twin legged mast, I would like a pair of slack-ish runners to keep the mast up when the sheets are slackened, so have suggested having these taken out to the ama, not the vaka ends.Maybe it is too simple a solution?. I certainly won't be building this before at least making a mock-up, and do not expect it to be workable with "flimsy akas" that allow the the ama to pitch a whole lot.
    As things have gone with newly invented things in the modern proa world, there is usually confusion for as long as unusual (newly invented) parts have not been categorised...... like with your Balkan 'yard' that looks confusingly similar to mast as used on a Chinese or battened lug sail, but of course there has rarely been a car and track at the foot of a junk rig mast, let alone a two legged mast. In fact there are people who insist that a junk rig has to have a free standing mast. So i can't be sure where we go with that in considering this rig's position.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 09-27-2019 at 08:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Just b4 micro cruising, rigging, decking and more...

    Lugalong,
    Thanks for clearing it all up.......
    I first must explain that I believe the sail is held up by a yard that is held up by a mast, exactly as an Arab Lateen sail is fixed to a moving spar which is a yard that is supported by a fixed mast. My concept looks like an A frame mast, but it clearly is not since an A frame is fixed and doesn't move. The LaShunK is a hybrid Lateen rig with junk sail rigged to it. That works like an Oceanic Lateen since it moves from one side of the boat to the other.

    The flimsy yard rail on this rig must be so, cos as the mast moves over it erects, then falls back down on the new shunt. I had many problems while full size testing of this rig, at times the yard would keep going and pass the aka, cos yard reached its end destination while mast was still at full height. eventually mast would come down and yard would smash the deck past the aka. Sometimes it would do the opposite as mast would fall into new position, though yard was late doing it's half turn, causing it to fall low early resulting in it ramming into the side of the hull. That flimsy pipe that can easily go up or down at any time, will compensate the two spars. Never mind who is early and who comes late, it guides things home every time, cos it ends where it ends.....

    The Yard Rail, doesn't hold the Yard in back winding, the block and cleated endless line do that, no need for a hard rail I think, like I said above, it must be flexible, otherwise it will jam. What keeps this rig up is the wide base between the spars, the cleated yard and the back stay. the sail leans on the back stay, and compresses the mast...... It really works well.

    Flimsy akas are so, cos they aren't heavy duty over built beams like a catamaran needs, they are half the weight but still result in a stronger boat, anyway, flimsy does not mean flexy..... I also don't really like flexible akas, I thought they were brilliant at first, I got older............

    I will say, the sail of this hybrid is a junk sail, it's connected to a moving spar which would not be a mast cos a mast is always fixed to one point on deck, so it's a Lateen style Shunting Junk, or just a LaShunK. Still it's name isn't half as good as how it WORKS!!!

    Lugalong, lets BUILD PROAS!!! I respect the fact that you're on the ball, you also have a lot of miles under your belt, you even have a PROA!! It's people like you I want. I got tired of all the know alls of the internet world, that think they are Polynesians and they are going to go cruising with their Crab Claw proas while they have never sailed in more than a F3 on a lake. I will say Proas almost put me off sailing, no other boat got me into so much trouble like proas have..... Still, this new rig brought back my confidence millions of times more than what I ever imagined! Tweak it as much as you want, call it what you want, JUST BUILD IT, please.

    If you have any questions I can answer, I will do my best to do just so.
    Keep Shunting brother.
    Rael.

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    Default Re: Just b4 micro cruising, rigging, decking and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by rael dobkins View Post
    Lugalong,
    Thanks for clearing it all up.......
    I first must explain that I believe the sail is held up by a yard that is held up by a mast, exactly as an Arab Lateen sail is fixed to a moving spar which is a yard that is supported by a fixed mast. My concept looks like an A frame mast, but it clearly is not since an A frame is fixed and doesn't move. The LaShunK is a hybrid Lateen rig with junk sail rigged to it. That works like an Oceanic Lateen since it moves from one side of the boat to the other.

    The flimsy yard rail on this rig must be so, cos as the mast moves over it erects, then falls back down on the new shunt. I had many problems while full size testing of this rig, at times the yard would keep going and pass the aka, cos yard reached its end destination while mast was still at full height. eventually mast would come down and yard would smash the deck past the aka. Sometimes it would do the opposite as mast would fall into new position, though yard was late doing it's half turn, causing it to fall low early resulting in it ramming into the side of the hull. That flimsy pipe that can easily go up or down at any time, will compensate the two spars. Never mind who is early and who comes late, it guides things home every time, cos it ends where it ends.....

    The Yard Rail, doesn't hold the Yard in back winding, the block and cleated endless line do that, no need for a hard rail I think, like I said above, it must be flexible, otherwise it will jam. What keeps this rig up is the wide base between the spars, the cleated yard and the back stay. the sail leans on the back stay, and compresses the mast...... It really works well.

    Flimsy akas are so, cos they aren't heavy duty over built beams like a catamaran needs, they are half the weight but still result in a stronger boat, anyway, flimsy does not mean flexy..... I also don't really like flexible akas, I thought they were brilliant at first, I got older............

    I will say, the sail of this hybrid is a junk sail, it's connected to a moving spar which would not be a mast cos a mast is always fixed to one point on deck, so it's a Lateen style Shunting Junk, or just a LaShunK. Still it's name isn't half as good as how it WORKS!!!

    Lugalong, lets BUILD PROAS!!! I respect the fact that you're on the ball, you also have a lot of miles under your belt, you even have a PROA!! It's people like you I want. I got tired of all the know alls of the internet world, that think they are Polynesians and they are going to go cruising with their Crab Claw proas while they have never sailed in more than a F3 on a lake. I will say Proas almost put me off sailing, no other boat got me into so much trouble like proas have..... Still, this new rig brought back my confidence millions of times more than what I ever imagined! Tweak it as much as you want, call it what you want, JUST BUILD IT, please.

    If you have any questions I can answer, I will do my best to do just so.
    Keep Shunting brother.
    Rael.
    Rael, if I get around to building and sailing with a battened lug'sl on a proa, it will have to done based on definite geometry, because my proa is a little too big for chopping and changing to suit variation of dimensions at critical points, plus I have no workshop to facilitate a trial and error build method. As I have already stated - when first hearing of this type of swinging tack sail, my concern was that there would be need in forcing it to work, and this might be true if the plane of the arc that the tack takes, indeed needs to be variable.
    You say that it does so, because the bottom end of the "yard" is sometimes a little too short or else a little too long, which I appreciate, having built and sailed a number of oceanic Lateen rigged shunters. As soon as the mast is raked, the plane of rotation followed by the heel of the yard re-aligns in situ with change in rake.
    Compensating for these changes by allowing the tack arc to 'float', might well be expedient in some cases ( such as yours, with this particular canoe) and if it works to get you some time out on the water, then all good and well.
    Understanding and describing the components, the design and geometry of the whole package is important to me, though. Shunting proas as a multihull option, started for me back in 1975, when I was not fortunate enough to have money or building facilities to get going on cobbling things together. Studying and drawing had to make do for a long time. So as a result, provenance of design and type matters.
    Oceanic canoes, with in some cases many thousands of years development, are recogonised, as is the case with Junk sails. Improving these (where possible), by application of modern technology or a new ideas, might be admirable. Inventing names for things - like Richard Newick did for the fully bonded connecting beams on proa Cheers( called 'akas' by him) is Ok too, but going so far out as to claim the invention of a "Arab lateen"/Chinese Junk hybrid makes no sense to me.

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