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Thread: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

  1. #1
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    Default Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    Will we ever learn.


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ial-documents/

    STRANDED WITHOUT A STRATEGY
    Bush and Obama had polar-opposite plans to win the war. Both were destined to fail.
    By Craig Whitlock Dec. 9, 2019

    In hundreds of confidential interviews that constitute a secret history of the war, U.S. and allied officials admitted they veered off in directions that had little to do with al-Qaeda or 9/11. By expanding the original mission, they said they adopted fatally flawed warfighting strategies based on misguided assumptions about a country they did not understand.

    The result: an unwinnable conflict with no easy way out.


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...tion-building/

    George W. Bush, Barack Obama and Donald Trump all promised the same thing: The United States would not get stuck with the burden of “nation-building” in Afghanistan.

    In October 2001, shortly after ordering U.S. forces to invade, Bush said he would push the United Nations to “take over the so-called nation-building.”

    Eight years later, Obama insisted his government would not get mired in a long “nation-building project,” either. Eight years after that, Trump made a similar vow: “We’re not nation-building again.”

    Yet nation-building is exactly what the United States has tried to do in war-battered Afghanistan — on a colossal scale.

    Since 2001, Washington has spent more on nation-building in Afghanistan than in any country ever, allocating $133 billion for reconstruction, aid programs and the Afghan security forces.

    Adjusted for inflation, that is more than the United States spent in Western Europe with the Marshall Plan after World War II.

    Unlike the Marshall Plan, however, the exorbitant nation-building project for Afghanistan went awry from the start and grew worse as the war dragged on, according to a trove of confidential government interviews with diplomats, military officials and aid workers who played a direct role in the conflict.
    Last edited by LeeG; 12-09-2019 at 08:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Will we ever learn.
    Doesn't look like it.

    More than the Marshall Plan. Hay que joderse, as they say.
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Doesn't look like it.

    More than the Marshall Plan. Hay que joderse, as they say.
    Man our country is so rich, a trillion spent, a trillion in tax cuts, 100,000’s casualties. It’s like there’s no consequences for this, except for those on the ground. And the American political system picks an individual who has made a life dodging consequences with money.

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Man our country is so rich, a trillion spent, a trillion in tax cuts, 100,000’s casualties. It’s like there’s no consequences for this, except for those on the ground. And the American political system picks an individual who has made a life dodging consequences with money.
    Agreed, but you missed the lesson of that election - Mr Trump was not one of the ones who proposed and executed all this garbage. People insist on missing the point - Trump was not elected. The Establishment was refuted. Hillary was every bit Establishment, from her "deplorables" statement to her hugs with Henry Kissinger.

    Trump was a terrible choice but he was the only one who wasn't up to their ears in past fiascoes and deceit. And we have to admit, with any of the previous several administrations we'd have been through three wars by now. So there is that consolation, at least.

    The Establishment still refuses to admit this, which is why Trump will be reelected. We do not want their plan for our future. The candidates they are proposing are the same old garbage, and we do not want that. The evils of a Trump pale before the evils of our past many administrations. People here actively despise Trump but he has done nothing compared to George W or Richard M. Nothing.

    If the establishment can't come up with something better, they are doomed to Forever Trump (and possibly worse.)

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    Quote Originally Posted by Favorite View Post
    Agreed, but you missed the lesson of that election - Mr Trump was not one of the ones who proposed and executed all this garbage. People insist on missing the point - Trump was not elected. The Establishment was refuted. Hillary was every bit Establishment, from her "deplorables" statement to her hugs with Henry Kissinger.

    Trump was a terrible choice but he was the only one who wasn't up to their ears in past fiascoes and deceit. And we have to admit, with any of the previous several administrations we'd have been through three wars by now. So there is that consolation, at least.

    The Establishment still refuses to admit this, which is why Trump will be reelected. We do not want their plan for our future. The candidates they are proposing are the same old garbage, and we do not want that. The evils of a Trump pale before the evils of our past many administrations. People here actively despise Trump but he has done nothing compared to George W or Richard M. Nothing.

    If the establishment can't come up with something better, they are doomed to Forever Trump (and possibly worse.)
    Picking Trump because he has no gov’t history is like picking a bus driver who’s never had an accident because he’s never driven a vehicle. The “lesson” is that a disturbing number of Americans are motivated by bigotry, fear and ignorance.

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    It's not his fault. The Kurds didn't help us in WW2.
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    Picking Trump because he has no gov’t history is like picking a bus driver who’s never had an accident because he’s never driven a vehicle. The “lesson” is that a disturbing number of Americans are motivated by bigotry, fear and ignorance.
    When you're sick of politicians, and bus driver sounds pretty good.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    If Trump gets us out of Afghanistan, that will be his legacy, and probably his undoing. Too many of his supporters would rather stay there.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    Quote Originally Posted by Favorite View Post
    Agreed, but you missed the lesson of that election - Mr Trump was not one of the ones who proposed and executed all this garbage. People insist on missing the point - Trump was not elected. The Establishment was refuted. Hillary was every bit Establishment, from her "deplorables" statement to her hugs with Henry Kissinger.

    Trump was a terrible choice but he was the only one who wasn't up to their ears in past fiascoes and deceit. And we have to admit, with any of the previous several administrations we'd have been through three wars by now. So there is that consolation, at least.

    The Establishment still refuses to admit this, which is why Trump will be reelected. We do not want their plan for our future. The candidates they are proposing are the same old garbage, and we do not want that. The evils of a Trump pale before the evils of our past many administrations. People here actively despise Trump but he has done nothing compared to George W or Richard M. Nothing.

    If the establishment can't come up with something better, they are doomed to Forever Trump (and possibly worse.)
    You don't burn down the ******* house to change the wallpaper!
    Nosce te ipsum

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    BTW LeeG, that article was also referenced to on Linked In, by none other than Erik Prince, with the same disdain for the leaders who failed to understand Afghanistan.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    When you're sick of politicians, and bus driver sounds pretty good.
    If you elect a bus driver he’s now a politician. Buttegieg is right, our political process needs fixing.

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    If you elect a bus driver he’s now a politician.
    So deep.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    what is so bad with nation building? Look at the countries we helped. Germany, Japan, and South Korea. All are free and clear democracies, power houses of capitalism and industry, and some of our best allies. I think building up Afghanistan would have made us a wonderful ally in a place where we sorely need it
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

    -Dalai Lama

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    Quote Originally Posted by Favorite View Post
    Agreed, but you missed the lesson of that election - Mr Trump was not one of the ones who proposed and executed all this garbage. People insist on missing the point - Trump was not elected. The Establishment was refuted. Hillary was every bit Establishment, from her "deplorables" statement to her hugs with Henry Kissinger.

    Trump was a terrible choice but he was the only one who wasn't up to their ears in past fiascoes and deceit. And we have to admit, with any of the previous several administrations we'd have been through three wars by now. So there is that consolation, at least.

    The Establishment still refuses to admit this, which is why Trump will be reelected. We do not want their plan for our future. The candidates they are proposing are the same old garbage, and we do not want that. The evils of a Trump pale before the evils of our past many administrations. People here actively despise Trump but he has done nothing compared to George W or Richard M. Nothing.

    If the establishment can't come up with something better, they are doomed to Forever Trump (and possibly worse.)
    Yeah.

    Anti-establishment.

    Right.

    You claim you're against the establishment, and that's fine, but you decided that you would just burn down the entire US Constitution with it.

    It's like you blew up the train and everyone on it because the conductor kept making his scheduled stops.

    On top of that [redacted], you think you should be respected for it.




    Oh, dear God.

    I just had to actually read that thing:
    The Establishment still refuses to admit this, which is why Trump will be reelected. We do not want their plan for our future. The candidates they are proposing are the same old garbage, and we do not want that. The evils of a Trump pale before the evils of our past many administrations. People here actively despise Trump but he has done nothing compared to George W or Richard M. Nothing.

    If the establishment can't come up with something better, they are doomed to Forever Trump (and possibly worse.)
    Precisely where do you think you fit into this?

    Sure, it's easy to tell that you think sticking it to the elites is fun, but who and what do you think will protect you?

    If you ask 'From what?' I'll know way more about you than is comfortable.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    Preferring LeeG's bus driver in post 5 to someone actually suited by temperament and experience, for arguably the most important job in our government is boneheaded.

    Only deep for a lazy and shallow thinker; it shouldn't be that hard.
    sproing


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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Yeah.

    Anti-establishment.

    Right.

    You claim you're against the establishment, and that's fine, but you decided that you would just burn down the entire US Constitution with it.
    It's an Americanism that became a bot-ism. The tip-off:

    The evils of a Trump pale before the evils of our past many administrations.
    i.e. a what-about-ism in defense of Trump.
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: Afghanistan Papers - WaPo

    One of those terms I keep seeing brought up all over. Who exactly are "the elites"? Is it career politicians, professors of politics, learned people in general, or just those of us who live in the North east and West Coast?

    As for the "evils" of previous administrations: yes, invading Afghanistan and Iraq was a serious evil, as was keeping us there. We certainly have done a lot of damage to Iran and many other countries, but to be fair, much of that is baggage from the Proceeding Admins. I am sure Obama really wanted us out of the Mid-east, he really did seem to try for a bit, but I am sure the Reality of the situation reared it's ugly head in ways that people with a security clearance could never know. It did not help that the GOP members of Congress and the Senate tried very hard to keep us there.

    But does any of that compare to the evilness of this Administration? I am going to say this one is much more evil. Not only has The Donald kept us in the Middle East, he bombed Syria, left the Kurds (our allies) to fend for themselves in the face of genocide, separated kids from their parents at the border for no other reason than they could make money, and made it a point to try to stop all visits from "sh!t hole" countries for no other reason than they were Brown and practiced another religion.

    Obama may have been divisive just because of who he was, but The Donald is much more so because he wants to be. That is evilness
    Last edited by Art Haberland; 12-09-2019 at 11:20 PM.
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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