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Thread: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

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    Default Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"


    If anyone is interested in Northern California, you can volunteer to help build a 100' Brigantine in Sausalito.

    http://educationaltallship.org/

    I went down this last Saturday and was put to work hand fairing frames which had just been bevel-sawn earlier this week.

    I got through 3 frames and they took me off that and sent me over to the assembled keel. Another volunteer and I also drilled 24 keelbolt holes.



    This is the good stuff guys.. we are talking REAL shipbuilding.
    Last edited by BrianM; 07-22-2014 at 10:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"



    Yours truly with the backbone behind. All lead and bronze.. doug fir (virgin) for backbone and framing, 3rd growth for planking.

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    I missed all the epoxy slathering over the course of the last year. The Fir is a pleasure to plane.. that "candy" like fragrance is really pleasant compared to the West Systems portion of the project.


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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Frame Beveling just started the 3rd week of July.. here's the pile remaining... "Matthew Turner" has laminated doug fir frames on 2' centers, so we have 5 faired and something like 45 more to go...


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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Wow! Very nice project to be part of.
    "what could go wrong?"

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"



    The fellow on the right in the baseball cap had an interesting story. His grandmother is "Alma" for which the last operating San Francisco Scow Schooner was named. The fellow on the left was a machinist early in his career, then became a cabinet maker in 1970 and brings both worlds of experience to the crew. It's a much fun to talk to the volunteers and learn their backgrounds as well as doing the work.

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Brian, I saw that operation down there, but haven't gotten inside as yet. It looks like they actually might have the money to pull it off, but still, I'm constitutionally skeptical of any boat (or ship) building enterprise that purports to provide "educational experiences for kids," let alone with volunteer help (present company excepted!) (The OSHA liability alone boggles the mind!) "Non-profit" plus "ship" almost always equals "bankrupt." Still, they do look top drawer. Is there anybody we know doing this build? Who's the master builder? Who's the NA? (They must be contemplating USCG certification, right?) Is the vessel one of Turner's designs? (He built more sailing ships at his yard up in Benicia than anyone else in history.) Enquiring minds want to know!



    Is that actually a lead ballast keel they're hanging on a 100' brigantine? I can't imagine Matthew Turner ever doing that! That deadwood looks to be farmed DF. Pretty low ring count there, but suitable for deadwood, I'd guess. Lots of questions and lots to learn from this build. Do keep us posted!

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    Brian, I saw that operation down there, but haven't gotten inside as yet. It looks like they actually might have the money to pull it off, but still, I'm constitutionally skeptical of any boat (or ship) building enterprise that purports to provide "educational experiences for kids," let alone with volunteer help (present company excepted!) (The OSHA liability alone boggles the mind!) "Non-profit" plus "ship" almost always equals "bankrupt." Still, they do look top drawer. Is there anybody we know doing this build? Who's the master builder? Who's the NA? (They must be contemplating USCG certification, right?) Is the vessel one of Turner's designs? (He built more sailing ships at his yard up in Benicia than anyone else in history.) Enquiring minds want to know!



    Is that actually a lead ballast keel they're hanging on a 100' brigantine? I can't imagine Matthew Turner ever doing that! That deadwood looks to be farmed DF. Pretty low ring count there, but suitable for deadwood, I'd guess. Lots of questions and lots to learn from this build. Do keep us posted!


    Alan Olson is running the show. He was involved with Stone Witch and "Call of the Sea". Here's his bio:

    ALAN OLSON
    POSITION: EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR

    This project is Alan’s brainchild. With 50 years of maritime experience in construction, engineering, restoration and sailing, he is uniquely suited to run the project. Alan has a long history of both building and sailing and he is interested and passionate about everything nautical. Alan also founded the non-profit organization, Call of the Sea, which provides hands-on, educational experience aboard their 82ft Schooner Seaward, which has served over 15,000 students and sailed over 40,000 miles on day and overnight educational youth programs.

    Alan’s boat building and sailing career is filled with adventure.In 1961, he built a 40ft catamaran in Minnesota and sailed down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean.Moving to Florida, he worked as the lead carpenter on the construction of an 85ft catamaran, and then, in 1971, he began construction of the 70ft Brigantine, Stone Witch. After its completion in 1977, Alan sailed Stone Witch over 40,000 miles, operating educational sailing programs for youth and adults along with public charters on San Francisco Bay. Stone Witch was the flagship for Greenpeace and was involved in many environmental missions along the California Coast. Stone Witch sailed without an engine for the majority of its career. In the 1980’s, Alan restored a 54ft wooden staysail schooner circa 1929 which was then used in youth educational programs for Call of the Sea and made several educational expeditions with adults including seven trips to Mexico and a 15,000-mile Pacific Rim voyage.

    The inside scoop: Alan is a good soul. He is kind, determined and is really passionate about the power of sailing and its ability to offer a unique experience for youth. He’s an amazing teacher and always has a story. He is not a fan of pirate parties!




    The funding for this seems to come from deep pockets. Some of the people who were given tours on Saturday were dressed slightly better than us poor slobs working on the boat. I got the sense that they were patrons and had the look of success about them.

    All Silicone Bronze and Lead tell me it's being built to "yacht standards".. at least the backbone is.

    The lead Shipwright is Franz Baichl. Very friendly guy. Talked to me for about 20 minutes before 8am and apparently in that conversation, he gained enough trust in me to cut me loose on fairing frames made of virgin (high ring count) fir. Even lent me his lie-nielson block plane (for which I accepted with trembling hands.. but man it cut nicely...).

    Designed By Tri Coastal Marine over in Alameda.. they seem to know what they are doing in adapting historical designs to Coast Guard Passenger and Carrying Requirement Standards.

    She'll have water tight bulkheads, twin screws, a sail plan to pass stability requirements, etc.


    On the Lumber Quality.

    The budget clearly is not unlimited as the planking stock I looked at (currently air drying cants) is cut from the Mendocino forests and is clearly 3rd growth stuff. I was hard pressed to see any of the stickered plank stock that was over 24' in length. Seems kind of short for a 85' hull? They might be planning to scarf planks to get the length?

    The Head Shipwright, Franz Baichl commented that the 3rd growth lumber being used for planking was serviceable because
    1. They were using bronze lag bolts to fasten
    2. It's planking.. you can easily remove and replace it compared to replacing frames.. no problem.
    Last edited by BrianM; 07-22-2014 at 04:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
    All Silicone Bronze and Lead tell me it's being built to "yacht standards".. at least the backbone is.

    Designed By Tri Coastal Marine over in Alameda.. they seem to know what they are doing in adapting historical designs to Coast Guard Passenger and Carrying Requirement Standards.

    She'll have water tight bulkheads, twin screws, a sail plan to pass stability requirements, etc.

    On the Lumber Quality.

    The budget clearly is not unlimited as the planking stock I looked at (currently air drying cants) is cut from the Mendocino forests and is clearly 3rd growth stuff. I was hard pressed to see any of the stickered plank stock that was over 24' in length. Seems kind of short for a 85' hull? They might be planning to scarf planks to get the length?

    The Head Shipwright, Franz Baichl commented that the 3rd growth lumber being used for planking was serviceable because
    1. They were using bronze lag bolts to fasten
    2. It's planking.. you can easily remove and replace it compared to replacing frames.. no problem.
    Tri-Coastal is an okay outfit. They've done a fair amount of work on vessels of this size. IIRC, they did the survey and supervision on the Thayer restoration for the NPS.

    I've not heard of "third growth" DF until now. I guess that's a sign of my aging! Myself, I don't see any distinction between "old growth" and "new," or "third," for that matter. The ring count is a function of how fast the tree grows. In a virgin forest (so called, "old growth,") the trees are usually tightly spaced an have to fight for light and moisture, so they grow more slowly and the ring count is higher for any given dimension. If a DF is out in the open, for whatever reason, it will grow quickly and the ring count will be lower for a given dimension because it doesn't have to compete so much. The replanted or "plantation" stuff is planted more widely apart and 'weeded" so it will grow quickly and is characteristically low ring count. I'm guessing that if they are sourcing a lot of commercially harvested stuff with low ring count, it's almost certainly coming from farmed stock grown with an eye to producing construction grade lumber. I'd think that they'd do better looking for someplace like Sturgeon's Mill that is sawing "odds and ends" from local clearing of slow growth stuff, rather than commercial lumbering outfits, to obtain higher quality stuff. If I were in the market for DF to build a large vessel, my first stop would be Hull-Oakes in Oregon. They provided the timber and spars for the Thayer restoration, and also the masts and spars for the Constitution restoration. Their specialty is long (up to 85'), tight ringed DF, custom sawn. (Great website! http://www.hulloakes.com/ ) (They are the last commercial steam powered sawmill in the US.)









    As for their using bronze lag bolts to fasten that planking.... pretty amazing. (Did I get that right?) I'm all for "finestkind," but given the massive scantlings in such a vessel, I'd expect galvanized iron would last as long as anything else in her. Bronze fastenings on a vessel of that size is pretty amazing, and particularly in the sizes required. Talk about very expensive "lipstick on a pig." She'll certainly be one boat that even in this day and age will be worth "burning for her fastenings" when her days are over. I'd expect that the normal schedule would call for trunnels or hot dipped ship's spikes. Are they going to hire armed guards to watch their fastener stock at night? if the tweakers find out about that bronze, they'll be gone in a hot minute!

    This is definitely one to watch!

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    More work on frames this weekend. This is station #10. Layout and lofting.


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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    My frame from last week mounted in the eyes of the bow. Bronze Lags..


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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Starting to look like something now...


    Up to Station #10. The Mast Step is being fabricated for Stations #11-13:


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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Neat stuff Brian. I'll be watching your thread with interest, and maybe I can even make it down there one of these weekends!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything"

    Roosevelt, Theodore

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Bob Cleek wrote "As for their using bronze lag bolts to fasten that planking..." and, "I'd expect galvanized iron would last as long as anything else in her." I'm thinking that the bronze bolts might be part of the planned obsolescence of the planking / survival of the frames. When the planking starts to go, I would think that the good condition of the fasteners could be assumed.

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"



    Just a bit of picky kibitzing, but somebody ought to make sure that the socket on that mast step has sufficient limber holes in it. None seem to be pictured. It will fill up with water (usually from a leaky mast boot) and rot out the mast heel for sure.

    (Yea, I know, talk is cheap. They are doing a pretty good looking job, all things considered.)

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Will it be traditionally planked? All this talk of inferior stock makes me wonder if it will be an epoxy job? Cool build though. I wish them the best.

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    The first three times I looked at that first picture, I didn't see the boat.

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    Will it be traditionally planked? All this talk of inferior stock makes me wonder if it will be an epoxy job? Cool build though. I wish them the best.
    Traditional Planking. Butt Blocks no scarfs, and this is specifically out of the mouth of one the paid Boatwrights.

    I am a little concerned that most of the planking stock seems to be in the 20' long range. At 2' centers on the frames, you can imagine the number of ButtBlocks that will be needed. I'm no expert, but in terms of something to compare to, when C.A. Thayer was rebuilt (a 200' lumber schooner built all of Fir) 70' long plankstock was on hand for an average of 3-4 planks over the length of the hull. With Matthew Turner, it will be 5-6 20' planks per tier.


    Good news is that if and when longer stock is found in the future, it can be swapped in easily as the fasteners should be easily removed (bronze in Fir).

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Armstrong View Post
    Neat stuff Brian. I'll be watching your thread with interest, and maybe I can even make it down there one of these weekends!
    They'd be glad to have you. Most of the people I've met who volunteer have little wooden boat related knowledge or experience. They'll size you up in a few minutes. Heck the 2nd time I was out there, they had me training and supervising a work crew fairing frames to the lofted angles and lines.

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammersix View Post
    The first three times I looked at that first picture, I didn't see the boat.
    here are her constuction plan and lines:





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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"


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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
    Starting to look like something now...


    Up to Station #10. The Mast Step is being fabricated for Stations #11-13:

    Limbers are most important here, but the drawing begs a couple of questions. Why have they put all those lightening holes in everything? Generally a mast step is low in the structure. A structure they are surely going to add weight to.
    Why are they using Steel and bronze in the same assembly?
    And why not use square tubing for the actual step instead of pipe? Sq.Tubing is readily available in 1/2" wall thickness, and would lend itself to a traditional mast construction.

    It appears there is plenty of money budgeted for custom metal fabrication.

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Limbers are most important here, but the drawing begs a couple of questions. Why have they put all those lightening holes in everything? Generally a mast step is low in the structure. A structure they are surely going to add weight to.
    Why are they using Steel and bronze in the same assembly?
    And why not use square tubing for the actual step instead of pipe? Sq.Tubing is readily available in 1/2" wall thickness, and would lend itself to a traditional mast construction.

    It appears there is plenty of money budgeted for custom metal fabrication.
    Yea. I sure don't want to rain on anybody's parade. They are at least making a reasonable attempt at it and should be encouraged. What we are looking at, now that the lines have been posted, is pretty much "Tri Coastal Marine style" work. Tri Coastal, about which I don't profess to have any first hand knowledge, has, based on other work I've seen of theirs, a competent crew of surveyors and naval architects, but their work seems to reflect modern training and engineering education. They aren't traditional wooden boat builders or traditional wooden naval architects. When you hire a guy with a brand new MIT degree, you can expect that he's been trained to fabricate whatever he needs out of metal and put lightening holes everywhere he can, but hasn't ever had the finer points of things like limber holes drilled into his head. In a similar vein, traditional white oak futtocks would have likely produced much less expensive frames, both in labor and materials, which would have later been much easier to replace or repair than the fully laminated ones they specified, and all at no loss of hull strength to boot.

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Limbers are most important here, but the drawing begs a couple of questions. Why have they put all those lightening holes in everything? Generally a mast step is low in the structure. A structure they are surely going to add weight to.
    Why are they using Steel and bronze in the same assembly?
    And why not use square tubing for the actual step instead of pipe? Sq.Tubing is readily available in 1/2" wall thickness, and would lend itself to a traditional mast construction.

    It appears there is plenty of money budgeted for custom metal fabrication.
    All the metal work I've seen has been ONLY Silicone Bronze. The lead Boatwright, Franz Baichl is doing the MIG welding. I haven't seen mention of Steel in the thread.. have I missed something?

    I haven't seen the mast-step in person yet, but they are welding up the floors pretty much "Just-in-time" style to hang the next pair of frames.

    I recall seeing limber openings in each of the weldments for the floors, but again haven't seen the step.

    Alan Olson is the Executive Director of the program, and in the few conversations I've had with him.. he knows wooden ship construction very well (at least as much as I understand it...). Here's his bio:


    ALAN OLSON
    POSITION: EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR

    This project is Alan’s brainchild. With 50 years of maritime experience in construction, engineering, restoration and sailing, he is uniquely suited to run the project. Alan has a long history of both building and sailing and he is interested and passionate about everything nautical. Alan also founded the non-profit organization, Call of the Sea, which provides hands-on, educational experience aboard their 82ft Schooner Seaward, which has served over 15,000 students and sailed over 40,000 miles on day and overnight educational youth programs.

    Alan’s boat building and sailing career is filled with adventure.In 1961, he built a 40ft catamaran in Minnesota and sailed down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean.Moving to Florida, he worked as the lead carpenter on the construction of an 85ft catamaran, and then, in 1971, he began construction of the 70ft Brigantine, Stone Witch. After its completion in 1977, Alan sailed Stone Witch over 40,000 miles, operating educational sailing programs for youth and adults along with public charters on San Francisco Bay. Stone Witch was the flagship for Greenpeace and was involved in many environmental missions along the California Coast. Stone Witch sailed without an engine for the majority of its career. In the 1980’s, Alan restored a 54ft wooden staysail schooner circa 1929, which was then used in youth educational programs for Call of the Sea and made several educational expeditions with adults including seven trips to Mexico, and a 15,000-mile Pacific Rim voyage.

    The inside scoop: Alan is a good soul. He is kind, determined and is really passionate about the power of sailing and its ability to offer a unique experience for youth. He’s an amazing teacher and always has a story. He is not a fan of pirate parties!

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    I dropped those guys an email a few minutes ago reminding them to check for limber holes in the mast step in the event that they were not incorporated. I suspect it will require an Engineering Change Order as this structural part is pretty critical, and the boat IS going to be licensed for passengers...

    Good Catch Bob. Why don't you get your carcass down their one day at lunchtime.. How long a drive is it from Novato?? 10 minutes?

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    With a quick look, I mis-read the drawing - substituting in my mind, "steel ring" for "heel ring"...

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
    I dropped those guys an email a few minutes ago reminding them to check for limber holes in the mast step in the event that they were not incorporated. I suspect it will require an Engineering Change Order as this structural part is pretty critical, and the boat IS going to be licensed for passengers...

    Good Catch Bob. Why don't you get your carcass down their one day at lunchtime.. How long a drive is it from Novato?? 10 minutes?
    Every time I've been down there since they set up their tent and hung their sign outside, I've swung by to see what was going on, but never found them open. I haven't been down there is six weeks or so. Are they only open for visitors on the weekends?

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    One of the volunteers was telling me he was working full days "8-4pm".

    I was envious that he was either independently wealthy, or just didn't need much to live on.

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    Default Re: Educational Tall Ship - San Francisco/ Sausalito, Brig "Matthew Turner"

    Went over to look at progress. Wish I had some Saturdays off to continue helping.. maybe when planking starts...





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