Here's a 4-strake beauty currently for sale in ME to whet your whistle...
That would be a real steal even without the wench.
OK guys, let's go back to boat building preparation.
I appreciate all the input.
Very nice boat, interesting rigg. Your points are all well taken.
The jig will not be on simple rollers. I will use rollers which are normally used for heavy work benches to make them movable. By "activating" of the rollers the jig is slightly lifted from the floor and can be moved. Once in position the rollers get "deactivated" and the jig stands sturdy on the floor. I do not plan to move it every day, only if really needed, for e.g. the cars needs to sleep in the garage because of severe weather or so... Most important, having the option makes my wife much happier about the boat build in the garage.
I called Hewes & Company today about the Caledonia Kit. Very nice contact, already got some tips and hints. They will make an offer because the have to figure out what the shipping will be. The Kit is coming with cut outs for front and aft deck. The guy on the phone, who has build a CY, suggest to have an engine. Ii takes almost 4 weeks for the kit to arrive, as I thought, they don't have them on the shelf.
While there is a slight deviation from the original plans in regard to the stem, the recommend to use their plans to laminate the stem. Once I have ordered the kit they will send me the plans upfront, thus I can start working on the stem.
Finally the original set of plans arrived today. Number 158.
The skipper-to-be already checked the design.
I'm sure he will like the sea-saw motion. He should be ready for a circumnavigation in a few months.
The more I dive into the world of boat building the more I realize what I don't know, which is unfortunately a lot.
When I ordered the epoxy last week, I was reminded that epoxy in order to work properly, doesn't like low temperatures. While we are heading towards September, I would guess that the time with epoxy comfortable temperatures in an unheated garage will be over soon. The manufacturer's recommendation is a temperature above 70 degree. While epoxy might still work in lower temperatures, they quality of the bonding might not be as good as the ones done in higher temperatures.
There are obviously a couple of solution for that:
1 keep the epoxy at recommended temperature
2 heat the workpiece
3 heat the garage
4 use epoxy that allows lower temperatures
My plan for that is basically number one, two and maybe four. I don't see a good way to really heat the garage (10' ceiling) effectively without investing money in a very expensive heating device. I would assume that you have to hold the recommended temperature for the whole time the epoxy is curing?
What I have seen on pictures is that some of you build their boats more or less outside and far north than I am located. So what is your experience/solution with epoxy and cold weather?
Cold Cure by System Three is advertised to work down to 35 degrees and 100% humidity.
I built my first boat with the stuff in an unheated basement and it worked fine, but the temp was probably never below 50.
You can spend the coldest months in your basement shop putting together the stems, rudder, CB case, and save the planking for the Spring.
To spend the coldest month in the basement is a good idea, most likely enough to do for a couple of month.
There is low temp hardener from West System too. It will cure, but does it soak into the wood as good as the other stuff, given the low temp?
WEST has excellent free tech support on the phone. Ask them to be sure but I bet the low temp stuff works just fine. I doubt they would sell it if it I didn't.
I haven't used WEST for many years. I do know that they provide excellent user support, so they'd be the ones to ask. Here's a page about cold temperature bonding:
I used WEST System, and though I'd read the instructions carefully on whatever product you choose, I used 40 degrees F as my absolute lower limit for gluing. I never heated the workpiece, but I hear that works, esp. for small areas. I started planking in spring. It seems like that might be a good target for you too?
I, too, started by laminating stems in the basement, and then worked on making the molds from the full-sized patterns. Built the jig next.
Good luck and have fun poring over those plans!
"near it, a small whale-boat, painted red and blue, the delight of the king's old age."
If you look through the building forum you will find many people with your circumstances. Heat lamps and electric blankets are put over the parts being glued, and electric heaters are place under hulls as they are planked. Just some options to consider. Here is one build as an example: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...non+sooty+tern
I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.
Cold Cure was originally made by Industrial Formulators here in British Columbia before they got bought by System Three a few years ago.
"A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman
Thanks for all the input! I think I got the concept.
I will try to avoid the low temp situations either by moving what fits into the basement or by heating the work area/part.
A heater under the hull sounds like a good idea if you have already some planks in place then the warm air get trapped underneath. However, these type of electric devices are not the most reliable and known for some very bad behavior. I have seen an electric heater after hours of use finally overheating with the melting plastic dripping onto the heat source causing a lot of smoke and some flames. So putting a heater under the hull and leaving it there overnight or while I am not at home is not a comfortable idea at all. I will talk to the West System folks next week and ask them about their low temp stuff.
The temp in my basement right now is about 70 degree, I would assume that during winter time the temperature might further decrease to about 60 degree, so even in the basement I will need some additional heat assuming I work with the normal epoxy.
There is another open question. I ordered the wood for the jig and keelson on Saturday, the keelson will be douglas fir. I was a kind of surprised on how expensive that was, a little more than 11$ per foot for 2X6 Douglas Fir with clear vertical grain. Using this stuff for the stem is unfortunately not possible, my lumber dealer can only order it with 2" thickness. He told me that thicker material like 3" need a special order from a supplier in canada with crazy high fee (300$) if he only orders a low amount.
So what material you guys have used for laminating the stem? Shouldn't I use the same wood for the stem as I will use for the keelson?
Doug fir works well for laminating the stems. You'll be ripping the stem lams down to about 3/16 or 1/4, so starting with 2" CVG DF is just right. You can expect some springback if you use 1/4 lams, but hardly any with the 3/16 lams. Be sure to reverse each lam to negate any chance of a split running through the stem. Pics to follow.
Below is a pic of the first stem I did. The wood in CVG DF. I found that using six 1/4-inch lams resulted in about two inches of springback. So I started over using eight 3/16-inch lams and got nearly zero springback. Notice how the grain runs in a different direction in each lam, to prevent any chance of a split stem. This stem went into the dumpster.
Last edited by TerryLL; 08-24-2014 at 05:46 PM.
What they offer me is 2x6 CVG Df rough lumber so after machined it will be below 2" and according to the plans the stem is slightly over two inches or I am wrong ?
So they offerd me a lower grade DF but still pretty clear grain what they can get in 3x6. I ordered a piece big enough to make one of the laminations to see if this is ok
The steps are fully explained in WB 183-184-185. The Geoff Kerr series on building the CY is a must read for new builders, and old ones too.
I, too, am beginning a CY build. I chose the original 4-strake version (just couldn't get over how pretty I thought it was). I have a general question for anyone who might feel they have the experience to answer:
Is a skeg necessary?
Watching Geoff Kerr's videos on OCH has been unbelievably helpful as I trace through the steps in mind before I begin the build, but I noticed that the CY II he built does not have a skeg. Could it just be that the plans are different? I think the non-skeg CY II is more aethetically pleasing, but I certainly don't want to cast-aside a skeg and then not have the boat track.
But, adding the skeg to the keel was a pretty simple thing.
I made patterns first:
Then bandsawed the pieces out of 2' stock:
And glued it all up, with the addition of that small triangular piece of deadwood:
A power planer worked well to taper it down to a 1" face:
Thanks a lot! I think because I have watched Geoff's videos so much whatever he does will appear like Gospel to me, the way to do things, even when it contradicts the designer's plans.
It would be interesting to find out if the CY II plans called for a skeg.
I'm just about to start ordering lumber and there is a strong compulsion to reduce all these 7/8" dimensions (like in the floors, the keel rubbing strip, etc.) down to 3/4" for the ease of buying 1x's. Do you think that's a bad idea?
Also, did you decide to omit the bilge rubbing strips? I can't find pictures of anyone's hull that has them.
Here is a quick and dirty picture that shows the area of concern in a CYII plan. Hope that helps with your question.
I did indeed add the bilge runners. I laminated them to the curve of the hull over a strip of plastic sheeting. Then I removed them, cleaned them up and gave them some taper on the sides, and glued them on permanently. They will be capped with cumaru bedded in dolfinite.
Here they are all cleaned up ready to install:
Iain specifies a stringer on the inside of the hull to strengthen the wide garboard, but that laminated bilge runner did a pretty decent job of it. I might still add the internal GBD stringer.
In retrospect, my CY build would have gone much quicker if I would have simply followed and trusted the designer. In many cases, I spent hours trying to figure out how to customize the boat to do it better than the design. In almost all cases, I eventually figured out that Mr. O drew it that way for a very good reason, after all, he only has about 1,000 times more experience than I.
But, if you have to choose between going bigger or smaller on scantlings go big. The boat ends up being quite light for it's size and many folks add ballast as a result. A little thicker wood here and there (definitely on the floorboards) won't hurt. And if you add the internal stringers be sure to put in drain holes as that spot catches all of the dirt and water.
I am getting closer to the real start of the project. Today the local lumber yard delivers some wood for the ladder frame, keelson and the stem. Thus I can start the ladder frame and working on the laminations. I ordered 2X10 for the ladder frame only because the quality of the 2X10 is often better than the quality of 2x4 and 2x6. I can easily rip them on the table saw to the needed dimension.
I think 2X10 for the ladder frame is a little bit excessively, however the jig should be sturdy because I build it with rollers, to move it around if needed.
So what size of wood usually used for the ladder frame 2x4, 2x6 or 2x8. In most of the pictures and videos I have seen it seems to be 2x6, but I could be wrong.
Plans call for 2X6. Mine is 2X6 on 8-legs. You will walk on frame quite a bit in the early phase of the build while mounting and beveling the keelson, and also while setting up the garboards. The one place you need more information is the placement of the cross braces at the ends of the ladder frame for their position defines the angle of the tops of the stems relative to the plane of the frame and ultimately the bottoms of the stems to the keelson. There it may make your life easier to cut the bottom of the front of the frame down to 2X6. The cross brace at the bow sits below the frame and the brace at the stern end sits on top of the ladder frame.
Need to add this: My description is for BF specified by 7-strake plans and actual thickness of BF is specified as 5-3/4". BF for 4-strake CY may be somewhat different.
Last edited by Steamboat; 08-29-2014 at 08:53 AM. Reason: Add qualifying statement.
I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.
I think you're right about the 2x6 for the ladder frame, at least that seems to be the general minimum I've seen. Congratulations on getting going. You're about 1 1/2 weeks ahead of me :-)
Don't leave off or change the skeg. Don't change the scantlings, making them smaller. Don't cheap out on materials trying to save a little bit of money now for a decision you'll have to live with long term.
Seriously, don't do it. Trying to outguess Iain is a pretty futile hobby. I wouldn't recommend you change anything from the plans unless you genuinely know what you're getting in to, with lots of time on the water and having already built several boats. It's incredibly easier to make it worse than make it any better. The CY is an extremely refined and well-tested package already. Your best bet for custom touches is in fancy hardwoods and clever color schemes, not changes to the very fabric of the boat.
Last edited by James McMullen; 08-29-2014 at 08:05 AM.
I think it is not so important to know everything, it is more important to know what you don't know so you have a chance to ask other people and learn from that.
With this in mind I have to confess that there is still some confusion when I think about how to cut the wood for the laminations.
The lumber yard delivered the clear vertical grain douglas fir 2x6 today. A very nice piece of wood but also very expensive. It is vertical grain, so if I follow what TerryLL mentioned in his post #53 I would end up with vertical grain laminates, or? Aren't they more difficult to bend or is that not a problem if the thickness is only 3/16? Is there a general rule of thumb, to use rather flat grain for laminations than vertical grain?
However, my experience right now is that this type of wood " clear vertical grain douglas fir" is almost more expensive than most of the local hard wood my lumber dealer is offering. Thus raises the question what hardwood could be used for the laminations. I recently made a couple of end grain cutting boards from hard maple and walnut. I used rough sawn wood which wasn't that expensive and readily available in different sizes. Any recommendations here ? Does it matter if different kinds of wood are used for the stem and the keelson?
still lots of question, appreciate any input
Flat sawn black locust cut into VG 1/4' strips for stem laminates. They were dry bent and epoxied to form stem. DF should be easy to bend if BL could be done...
Last edited by Steamboat; 08-29-2014 at 10:09 PM.
I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.
2) you need to read more so you can understand the depth of what you do not know:
b, IO's book on glued lap boat building
c, other books
3) this forum has knowledgable pros who will give great but sometimes conflicting advice and many home builders like me who can give good and bad advice. It is up to you to be wise in what you choose to take from this community.
A suggestion, read the build by Vernon titled 20' Sooty Tern
I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.
Ian's book is definitely worth the price of admission if you don't already have it.
Sucker for a pretty face.
1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow
Getting into trouble one board at a time.