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Thread: Hvalsoe 18

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    This boat is going to fill a growing need in the sail and oar world, namely a full sized S&O boat that isn't a sooty tern! It seems there are a number of boats with a similar mission statement being created lately, including one on my own drawing board. I'm very interested to see how this turns out.

    Any chance we can get a shot of the lines plan or lofting board to get an idea of the overall shape? Or is that still top secret info?

    This is going to be a fun one to watch.
    Heck, you'll see what she looks like in the flesh, or at least over the internet. Perhaps I'll get out a drawing that would be informative and fun to discuss. Eventually plans will be available.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Who ever heard of a level floor in a boatshop?
    Seriously, Tim does not need a level floor. But he does want the top of the jig to be a stable, non warped plane. The molds are set square off the strongback. The eye adjusts. The strongback being rolled around over a wonky surface and getting out of plane is of some concern. But I think he might manage it. I trussed the strongback tonight giving it a lot more stability. I kinda like the adjustable leg lifter idea.

    I suggested Tim cut clamping slots in the plywood molds. They are a must have for traditional cedar, maybe not as much for glued ply lap.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    I've built all five of my glued lap boats on a jig with casters and never had any trouble with anything going out of true. The jig just has to be substantial enough not to twist. Of course, the bigger the boat, the more stout the jig. For little 11' 6" canoes, it was made from 1x4's. The 15' Rushton, I used 1x6's. I'm now adapting the building jig for my HV13 as a trailer-height dolly to store the boat when not on the trailer. I'll be putting rollers on it to easily transfer the boat from one to the other.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    Heck, you'll see what she looks like in the flesh, or at least over the internet. Perhaps I'll get out a drawing that would be informative and fun to discuss. Eventually plans will be available.
    I think that an Eric-approved lines drawing for study purposes would be useful to this thread. Because of the beta nature of this boat I don't feel comfortable posting what I have. (If anyone wants to stop by to look that'd be great, too.)

    Incidentally, for those still following along at home, I settled on 18mm plywood for the transom.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    I think that an Eric-approved lines drawing for study purposes would be useful to this thread. Because of the beta nature of this boat I don't feel comfortable posting what I have. (If anyone wants to stop by to look that'd be great, too.)

    Incidentally, for those still following along at home, I settled on 18mm plywood for the transom.

    Hooray! Mostly I just like to look at boat lines. But only when you and the designer are comfortable with it. I hope I didn't give the wrong impression, any concerns of "homogenization" are quite unfounded.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Correct. Tim does not have permission from the designer to publish the lines drawing transferred to his care.
    I'll get around to something, the thought had crossed my mind.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    More photos.

    I began assembling the inner stem assembly last night. The stem and forefoot are fir. There's one bronze screw fastener involved, primarily to help me index the pieces together once the epoxy was mixed and hot. I used Silvertip GelMagic from System Three. After wetting the faying surfaces with clear epoxy, I thickened the remainder of the batch with wood flour.



    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    Correct. Tim does not have permission from the designer to publish the lines drawing transferred to his care.
    I'll get around to something, the thought had crossed my mind.
    In the meanwhile, here's a view of the designer doing the traditional Danish Transferring-The-Nail-Head-To-Station-Mold Patternmaker's Dance.

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    LOL. All I can hear in my head looking at that GIF is Elvis Costello's Mystery Dance.

    Tim, not thinking about laminated khaya for the transom?
    Gerard>
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  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    LOL. All I can hear in my head looking at that GIF is Elvis Costello's Mystery Dance. Tim, not thinking about laminated khaya for the transom?
    Question right back at you ... Why should I? I haven't cut into my 18mm plywood yet. I have the receipt. I'm game to listen.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Um, I'm just thinking that a bright transom would be rather nice. I guess I am assuming a painted transom since it is ply, but correct me if wrong.
    Gerard>
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    Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic and stop the madness. Save the country.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    If that's a traditional Danish dance Eric is doing, the music might be from one of the weird and wonderful Hardanger fiddles......bigger than a normal fiddle, lots of strings, able to do all sorts of things it's smaller cousin might be afraid to try.....a bit like the HV Maximus Yeadon is building in relation to the HV Minor and HV Medius.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Why not edge glue up some planks, with splines maybe and make the transom of solid wood? Its worked on lots of ply boats and if you want a bright transom it will save you the embarrassment of varnishing a veneer. If you run the boards (1x6 or 1x8 approx) vertically the grain exposed to the planking will accept both glue and fasteners.

    Heavier than ply maybe, but easier to fasten to while the glue dries and better looking.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    If that's a traditional Danish dance Eric is doing, the music might be from one of the weird and wonderful Hardanger fiddles......bigger than a normal fiddle, lots of strings, able to do all sorts of things it's smaller cousin might be afraid to try.....a bit like the HV Maximus Yeadon is building in relation to the HV Minor and HV Medius.
    Rats! Is it too late to re-name my Hvalsoe 13? HV Minor. I really like it!!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Um, I'm just thinking that a bright transom would be rather nice. I guess I am assuming a painted transom since it is ply, but correct me if wrong.
    It's a fair question. I was just curious what the background was behind the question ... and it's aesthetic versus structural. I was more concerned that you had a structural concern. This might be sacrilegious to some, but I don't think I'm going with a bright transom on this boat. The fir stem will be painted, too. I plan on doing a few interior bits bright, thwarts, knees, breasthook, quarter knees, but overall, this boat will be sealed up and painted. This led me to ply, which offers a nice stable material to work with and mate up with the airtight tank/bulkhead at the stern.

    Even with a painted ply stern and painted fir stem, I think the lines and general outline of this boat will turn heads.

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    If that's a traditional Danish dance Eric is doing, the music might be from one of the weird and wonderful Hardanger fiddles......bigger than a normal fiddle, lots of strings, able to do all sorts of things it's smaller cousin might be afraid to try.....a bit like the HV Maximus Yeadon is building in relation to the HV Minor and HV Medius.
    I look forward to someone putting that gif to music.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    Why not edge glue up some planks, with splines maybe and make the transom of solid wood? Its worked on lots of ply boats and if you want a bright transom it will save you the embarrassment of varnishing a veneer. If you run the boards (1x6 or 1x8 approx) vertically the grain exposed to the planking will accept both glue and fasteners.

    Heavier than ply maybe, but easier to fasten to while the glue dries and better looking.
    You sound like a guy who wants to build an HV18 cedar on oak, with a splined transom. That's going to be a beautiful boat! Looking forward to your thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    Why not edge glue up some planks, with splines maybe and make the transom of solid wood? Its worked on lots of ply boats and if you want a bright transom it will save you the embarrassment of varnishing a veneer. If you run the boards (1x6 or 1x8 approx) vertically the grain exposed to the planking will accept both glue and fasteners.

    Heavier than ply maybe, but easier to fasten to while the glue dries and better looking.
    That's what I did with Hornpipe although I ran the grain horizontally, not vertically. I used about 1" thick stock and, with the bevel for the planking, just glued it and have had not trouble with planks coming adrift. I like the looks, but then I acknowledge I might be a little biased.
    Alex

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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    If that's a traditional Danish dance Eric is doing, the music might be from one of the weird and wonderful Hardanger fiddles......bigger than a normal fiddle, lots of strings, able to do all sorts of things it's smaller cousin might be afraid to try.....a bit like the HV Maximus Yeadon is building in relation to the HV Minor and HV Medius.
    Minobr /> Medius
    Maximus

    But what if there's a fourth HV? A mega offering ... the Hvalsoe Ingens, perhaps.

    Personally, I tend to think that Eric has another boat to design that would be comparative to a Caledonia Yawl or Drascombe Lugger. (A HV19 or HV20?) This would be more of a Sail & Family boat, driven by a lug yawl and small outboard.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Minobr /> Medius
    Maximus

    But what if there's a fourth HV? A mega offering ... the Hvalsoe Ingens, perhaps.

    Personally, I tend to think that Eric has another boat to design that would be comparative to a Caledonia Yawl or Drascombe Lugger. (A HV19 or HV20?) This would be more of a Sail & Family boat, driven by a lug yawl and small outboard.
    There is still room for an HV Major in the line up......

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    It's a fair question. I was just curious what the background was behind the question ... and it's aesthetic versus structural. I was more concerned that you had a structural concern. This might be sacrilegious to some, but I don't think I'm going with a bright transom on this boat. The fir stem will be painted, too. I plan on doing a few interior bits bright, thwarts, knees, breasthook, quarter knees, but overall, this boat will be sealed up and painted. This led me to ply, which offers a nice stable material to work with and mate up with the airtight tank/bulkhead at the stern.
    I would be worried about the holding power of the screws into the ply as opposed to cedar or fir. Given that you are going to glue them, and likely also fillet the planks to the transom this likely isn't an issue. If you just want more with, perhaps "skirt" like the Somes Sound has could be an option (but that is kind of like the frame option).

    I've got no problem with a painted transom, almost ever catboat has the same thing. And I actually think it will look quite nice.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by samclem View Post
    I would be worried about the holding power of the screws into the ply as opposed to cedar or fir. Given that you are going to glue them, and likely also fillet the planks to the transom this likely isn't an issue. If you just want more with, perhaps "skirt" like the Somes Sound has could be an option (but that is kind of like the frame option).

    I've got no problem with a painted transom, almost ever catboat has the same thing. And I actually think it will look quite nice.
    This is basically my plan ... to epoxy the 9mm ply planks to the beveled and faceted edge of the transom (kreg screw as temporary fastener), then fillet and glass tape them to the transom.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    (If anyone wants to stop by to look that'd be great, too.)
    Since you're offering tours, how's early afternoon on Saturday?
    -Jim

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  22. #92
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Sounds perfect. I'll be here.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    This is basically my plan ... to epoxy the 9mm ply planks to the beveled and faceted edge of the transom (kreg screw as temporary fastener), then fillet and glass tape them to the transom.
    I see that you'll be faceting the transom to land the planks. Good idea. On my HV13 build, using the Tom Hill ribband system, I didn't have to facet the molds. But, I didn't facet the transom either and found that, even though the width of the planks was only about 2" at that point, I had a hard time getting them to bend to the transom curve. Live and learn.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Enjoying the thread so far... looking forward to the finished product!
    David G
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18



    Let's set up this boat.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Why so high with the building frame?? Never having built a boat I know very little , but it would seem easier if the form was 1 foot lower? Maybe you need to be inside the hull at times and lower would make that a witch??

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    I think it'll be a decent working height for planking, though it could be a couple inches lower. I don't want to do a lot of leaning over or hunching. I'll probably need a small scaffold while I fair the keelson/apron and fit the garboards. After that, I should be able to stand and work.

    Once I take the boat off the building jig then I'll need to lower it quite a bit to be able to work inside.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    It seemed like a good comfortable height to me. The only awkward part will be climbing up to fair in the keelson and when the outer keel goes on. For planking I think it will be perfect.

    Jim
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Tim how do you like that band saw? 17" ?

  30. #100
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Girouard View Post
    Tim how do you like that band saw? 17" ?
    Great bandsaw. It's a 17" Grizzly Bandsaw with a 2hp motor. It's this one. For the price it seemed to be a pretty good value. One of the best things about building this boat is that I needed "a few" new tools, including that Grizzly.

    I also bought it because I enjoy wood turning, and it's nice to have a decent sized throat on a bandsaw when you're trying to shape a blank. My previous 14" inch bandsaw only had about a 7" throat. This is closer to 12".

    Quote Originally Posted by Gopez View Post
    Looking good!

    If at any point in your build, you feel the pace is a bit too quick, and, you want to slow down and savor every process to the fullest extent...my shop assistant is available for hire.

    Can she distract large, exuberant, very friendly dogs? That would be brilliant.

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Gopez View Post
    Capsize recovery videos (Sooty Tern and Arctic Tern) have shown a tendency for the double enders to be very unstable when swamped;


    I know this has been commented on before, but for whatever reason I did not find this to be the case with Rowan in my recent adventure. Was it the fact that I have fixed ballast in my boat and these others don't? Is it that I was just so busy and amped up that I didn't notice? Is it even perhaps that I am so regrettably experienced in the art of capsizing canoes that this larger boat seemed majestically stable in comparison? I would like to find this out, because I am not sure that this meme is objectively valid. Any sail & oar hull form with the narrower beam required for the rowing aspect is going to have a completely different stability profile, swamped or not, than something like a broad planing dinghy. A subjective impression of "tippiness" needs to be assessed according to comparables.

    I suspect that HV-18 is going to be very, very similar in most respects to any other boat in her general class, including things like Walkabout, Alaska, or the new Calendar Islands Yawl, as well as Ness Yawl and Snooty Tern. And it's going to be different than the broader forms like a Caledonia Yawl, Drascombe, or Navigator. I can't see any plausible mechanism for a boat of this length and beam and section having any substantial differences other than minor ones.

    Just thinking of ways to keep you damnable risk takers safe.
    I do appreciate that, and by all means, let's keep 'em coming. It's a topic worthy of serious exploration and testing.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Gopez View Post
    So...now that you are building what might become the perfect Salish Sea Sail & Oar (TM) boat, have you had any thoughts about the way this transom sporting ten plank beauty will recover from capsize?
    Capsize recovery videos (Sooty Tern and Arctic Tern) have shown a tendency for the double enders to be very unstable when swamped; canoe like...if that makes any sense. HV18 might be more stable when swamped. Thoughts on this?
    The hollow core spruce masts seem to be amazingly effective at preventing a turtle. This leads me to believe that HV18 just needs some way to displace potential volume of water when swamped. I think I’ve read that side bench floatation chambers, when submerged, can actually increase the likelihood of turtling. Would it make sense to incorporate inflatable/deflatable bags of some sort on windier days? Down low and lashed to centerboard case sides? Would impede foot room, but could be mostly deflated at camp and might double as mini air mattress.
    Just thinking of ways to keep you damnable risk takers safe.
    It's a fair question. It's one reason that I'm moving from campcruising a purely open boat to one with bulkheads and air tanks. Once the boat is built, I'll conduct a few tests. The results will drive iteration and improvement, if need be. At the moment, I'm just planning on end tanks ... no side tanks or bags. Let's see what happens.

    Also, as a side note, I think that people who don't campcruise Sail & Oar boats worry about this somewhat excessively. It's a real thing, and one that you can and should gameplan for, but my feeling is that most fatal maritime errors are set in motion before you leave the ramp due to poor preparation and planning.

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post


    I know this has been commented on before, but for whatever reason I did not find this to be the case with Rowan in my recent adventure. Was it the fact that I have fixed ballast in my boat and these others don't? Is it that I was just so busy and amped up that I didn't notice? Is it even perhaps that I am so regrettably experienced in the art of capsizing canoes that this larger boat seemed majestically stable in comparison? I would like to find this out, because I am not sure that this meme is objectively valid. Any sail & oar hull form with the narrower beam required for the rowing aspect is going to have a completely different stability profile, swamped or not, than something like a broad planing dinghy. A subjective impression of "tippiness" needs to be assessed according to comparables.

    I suspect that HV-18 is going to be very, very similar in most respects to any other boat in her general class, including things like Walkabout, Alaska, or the new Calendar Islands Yawl, as well as Ness Yawl and Snooty Tern. And it's going to be different than the broader forms like a Caledonia Yawl, Drascombe, or Navigator. I can't see any plausible mechanism for a boat of this length and beam and section having any substantial differences other than minor ones.

    I do appreciate that, and by all means, let's keep 'em coming. It's a topic worthy of serious exploration and testing.
    Hmmm ... I think it's "HV18" not "HV-18." Get your facts straight, McMullen.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    I didn't find my Arctic Tern unstable after capsizing either. I too was somewhat preoccupied with righting, bailing, retrieving gear... so perhaps I didn't notice. But with the mizzen sheeted in hard, it just rode head to wind like a happy though heavy little duck.

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    I'll be very interested in how Tim lands the planks on the keel and stem. When I converted Eric's HV13 design to glued lap, I just went blindly at it, improvising as I went. But, I can wait for the pictures that will surely come with time.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    http://

    Blindly? I'd say your prior builds have been excellent learning opportunities--that beauty is not a blind man's build!

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