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Thread: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

  1. #176
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    I've been pondering that on my boat. 50', wheel steering by a chain and pully mechanism, to twin rudders hung well forward of the transom. I have fitted davits which also incorporate a big solar panel. She's a ketch with a fairly low mizzen boom, which stops just short of the transom. My proposed solution is to replace the wind vane section of a servo pendulum self steering gear with a small electronic wind vane coupled to a tiller pilot, which will control the pendulum rudder part. Essentially the tiller pilot replaces the wind vane. Should draw very little current in use. I think the dinghy hangs back far enough from the transom that it will clear the steering gear.

  2. #177
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    http://www.georgebuehler.com/Gulnare...are%20New.html
    hi captain

    have you seen this offering from George beuhler?
    Looks good if you don't mind hard chine, but needs a pilot house IMHO.
    Yours james

  3. #178
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Link above has a typo:
    http://www.georgebuehler.com/Gulnare%20New.html
    .
    .
    .
    The VERY NICE link above.
    This is the first lesson ye should learn: There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.
    E. Cayce

  4. #179
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    It has such a beautiful shear, and I aggree she needs a pilot house. On G.B.s website he said that this is the sailing version of the desiel duck, a very popular design of his, and that the pilot house has been removed to make construction easier, besides that, to my eye this design looks to be undercanvased, I realize that many of the sailors on this forum live in places where the wind blows most of the time, and the Gulnar'e 50' canvas would be more then adequate for their location. But for sailing around the world I think that a ocean passage maker needs to be rigged to deal with light air as well as heavy weather. I also think that the U.S. Coast Guard's regs for passenger sail craft is starting to have adverse effects on how sailboats are designed as well as what looks 'right' to the eye.

    On a different note, I'm beginning to think that I am the only person on this forum that likes an aft cabin! It seams that the dominate point of view here is for double Enders and aft cockpits that to my mind squanders a tremendous amount of real-estate. Some people say that there is a ton of storage space under the cockpit and in the lazarete and all this space is the one of the benefits, but I think that if very much weight is added to the aft end it will severely effect the characteristics of the boat. Anyone else out there besides me like aft cabins, and enough canvas to sail a big boat in a two knot breeze? After all isn't true that anyone can sail with a lot of wind, but a real sailor can sail on cats paws, and a babies breath?
    Z.

  5. #180
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    (Aft cabin makes sense // canvas enough for light air) -> +1
    This is the first lesson ye should learn: There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.
    E. Cayce

  6. #181
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    +1 on the aft cabin.

  7. #182
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    The aft cabin was the best cabin on the boat I grew up on, I was never allowed to sleep there!
    The pilot house was my next favorite!
    The aft cabin had a library of sailing books which for me was wonderful.
    It had large windows looking out the stern about a foot.
    I think that beuhler boat above would be ideal.
    If the wife ever gets to much you know where you will find me!!!
    James

  8. #183
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Ref post 161, do I understand you correctly to mean mounting an outboard directly to a large rudder? Would there be issues with thrust on the pintles/gudgeons if one were to do this? Seems like a sensible place to mount an outboard on what would otherwise be an inboard driven sailing vessel such as we're disucssing here. Given the wear on the pins issue I mentioned not being a problem.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  9. #184
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    Ref post 161, do I understand you correctly to mean mounting an outboard directly to a large rudder? Would there be issues with thrust on the pintles/gudgeons if one were to do this? Seems like a sensible place to mount an outboard on what would otherwise be an inboard driven sailing vessel such as we're disucssing here. Given the wear on the pins issue I mentioned not being a problem.
    Daniel,
    Think of the strengthening that you put in a standard transom to accept the thrust of a typical outboard motor... or the size of the thrust block on the vessel you are currently on (if you need directions to the thrust block let me know, but I warn you, it's in the "dirty place" below 3 deck ) even massively under-powering a vessel of the size being discussed here would still leave you with a pretty significant force on the rudder, and in ways it's never supposed to handle them... not just straight ahead, but also a fairly significant angles when you turn, that thrust is still going to be there, pushing your pintles/gudgeons with some serious force... could custom hardware be designed for the rudder to handle that... maybe, probably, but it would likely require a re-think of the entire stern structure, not just the rudder pintels and gudgeons... steering gear, definitely the structural members, the construction of the rudder too (oh what would happen in reverse....)

    I think it's an interesting idea on a small dink, with a tiny fractional HP motor, but a 40+ footer... would take some serious R&D $ to get a decent working system going...

  10. #185
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    That's kind of what I figured. I wonder how those pods mentioned above compare to something like a Thoosa motor.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  11. #186
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?



    The thing that scares me about this rig (and it is beautiful!) is the MASSIVE staysail led out to the bowsprit end. I sure feel safer with a headstay directly to the stemhead. Here, lose the bowsprit, lose the rig.

    The freeboard on the Bueller is extreme. Looks like a 20 footer scaled up. It is certainly undercanvased as well. Mostly a motor boat I think.

    I enjoy this thread Z! Can't wait to see what you come up with.

  12. #187
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    I too love this thread. The boat you're talking is right up my alley. With a few minor differences. What's life without variety though? My vote remains with Spike Africa. She's exactly what you need and want. Just rake her masts a bit.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  13. #188
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    I too love this thread. The boat you're talking is right up my alley. With a few minor differences. What's life without variety though? My vote remains with Spike Africa. She's exactly what you need and want. Just rake her masts a bit.
    Kaiulani is another, very much like Spike Africa, though I read that the underbody is a more slippery design. I thought it was probably a M.Peterson at first look, but I think the design is by W. Crealock (Westsail & Pacific Seacraft)


  14. #189
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Just a thought from a little knowing mostly landlubbing carpenter.........

    Most boats that appear in this thread are actually more or less based on pleasure boat designs as far as i can see. Cut away forefoots and ballest keels are very far from most designs for sailing merchantmen. Simply because such a hull does not have enough cargo capacity and it is difficult to stow cargo in a hull with too much deadrise and fine ends.

    Without having much knowledge on the subject I would think along the lines of all those schooners and ketches that traded all around northern europe in the first half of the 20th century. Baltic traders and Norwegian ketches and British west country ketches for instance. The last ones were built as late as the early 1950-ies. Most of them sailed pretty well and could tack against the wind reasonably well before their rigs got reduced. They sailed with small crews and carried significant cargoes for their size.
    Later on the usually got a small wheelhouse aft and a hot bulb engine that would be used when needed. In the end most lost their rigs and were converted to small motor ships.

    As I said I am no naval architect but I have a general idea that when needing a solution for a design problem one should look for a thoroughly tested solution for the same problem and start improving and modernizing from that starting point.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

  15. #190
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Captain Z, any news to update us with on this front?
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  16. #191
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    .+1
    This is the first lesson ye should learn: There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.
    E. Cayce

  17. #192
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt Zatarra View Post
    Rigadog
    What's up? No comment? The Bateau 55 hull has got sweet curve to its caprail but I wonder if that is really a blue water cruiser and lets not forget, I gotta gaff.
    Z.

    I love the design and there's at least one built I believe.
    If he ever drinks the brew of 10 tanna leaves, he will become a monster the likes of which the world has never seen



  18. #193
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Unfortunately There is no news to add at this point. I am working to collect the booty necessary to return to a life at sea. Is it not strange that in a past era, men went to sea to gain the where with all to live a life of ease on land. And while there are still men today who toil for their daily bread in the bosom of our mother ocean, many more of us bend our backs on land for the hope of spending some time at sea. Z.
    “The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner.” – Robert Louis Stevenson

  19. #194
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    well said.... ( writer tips his hat )
    This is the first lesson ye should learn: There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.
    E. Cayce

  20. #195
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Captain,

    You can work your trading idea, you would become what we call in the business, a shipping company. (or rather a commodity trader that owns his own ship.) In the old days it was called being a tramper.
    You can do it perfectly legally. You just have to do what is required for exporting and importing, pay your customs duties, figure out what Quarantine require. These extra costs get passed on to the buyer.
    If you get a job carrying someone else's cargo then they can do all that and all you do is load it on, carry it and discharge it, you will have to pay some extra port dues, like wharfage possibly, but probably not, if your not carrying large cargo's. (Would pay to read up on international maritime laws related to carriage of goods and bills and lading...)

    There is no need to consider any of it being done "under the table" at all.
    I have worked in the shipping business all my working life and lots of people make a living at it, Freight forwarders, customs agents and so on, and none of it is rocket science and I cant think of a reason why you cant make it work on a smaller scale.

    Another thing you might think about is ship planning....by this I mean where and how the cargo is stowed, if you loading anything of size or a decent weight into some kind of hold, you will have to think about this. It is something to consider for the safety of your vessel, and for the carriage of the cargo itself.
    There is a considerable difference I would think between schooners that are pleasure craft and a working ship...depending on how much you are carrying you should be aware of the stability calculations for the ship, what your stack or pile weights on the deck or hold would be and things like this, lashing forces and the safe working load of your lashing and the best way to do it.

    As for whether you can carry cargo like this and be commercially viable, that would depend on a case by case basis of what the cargo is. If you know you can sell something somewhere else and make a dollar, then it doesn't matter how long your on the water for, your not competing with anybody, you are just trading in commodities and using your own ship to get it there.
    As for being contracted to carry other people cargo, if you are cheap, (which you would be) you will get business off smaller exporters who would otherwise be shipping with Freight forwarders (who pack several items from different owners into the same shipping container to make up one full container) The only place you cant compete would be in speed - but some cargo doesn't need to be there by next Tuesday, and being more affordable can get you business.

    You need someone like me, frankly. It sounds like an interesting project, and you should treat the commodity trading as a hobby that might make some actual money; then you can start treating it like a part time job that might make some decent money....

    (PS, the one cargo I can tell you no one will ship with you, and you will not make any money on even if they did, is carrying beef or frozen meat. Not going to happen compardre, but speciality items - from cigars to glass...is possible.)

    (PPS. One place I know for sure you could work, is between the islands in the South Pacific, from copra and machine parts to special foodstuffs for resorts and hotels etc, but that might be outside your sphere of travel...)
    Last edited by Carlsen Highway; 06-19-2015 at 01:09 AM.

  21. #196
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway View Post
    Captain,

    You can work your trading idea, you would become what we call in the business, a shipping company. (or rather a commodity trader that owns his own ship.) In the old days it was called being a tramper.
    You can do it perfectly legally. You just have to do what is required for exporting and importing, pay your customs duties, figure out what Quarantine require. These extra costs get passed on to the buyer.
    If you get a job carrying someone else's cargo then they can do all that and all you do is load it on, carry it and discharge it, you will have to pay some extra port dues, like wharfage possibly, but probably not, if your not carrying large cargo's. (Would pay to read up on international maritime laws related to carriage of goods and bills and lading...)

    There is no need to consider any of it being done "under the table" at all.
    I have worked in the shipping business all my working life and lots of people make a living at it, Freight forwarders, customs agents and so on, and none of it is rocket science and I cant think of a reason why you cant make it work on a smaller scale.

    Another thing you might think about is ship planning....by this I mean where and how the cargo is stowed, if you loading anything of size or a decent weight into some kind of hold, you will have to think about this. It is something to consider for the safety of your vessel, and for the carriage of the cargo itself.
    There is a considerable difference I would think between schooners that are pleasure craft and a working ship...depending on how much you are carrying you should be aware of the stability calculations for the ship, what your stack or pile weights on the deck or hold would be and things like this, lashing forces and the safe working load of your lashing and the best way to do it.

    As for whether you can carry cargo like this and be commercially viable, that would depend on a case by case basis of what the cargo is. If you know you can sell something somewhere else and make a dollar, then it doesn't matter how long your on the water for, your not competing with anybody, you are just trading in commodities and using your own ship to get it there.
    As for being contracted to carry other people cargo, if you are cheap, (which you would be) you will get business off smaller exporters who would otherwise be shipping with Freight forwarders (who pack several items from different owners into the same shipping container to make up one full container) The only place you cant compete would be in speed - but some cargo doesn't need to be there by next Tuesday, and being more affordable can get you business.

    You need someone like me, frankly. It sounds like an interesting project, and you should treat the commodity trading as a hobby that might make some actual money; then you can start treating it like a part time job that might make some decent money....

    (PS, the one cargo I can tell you no one will ship with you, and you will not make any money on even if they did, is carrying beef or frozen meat. Not going to happen compardre, but speciality items - from cigars to glass...is possible.)

    (PPS. One place I know for sure you could work, is between the islands in the South Pacific, from copra and machine parts to special foodstuffs for resorts and hotels etc, but that might be outside your sphere of travel...)

    Carlson, I'm sorry I missed this post when it came in. I just discovered it now. You sound very knowledgeable on the subject. And things are moving forward slowly but forward just the same. There is NO area out of reach for me, once I am back on the water, in fact the south pacific is one area I am keenly interested in. Send me a private message with a contact information if you would like me to contact you when I am back at sea again. Captain Zatarra
    “The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner.” – Robert Louis Stevenson

  22. #197
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    It would be well worth taking a look at the Tres Hombres, and their business model. They seem to do a fair job of blending hauling of freight (0 emission, carbon neutral, etc), trading, and carrying paying passengers for sail training. Could be a model worth looking at/copying.

  23. #198
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Tres Hombres........ rather WOW!
    http://fairtransport.eu/ships/tres-hombres/

    A Minesweeper Rebuilt
    The Tres Hombres began as a Minesweeper – a cutter built in 1943. Rediscovered in Delft in 2007 by the “Tres Hombres”.


    In fact the whole 'Fair Transport' thing looks rather WOW!
    http://fairtransport.eu
    For 5 years we have shipped cargo across the ocean by windpower only. Here at Fairtransport, we are proud of this achievement!
    This is the first lesson ye should learn: There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.
    E. Cayce

  24. #199
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    She's beautiful...and does it all with no engine on top of everything else. A couple of youtube videos worth watching about her...or of her
    https://youtu.be/8YyCLsZVoKE - Just Sailing along
    https://youtu.be/UXpSgAeAqM4 - Rum Story
    https://youtu.be/hH3vjSz0pik - Rum Commercial
    https://youtu.be/yZ1LJMuYVuM - Beyond the Horizon...one of my favs
    https://youtu.be/Y_x2WOkQNW8 - More sailing - inbound to La Coruna
    https://youtu.be/1aq5ApcWaj4 - North Sea storm...no music, so can really hear the wind
    Last edited by lross12345; 08-07-2015 at 10:02 PM. Reason: Spelling :)

  25. #200
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Any news, Capt. Zatarra?

  26. #201
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    I will put this right here

  27. #202
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Been a while.....
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  28. #203
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Best of luck and wishes to all . . . .
    This is the first lesson ye should learn: There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.
    E. Cayce

  29. #204
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Its seems any photo i try to upload is too large

  30. #205
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Read Thorne's photo posting instructions. In a nutshell, you need a photo host on the internet to transfer from. This Forum cannot take photo files straight from your computer.

  31. #206
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    On the topic of "What's a large sailing cargo vessel you can work with 2 hands"... The Thames sailing barges, with I believe the ketch rigs, were commonly worked 2 handed throughout WWII, with man and boy, or man and wife teams common. These were up to 100ft long, 100 ton capacity, traded up and down the Eastern seaboard of UK and across the North sea. Now they have been known to cross the Atlantic, but I wouldn't rate them for comfort in that, flat bottoms must have slammed like hell.

    Unfortunately I am not sure if all the superlatives, "only 3ft draft, 100+ ton cargo, 5000sq ft of sail area, 15knot speed, 2 handed.. etc" can be had all in one boat or refer to very different ones.

    I just offer it as an example of the type and size of sail plan that has historically been handled 2 handed, without power assistance. (Though I'm not sure whether many might have had donkey engines for the anchor through most of their lives)

  32. #207
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    Default Re: Is a Cargo Schooner right for me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scow hound View Post
    Its seems any photo i try to upload is too large
    You should be able to embed them from a different online source, but can't upload them from your local drive.
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