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Thread: Hvalsoe 18

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by bott View Post
    How did you shape your foils for Big Food? Are you planning on using the same method?
    I shaped them by hand. I looked at graphs illustrating NACA 0012, then I sketched out some basic grids on the rudder and centerboard stock. Then I just figured it out. I think I used a mix of power planer, block plane, orbital sander, and rasp. Big Food's performance has increased quite a bit now that I have better foils. Windward and downwind. I'll be shaping my next foils by hand, too.

    As far as centerboard and rudder shape go, the best tip I received was from James, who told me to just mimic the wing shape of a WWII era Spitfire airplane.




    I gave it a shot. Here it is.



    I'm not sure I got the tip quite right, but it works.
    Last edited by Yeadon; 05-28-2014 at 05:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Tim, did you use templates to maintain symmetry of both sides?
    Gerard>
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    I just eyeballed it. The layers within the plywood tell the story pretty well. You just have to make one side look like the other.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    It looks like the more curved part is the leading edge, which is the opposite of what the Spitfire wing did. Maybe it's all about elliptical loading.

    Or am I reading those layers wrong?

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    There's what I plan to do. And then there's what I accomplish. That how I'd describe my woodworking ability. I'll see if I can't find a photo of the rudder on the boat.

    Here ...


    Last edited by Yeadon; 05-28-2014 at 06:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    I imagine that Pareto's Law applies readily to foil shaping, you'll get 80% the performance out of a solid 20% eyeball approx of the perfect NACA foil. Having the ply layered there as built-in elevation markings is a boon for sure.

    Did you try to match the same surface area given the "redesign" to the Spitfire profile?
    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Double-enders are optimistic.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    There's what I plan to do. And then there's what I accomplish. That how I'd describe my woodworking ability. I'll see if I can't find a photo of the rudder on the boat.

    Here ...


    Well, you wouldn't be the first to put the wings on backwards.


  8. #43
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Big Food has had no less than four rudders in seven years. Now you understand why. I make stuff. Screw them up. Build a new one. Repeat. Each is a little bit better iteration than the last though, so there's that.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Well, you wouldn't be the first to put the wings on backwards.

    That's funny

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Big Food has had no less than four rudders in seven years. Now you understand why. I make stuff. Screw them up. Build a new one. Repeat. Each is a little bit better iteration than the last though, so there's that.
    Actually, I don't see why that planform wouldn't work, and if it does, it's fine.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    That's funny
    Actually, quite a successful aircraft in its day, just like Big Food's rudder:

    a renowned Brazilian aeronaut residing in France, was among the first to follow Ferber's advice. After hearing tales of the Wrights' accomplishments, he set aside his dirigibles and began work on both a helicopter and an aircraft. He abandoned his helicopter but his aircraft, the 14 Bis, flew on 23 October 1906 for a little over 200 feet (60 meters) and then again on 12 November 1906 for 726 feet (220 meters), the first powered flights in Europe. These events galvanized Europe and fixed-wing flight research began in earnest. Later Santos Dumont designed the Demoiselle, a popular monoplane considered by many to be the first ultralight.

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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Thanks for this thread Tim. Now I'll stop bugging you to send me cell phone text updates.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Tim - I look forward to your thread it's a sweet looking little boat. James showed me lines back in back in April and I can't wait to see it them in three dimensions. It would be a shame to detract from those beautiful lines with wide planks I would definitely go with more.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Some comments about the design. It is a logical successor to the previous HV models, even with that nicely rounded forefoot. The overall profile and look is there. Of course the boat is double ended on the level designated waterline. The DWL is balanced with a hint of swedeform, biasing bouyancy aft of midships. The transom is high and soft, possibly a wee bit softer than the 16. Same beam/length ratio, pretty much. However this is not just a 'blown up' 16, although I did reference expanded 16 lines for comparison. I also took a look at the 13 again, that was interesting. Drafted manually, planimeter for calculations. This boat is just a little bigger than the 16 in the ends relatively speaking, particularly the sheer forward. A little more bouyancy, a little more dryness I hope in certain conditions. Displacement at DWL is about 750 lbs. Enough for company, a soloist will want some trim ballast. Plenty of displacement in reserve. The underwater profile has both drag and rocker with a fair sized skeg, as demonstrated with the previous models to strike a good balance between tracking under oar, and ease of tacking. I like a boat that tends to row straight and might put a little more emphasis in that direction than others.

    When the boat heels she picks up a good deal of bouyancy aft, but does not present a large immersed transom. This is not a boat where you park your fanny all the way in the stern, not if you are alone. The transom is not well suited for mounting an outboard. If a person had to have a small kicker, I think you put in in a well. The living room for the soloist is midships and the nest aft of midships, the forward edge of the aft bouyancy chamber could be quite a nice seat, and the mizzen perhaps a nice backrest.

    Although the boat was initially drawn to a plank keel rabbet, Tim was interested in a simple keel strip, so the loft reflects this change. This does not particularly effect the over all design. I'm still on the fence as to which I prefer. Part of the point of this project is to acquaint myself with construction details and ideas that I might be less familiar with.

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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    This is like having a front row seat at Present for the Creation, on a small briny scale. Thanks.
    Gerard>
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    Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    This is like having a front row seat at Present for the Creation, on a small briny scale. Thanks.

    Errr, Gerard you never mentioned you where a believer in Creation, but ya it's a fine thread!

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    We'll be lining off in a week or so. We're aiming to avoid faceting the station molds, to achieve a nice round bottom, and to build a boat that is lovely to look at. My best guess is that we're headed for 10 planks, though nine is plausible, too. From an personal aesthetic perspective I'm not a big fan of the four/five/six plank plywood-epoxy boats, though I do think a nice shape can be achieve at five or six. Even though this boat is exactly that, a plywood-epoxy boat, I want it to have traditional Hvalsoe traits.

    The transom shape is extremely similar to the HV16. The boat is a little fuller aft than the 16, so that probably changed the shape just a touch. I'm really interested in sitting it next to a 13, though. I tend to think the two will have striking similarities. Both are fuller than the 16. (I wonder what the prismatic coefficient would be for all three boats?)




    I'm building the boat with an inner/outer stem assembly. The photo you see above only shows the inner stem and forefoot/knee. For this boat, Eric did fair out the transition from the stem into the forefoot. He first did this on his own boat, Bandwagon, a year or so ago. We worked on this shape on the lofting floor for a long time. Above the waterline, I think the stem will have a very signature Hvalsoe look. This was by design. Every designer has a few visual cues that truly make it theirs ... the stem, transom, construction details of knees/thwarts/backbone. Eric worked hard to keep these visual cues intact.
    Go away for a month and people get up to all sorts of things.

    Tim, from my experience with Hornpipe, which required 8 planks, you'll need at least 9 planks to avoid faceting the moulds, because of the greater girth of this boat. The inner/outer stem construction is similar to what I used and a fairer transition should be easier when beaching. I'll be interested in seeing the transom shape as well.
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    Some comments about the design. It is a logical successor to the previous HV models, even with that nicely rounded forefoot. The overall profile and look is there. Of course the boat is double ended on the level designated waterline. The DWL is balanced with a hint of swedeform, biasing bouyancy aft of midships. The transom is high and soft, possibly a wee bit softer than the 16. Same beam/length ratio, pretty much. However this is not just a 'blown up' 16, although I did reference expanded 16 lines for comparison. I also took a look at the 13 again, that was interesting. Drafted manually, planimeter for calculations. This boat is just a little bigger than the 16 in the ends relatively speaking, particularly the sheer forward. A little more bouyancy, a little more dryness I hope in certain conditions. Displacement at DWL is about 750 lbs. Enough for company, a soloist will want some trim ballast. Plenty of displacement in reserve. The underwater profile has both drag and rocker with a fair sized skeg, as demonstrated with the previous models to strike a good balance between tracking under oar, and ease of tacking. I like a boat that tends to row straight and might put a little more emphasis in that direction than others.

    When the boat heels she picks up a good deal of bouyancy aft, but does not present a large immersed transom. This is not a boat where you park your fanny all the way in the stern, not if you are alone. The transom is not well suited for mounting an outboard. If a person had to have a small kicker, I think you put in in a well. The living room for the soloist is midships and the nest aft of midships, the forward edge of the aft bouyancy chamber could be quite a nice seat, and the mizzen perhaps a nice backrest.

    Although the boat was initially drawn to a plank keel rabbet, Tim was interested in a simple keel strip, so the loft reflects this change. This does not particularly effect the over all design. I'm still on the fence as to which I prefer. Part of the point of this project is to acquaint myself with construction details and ideas that I might be less familiar with.
    Eric,

    Your design rationale is remarkably similar to what I have been musing about in my mind over in my other thread on the SAO 18 that I've been fooling about with, where I have started in on building a model, and which I will get back to now that I'm back from overseas. However I used Freeship and don't have nearly your years of experience or your eye for detail. I'll be really interested to see how different the two boats are, for very similar purposes.
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Paul, I was riffing off Dean Acheson's memoir Present at the Creation.
    Gerard>
    ​Freeland, WA

    Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Paul, I was riffing off Dean Acheson's memoir Present at the Creation.

    Ah, I see! I should have known!! But Er,ahhh , humm , who the hell is this Dean Acheson, LOL. Guess I'll have to Google him up eh!

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18



    Set up is underway. The strongback is on casters, as you can see that this boat will take up a lot of my shop. It's my plan that I'll wheel the boat outside during the line-off process, and other times when I need to get a better view of things. It'll also probably get wheeled outside when there's milling to be done.

    In the photo above, all the station molds have been beveled. Since this photo was taken, I've also cut out slots in the station molds to assist with clamping down planking.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    I still need to figure out the transom. I had planned on making it with 12mm ply along with an internal frame. The frame causes a little bit of awkwardness with the addition of the decked flotation chambers. (Not a lot of complexity, but enough to think about a simpler solution.)

    Lately, I've been thinking that I'd go down to Crosscut and buy a sheet of 15mm or 18mm (or whatever they've got). The transom needs enough of a land to attach the plank, especially during the planking process.

    I could take a pair of 12mm blanks and laminate them together, I suppose. Eric has suggested this as a solution. But suddenly that seems like extra unnecessary weight out at the end of my little boat.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    The strongback is on casters, as you can see that this boat will take up a lot of my shop. It's my plan that I'll wheel the boat outside during the line-off process, and other times when I need to get a better view of things. It'll also probably get wheeled outside when there's milling to be done.
    Tim, is your shop floor level enough, or your strongback rigid enough, that you don't need to worry about alignment when wheeling in and out? My shop floor has more than an inch of slope over the distance of the strongback (I didn't pour the floor), so I had to compensate for that when building the strongback and I didn't put it on casters
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    Tim, is your shop floor level enough, or your strongback rigid enough, that you don't need to worry about alignment when wheeling in and out? My shop floor has more than an inch of slope over the distance of the strongback (I didn't pour the floor), so I had to compensate for that when building the strongback and I didn't put it on casters
    That's a great question. I think I'm okay. The strongback is pretty sturdy, though I do plan on stiffening it even further. And the floor has always seemed extremely level. There is a slight rise right at the opening near the garage to keep the floor dry from rain on the driveway. The casters are nowhere near it, though. But because you brought it up as a concern I'll take a closer look this evening.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    That's a great question. I think I'm okay. The strongback is pretty sturdy, though I do plan on stiffening it even further. And the floor has always seemed extremely level. There is a slight rise right at the opening near the garage to keep the floor dry from rain on the driveway. The casters are nowhere near it, though. But because you brought it up as a concern I'll take a closer look this evening.
    My floor looked level too. It was only when I checked with a laser level I discovered how level it wasn't. Maybe if your floor isn't level you might want to try a variation on what I did. Put the casters on so you can move it around, but also install some T-nuts so that you can level it up for when you get down to business of fastening wood together. I have legs every 4 feet on my strongback and have T-nuts on the bottom of each of them
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    This boat is going to fill a growing need in the sail and oar world, namely a full sized S&O boat that isn't a sooty tern! It seems there are a number of boats with a similar mission statement being created lately, including one on my own drawing board. I'm very interested to see how this turns out.

    Any chance we can get a shot of the lines plan or lofting board to get an idea of the overall shape? Or is that still top secret info?

    This is going to be a fun one to watch.

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    Nothing good can come from Sail & Oar homogenization.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Nothing good can come from Sail & Oar homogenization.
    That's how all the sail-n-oar boats eventually come out with buck teeth, hunchbacks, and ears that stick out all funny.

    Diversity!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Double-enders are optimistic.

  29. #64
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bott View Post
    That's how all the sail-n-oar boats eventually come out with buck teeth, hunchbacks, and ears that stick out all funny. Diversity!
    There's no shame in it, of course, but this is probably why Rowan has a vestigial tail.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Looking good Tim.

    Chances are pretty good that your floor is sloped down towards the door. They get poured that way so the water drains out, at least that is what the guy who did my shop said.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    There's no shame in it, of course, but this is probably why Rowan has a vestigial tail.
    And why so many boats have furry bottoms.

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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Nothing good can come from Sail & Oar homogenization.
    Absolutely true! You guys go and get yer own designs, dammit!

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    I like the idea of clearly marking the spots where the casters rest--maybe even glue little speed bumps of wood to the floor for positive locating--to make sure that the building jig goes back to the exact same space it was leveled to when you've moved it out of place for one reason or another. This will make sure you don't have to go back and tediously re-level things with an irregular floor.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    You might consider utilizing an I-beam style floor joist to create an even stiffer base, something that will hold its shape regardless of the floor contour.

    That kind of rigidity, however, across 18', might require welding.


    re: garage floors. All slabs (ie garage, patio, driveway) should be poured with consideration for drainage. No garage floor should be level. 1/4" of slope per foot generally.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

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    Default Re: Hvalsoe 18

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    Eric,

    Your design rationale is remarkably similar to what I have been musing about in my mind over in my other thread on the SAO 18 that I've been fooling about with, where I have started in on building a model, and which I will get back to now that I'm back from overseas. However I used Freeship and don't have nearly your years of experience or your eye for detail. I'll be really interested to see how different the two boats are, for very similar purposes.
    Alex,
    You might have as much actual sail and oar experience as I. And that is worth quite a lot. Fair to say our solutions will be far from identical. But the similarity of purpose should be evident. I suspect you have carried more displacement aft with a harder turn at the transom. My boat makes no pretense whatsoever at being a planing hull. However I trust that it will be well mannered. You have a more spooned forefoot and bow. I recognize the advantages of such a profile for running up on the beach. I'll never forget James' beach landing with refreshments up north. My forefoot is rounded but still has the angulation that says 'Hvalsoe', at least in this design series. I'll preserve a little more waterline length, and hopefully achieve the desired balance of tracking and maneuverability. I also think you might be designing to a little less displacement, which is legitimate. I would be very frustrated working with a computer program that did not give me fair lines.
    Last edited by Eric Hvalsoe; 06-05-2014 at 03:05 AM.

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