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Thread: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    That's a nice piece of CVG DF. The reason it costs so much in PA is because it grows on the Left Coast and has to be shipped across the country. There may be local woods in your area that are acceptable, but any kind of maple ain't one of them. Check with local builders in your area for advice. I wouldn't hesitate to use black walnut, unless it was kiln dried and steamed, as most commercial walnut is these days. A small sawyer, or an arborist with a mill is a good person to know.

    That DF ripped into 1/4 or 3/16 lams will bend easily for the CY stems whether it's flat or vertical grain. No worries. You will need a stout bending form and lots of clamps when bending a stack of six or more lams.
    Read your plans carefully and be sure to find that one page sheet that has the foot extension for the fore stem. Others have missed that little detail and ended up with a stem that's a foot short.

    Different woods can certainly be used for stems and keel. You will be doing a lot of planing on the keel for the GBD land, so a wood that's easy to work would be a consideration. I went with sapele for most of the backbone and outer aft stem, and DF for the inner and outer fore stems.

    The outer fore stem can be bent right over the inner stem once the epoxy on the inner stem has set. The advantage of doing both inner and outer stem at the same time is that the outer stem will fit perfectly over the inner stem once the planking is done.

    Here's a pic of the bending jig I used for the fore stem:

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    I am not so sure about black walnut, see if you can find "USDA wood handbook" it is a bit brittle. Would be great for trim. I'd go with yellow pine before BW. Make your life easy and stick with the DF. TerryLL is right about flat sawn vs VG Doug Fir for bending stems. Flat sawn with extensive grain run out may have issues.

    I am sure others will comment on this issue.
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Thanks for all your input!


    @Steamboat


    very nice build, you are really going from scratch, impressive. If I would do that the boat would never be finished….


    It is not so much that I am afraid of the price. I don’t have a lot of experience with buying solid wood, if this stuff is expensive because of a good reason then thats OK.




    @jsjpd1
    Here are my small but well chosen library about wooden boat building. Both talk about wood characteristics, selection rot resistance and so on but sometimes it is good to hear some actual experiences from other people.









    @TerryLL


    thanks for the hint in regard of the stem length, I was already wondering that what is shown in the drawing might no be long enough.




    I made a little drawing how to cut the lams from 2X6 vertical grain stock, like Terry explained it in #55. Doing this on a table saw I might get six 3/16 lams from one 2x2.5” piece. Cutting on the band saw might be better, smaller kerf, not so much waste, but I am not sure if I can resaw wood of this length precisely enough.


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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Use a thin-kerf blade on your table saw. You can cut the lams a hair oversize and then plane, or cut them to the final size and skip the planing. Epoxy is not fussy about slight irregularities.

    Your initial rip of the rough stock can be reduced to 2-1/4 or even 2-1/8 to reduce waste. Leave enough so the sides of the glued-up stem can be cleaned down to the finished dimension.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Not much about boat building during the last days and the holiday weekend.

    I decided not to order the kit before I had cleaned and reorganized my basement shop as well as finished other projects and improved my dust collection system. Thus I started with the projects who needed to be finished.
    I used the two heavy laminations I made recently as table top for my workbench, which therefore had to be a little bit "redesigned".
    Then the laminations where cut to length and eventually went thru the planer. It is always amazing what this little DeWalt planer is capable to do. Now I have a pretty sturdy workbench, the only things missing is a bench vise and some holes for the bench dogs.














    I put up a rack on the wall for my clamps, not so many OK ....so I am watching different woodworking stores for possible sales events.





    There is more on my toDo list, I need a dedicated place for the epoxy which will be equipped with a low-wattage warmer mat to keep the epoxy at the right temp. Basement is already at 65 and will go further down with temp.

    The almost half done little boat you can see in the beginning of this thread was initially planned as a crib for my son, however this little guy decided to show up almost 6 weeks earlier than scheduled. Therefore I couldn't finish the little boat in time and we had to buy something. I think I should finish it before I start to work on the caledonia yawl.

    I am still struggling with the wood selection for the outer stem and keelson, the inner one will be DF. Sure, I could use DF for both. The guy here (http://holz-boot.com/caledonia-yawl/...cheuerleisten/) used Sapele which really looks good. I also thought about quater sawn white Oak but don't know if that is suitable. I do have a steamer, so I could steam bend it before gluing.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    I'd encourage you to go with the sapele for the keelson and floors. It is harder than American mahogany, glues very well, holds fastenings very well, and is easy to work. It is quite stiff and you may have to reduce the thickness of the lams if you use it for the outer stem.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Hey all, just want to share the highlights of my solo sail today on my CY Dragonfly, reaffirm what an awesome boat this is, and give you some inspiration for building. Sorry no pix as I was having too much fun.

    I took the day off work, got to the launch about 8 am, 40F and clear with a nice thermal wind building. Raised the masts in the parking lot, launched and rowed off shore about 400 yards to get some leeway. Dropped the centerboard and rudder, unfurled and set the mizzen in hard and the boat swung bow to wind and I was heaved to, snug as can be. Stowed all the fenders, oars and picked up all the detritus. Starting to see some whitecaps now and waves building but all is calm on my little boat. Poured another cup of coffee, and decided two reefs in the main was about right so I put in three to start off slow and so perhaps I could eat breakfast on the fly. Raised the main, eased the mizzen and I was sailing. Tweaked the main and mizzen sheets to balance and I was off on a beam reach, alternating between sitting on the rail and standing to ease my knees. Wind kept building so I decided three reefs was just perfect and boiled along like that at hull speed for an hour or so until I got hungry. Rounded up to slack the main, sheeted the mizzen in tight, popped the main halyard and we were heaved to again. My little island of calm in the whitecaps. Walked around and stretched, did some housekeeping, ate breakfast and just watched the waves. Decided to sail closer to the wildlife refuge along the shore and see if I could find a connection to that pond that I'd seen once. About 200 yards from the shore I dropped the main and raised centerboard and rudder and broke out the oars again. Rowed up to the cattails but it was a false channel. Wind was offshore at this point, so I stood on the rear deck and used the mizzen like a windsurfer rig and sailed backwards until I was clear of the false channel. Continued to poke along the shore, rowing in and then backsailing out until I finally found the channel, but alas it was too shallow. Backsailed out until well clear of the shoals, and heaved to while I made a new plan. After noon now and morning thermals had died, so I shook out all of the reefs, raised the main, clipped the tiller in neutral and then balanced the sheets. Walked around and did more housekeeping and got lunch while Dragonfly sailed herself in the light wind. About 5 miles back to the launch from here, so thought about getting out the outboard if the wind died completely as I have not fired it up this year. But after a long lazy lunch the wind started to rise and pretty soon we were cooking along at hull speed again. Ran all the way back to about half mile from the launch, heaved to, and put all of the sailing kit away. Pulled rudder, dropped both masts and calmly rowed back to the launch. I felt like Huck Finn on a grand adventure all day. It doesn't get any better than this!

    Good luck with your builds!
    Scott

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Thanks, Scott! Yesterday was a busy day for me, too. I found out I was within 90 miles of a marine plywood + douglas fir provider, so I had to make a road trip. I got my planking ply and spine & floor timber and should begin the build on Monday. Been waiting 3 years for this. I'm already having a blast!

    Dan

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    @Scott
    Sounds like an awesome day on the water. Thanks for sharing the experience!

    @Dan
    I will get a new dust collection this week and will most likely start with the build next weekend.


    OK
    I checked with my local lumber yard and they have quite a good assortment of Sapele boards in all sizes, one, two or three inch thickness. So I went back to the plans to figure out what minimum length I will need. Just by measuring the length on the plans it appeared to short compared to the pictures I have seen and I remembered the comment from terryLL,

    "Read your plans carefully and be sure to find that one page sheet that has the foot extension for the fore stem. Others have missed that little detail and ended up with a stem that's a foot short."

    however, I was not able to find this information in the plans so far.
    So I feel a kind of blind or stupid right now....

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Quote Originally Posted by PILOTARIX View Post

    OK
    I checked with my local lumber yard and they have quite a good assortment of Sapele boards in all sizes, one, two or three inch thickness. So I went back to the plans to figure out what minimum length I will need. Just by measuring the length on the plans it appeared to short compared to the pictures I have seen and I remembered the comment from terryLL,

    "Read your plans carefully and be sure to find that one page sheet that has the foot extension for the fore stem. Others have missed that little detail and ended up with a stem that's a foot short."

    however, I was not able to find this information in the plans so far.
    So I feel a kind of blind or stupid right now....
    I may have misled you with that comment. That extra sheet showing the foot of the stem is in my plans for the original 4-strake. It's a 9X11 sheet of paper included in the info packet with the specifications. IO may have redrawn the stems in the CY-II to include the full stem length. I hope someone here who is building the 7-strake can clarify.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    RE: the 'one page sheet'

    On Terry & my CY I plans, there is an extra 8x11" piece of paper that is supposed to supplement the full-size stem patterns. Could it be that the CY II plans just don't have this? I am learning that there are quite a few variations between the two boat aside from one being 4-strake and the other 7-strake.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    On my CY II (7-Strake) plans there is a 11 1/2 X 16 1/2 "Stem Extension" sheet that is attached to the lower left corner of the Stem Pattern - Sheet 8. It also adds about a foot of length to the Apron and Stem.

    Bill
    Last edited by wlitsch; 09-06-2014 at 01:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    OK guys,


    now I was getting really curious. I checked all the pages again no hint to the stem extension, no additional page.
    I checked every piece of paper that was coming with the plans, nothing. Finally I checked the shipping box who was still lying around and ups... there you go...there was one piece of paper left in the box which I had not seen before. The missing stem extension drawing...


    Thanks for the hint.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Happy days.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    some update ....


    finally I got my new dust collection, a nice piece of Sapele (3x6" 7') and almost finished the upper part of something like a manning bench.


    Now I am in the process of preparing the lamination. I got a piece of 3/4" plywood 4x4' (which is almost to small) some carbon copy paper and some thumbtacks. While aligning which stem extension which has been drawn on an extra piece of paper, I realized that this cannot be done exactly. If one of the markings is aligned perfect the other one seems to be somewhat off. However, the lines of the stem transition smoothly so I would assume this is Ok, or not ?







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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Looks good. The most important line is the inner line of the inner stem, because that will be the line used to make your laminating jig. Your goal is to have that line be perfectly fair, no dips, no hollows, no jags. After you get that line pricked onto the wood you'll be using for the bending jig, you should take a fairly stiff batten and spring it against the points to insure that the entire curve is fair. Remember, in boatbuilding, fair is good enough.

    Are you planning to rip the sapele and then scarf it for the keelson?

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    I plan to use the Sapele for the laminations. While it is 3X6 I could just mill it down to 2 1/4, the board is not perfectly flat anyhow, and then cut 3/16 strips. In the meanwhile I got a new saw blade blade with a thin kerf. While the board has vertical grain the resulting strips would be flat sawn.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Quote Originally Posted by PILOTARIX View Post
    I plan to use the Sapele for the laminations. While it is 3X6 I could just mill it down to 2 1/4, the board is not perfectly flat anyhow, and then cut 3/16 strips. In the meanwhile I got a new saw blade blade with a thin kerf. While the board has vertical grain the resulting strips would be flat sawn.
    That should work fine. Sapele is quite a bit stiffer than DF, so 3/16" lams will be better than 1/4". You will get some spring-back when you release the cured lamination from the form, but I can't say how much with sapele. Even with significant spring-back ( say an inch) the stem is perfectly usable. You're not building a class racer, so an extra inch in length is no problem.

    Why not rip that sapele into two chunks 2.25 X 3 and then rip lams that are 2.25 X 3/16? Milling the whole slab to 2.25 is just a waste of wood.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryLL View Post
    .............
    Why not rip that sapele into two chunks 2.25 X 3 and then rip lams that are 2.25 X 3/16? Milling the whole slab to 2.25 is just a waste of wood.
    Basically you are right.

    I was thinking about safety. It might be safer cutting strips from a 6" board instead of a 3" board. If the remaining piece gets thinner than an inch, it becomes a little uncomfortable I think.
    I will see how much wood will already been wasted after I had flatten the board, if that is not to much I will try your approach. I have seen an older thread (can not find it anymore) with information that "quarter sawn" laminations are tougher than "flat sawn", does that really make a big difference?

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Quote Originally Posted by PILOTARIX View Post
    Basically you are right.

    I was thinking about safety. It might be safer cutting strips from a 6" board instead of a 3" board. If the remaining piece gets thinner than an inch, it becomes a little uncomfortable I think.
    I will see how much wood will already been wasted after I had flatten the board, if that is not to much I will try your approach. I have seen an older thread (can not find it anymore) with information that "quarter sawn" laminations are tougher than "flat sawn", does that really make a big difference?
    Nah. You can rip right down to the very last 3/16" lam. Use push sticks, keeping those fingers a safe distance away, and have the blade set for minimum exposure above the kerf.

    Nah again on the VG or flat sawn question. Just remember to reverse every other lam to reduce the chance of a running split.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    @TerryLL
    Thanks for your advice!


    Today I am little bit closer to boat building, basically I can say that I have really started now.
    I finished the "manning bench like" work bench. It has the same hight like my stationary workbench so I can use it in the basement to glue up the planks, later into the build it will go into the garage.


    I took the Sapele board into the basement and while on the workbench I realized that it is a kind of crooked. I planed one face as good as possible with a hand plane and send it through the planer, finally ready for the table saw. I wished I had a jointer , it would have been much easier and probably more accurate.
    Because I was not sure how accurate my cut will be the first cut was 1/4" and need to got through he planer. The cut surface itself is very smooth thus planing is not really necessary, only to get the correct thickness.
    I clamped the board into the jig and it bends relatively easy.










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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    done for today...

    finally I cut all the strips for the inner forward stem, not really any issues. The very last cut was a little tricky, the remaining piece was only a 1/4".Generally the cut surfaces are OK but there are some burn marks, so I have to do some sanding. I would assume that burn marks on glue surfaces are not really ideal.
    The resulting thickness of the "pack" is just a little over 2", how much thickness will the epoxy add?

    I did a dry test run, it is easier to bend the stack than I thought it would be. I bought some West System Epoxy, which I had never used before. Thus I going to do a test run with some scrap wood to see how mixing and thickening works, before I go "live".




  23. #93
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Looking good Chris. The epoxy will add essentially nothing to the thickness of the stem. Be careful not to overclamp. You want just enough pressure to pull all the lams together against the form, with just a bit of ooze-out at each lam. Wet out all mating surfaces with unthickened epoxy first, then brush on a thin layer of thickened epoxy. For laminating, the epoxy should be only slightly thickened, about the consistency of catsup. Download the WEST users guide if you haven't already.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    If you do not already have I would suggest this is worth reading: http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/...k%20061205.pdf
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    @Steamboat,

    thanks for this link!

    lots of good information

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    I ripped the whole 3X6' Sapele board into strips and ended up with barely enough lumber for the forward outer and inner stem. This is a lot of loss despite the thin saw blade. I will need a board with more width for the rear inner and outer stem because the rear outer stem has more thickness than the forward outer stem, or did I get something wrong here?
    Based on the formula I have found in the Gougeon book, the springback will be almost 1/2". Is there a way to avoid this, I mean other than working with paper-thin strips?
    Anyhow...
    Looking to all the literature and the videos from Off Center Harbor, I found different approaches how to use epoxy for laminations. Wet the surface with unthickened epoxy first, put thickened epoxy on both surfaces and so on... I think I will stick with what Geoff Kerr is demonstrating in the videos, thickened epoxy on one side, seems to be good enough.
    Any idea what to do with the burn marks, sanding? Or it doesn't matter?




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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    The least likely to ever fail way to do it is to wet out with thin to saturate the grain, and then go back and add thickened on one side or the other. Just a single layer of thickened is a shortcut that could lead you into trouble with some species, especially if you have added too much thixotrope by mistake. Get into good habits from the get-go, and take the step to assure it is bomber foolproof.

    As far as springback goes, it depends on the species, the curve, and the number/thickness of lams. Easiest way of all to deal with it is to make your blank a bit oversize, allowing you to trim to exact fit. Honestly though, for these stems on this boat, close counts. You'll be spiling your planks off of your actual 3D setup, not from the theoretical curve on a piece of paper, so don't stress it too hard here. Try to get as close as you can, and you'll be fine.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    I wouldn't worry about the burn marks, and rough surfaces are better for epoxy, so unless you have some severe saw marks, I wouldn't sand. I've had good luck laminating both rough "off-the-saw" surfaces and those run through a planer, but you may get a better bond with rough. I try to always wet the surfaces with unthickened epoxy before applying the thickened goop. The last glue-up I did, I painted both surfaces with the unthickened stuff, then just buttered one surface with the thickened slop before clamping. I still got plenty of squeeze-out, so I think it worked okay. Remember not to overtighten your clamps! Good luck! I've built two Oughtred designs so far, and I love his boats.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything"

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Chris,

    I believe Geoff Kerr glues up both inner and outer stems in one operation, using plastic sheeting between. But Geoff has done this a zillion times and can pull off these shortcuts like there's nothing to it. You can certainly glue up your inner stem, let it fully cure, and then glue the outer stem lamination over it as a separate glue job. It's a little less hectic working with 8-10 lams at a time rather than 20 or more.

    If those scorch marks look like the wood is shiny and glazed I'd him them with some 100 grit paper just to roughen them up a bit. Getting a good coat of unthinned epoxy on everything is the key, followed by a light layer of slightly thickened googe. Everyone here is telling you the same thing so don't overthink it.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    All


    thanks for your answers and advice . I will wet both surfaces with unthickened epoxy and only one side with a layer of thickened epoxy.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    OK, I had some funny experience yesterday , something like "how stupid can you be" or maybe a typical newbie boat builder mistake....

    Anyhow...

    The mistake was already made last weekend when I prepared the jig for the laminations. Plan was to laminate the inner stem and then over that the outer stem. You can see what happen in the pictures.
    So I started my first lamination yesterday evening. As we discussed I did wet the strips on both sides with unthickened epoxy, then used thickened epoxy for only one side of the strips. Everything, including clamping the stack into the jig went very smooth. The only down side was that I had way to much epoxy on the pieces and therefore a lot of squeeze out and subsequently waste.

    Hope I can do the outer part of the stem as soon as I have fixed my little mistake.












  32. #102
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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Ha ha ha! Did you glue the clamping blocks right to it? Was that the mistake? Don't worry, they'll plane off.

    Just don't you dare ask me how I can know that for sure.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Hey man, mistakes are the very best way to learn. If you can manage to do things right the first time and every time then I don't even want to talk to you. People like that just tick me off.

    What kind of thickener are you using?

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Ha ha ha! Did you glue the clamping blocks right to it? Was that the mistake? Don't worry, they'll plane off.

    Just don't you dare ask me how I can know that for sure.
    So how many times have you done it!
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

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    Default Re: Caledonia Yawl, newbie builder, pretty close to take the plunge.

    everything is covered with packing tape very thoroughly, thus it shouldn't be an issue to come of the blocks...

    but...

    the blocks are on the wrong side, this is the "inner" stem, the outer stem should be laminated around the inner stem, right..
    That way it doesn't work.
    As long as everything is clamped I will put some blocks on the other side, that way I can laminate the outer stem.

    Setting up the jig I was to busy to make sure that everything was covered with packing tape .... so I got the position of the blocks wrong...

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