Is this thread offensive?

[George.]

Astrology is a fake science - a pseudoscience. It has no basis in evidence or reality. It is based only on tradition, ancient texts, and the mistaken ideas of people in the ancient Middle East about the nature of the universe. Despite this, millions of people believe in astrology. The media, including serious news media, treats it as if it were a thing, and devotes daily space to its proponents.

Is it offensive to say in public that astrology is not real, that the universe doesn't work that way at all, and that public institutions like newspapers shouldn't legitimize it?

[TomF]

Not offensive. But I think newspapers should be able to print wee astrology bits of column filler as freely as they print equally fact-based advertising or political quotes.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

I'm fairly certain that you could be more offensive if you tried harder.

I don't know anyone who cares about astrology.

[wizbang 13]

Did you spell "religion" rong ?

[oznabrag]

Astrology is a fake science - a pseudoscience. It has no basis in evidence or reality. It is based only on tradition, ancient texts, and the mistaken ideas of people in the ancient Middle East about the nature of the universe. Despite this, millions of people believe in astrology. The media, including serious news media, treats it as if it were a thing, and devotes daily space to its proponents.

Is it offensive to say in public that astrology is not real, that the universe doesn't work that way at all, and that public institutions like newspapers shouldn't legitimize it?

Uhhhh . . .

I had a girlfriend once who got an astrologer to read my chart as a gag birthday gift.

WAY too accurate to be pure BS.

Oh, and to your question, NOTHING is offensive any more.

[icyb]

Nancy Reagan ran the Whitehouse by it didn't she!

[lupussonic]

I once met two women who could NOT differentiate between Mars the Roman god of war, and the big red blob floating around the universe.

Deeply worrisome.

Religion is darkness.

[George Jung]

'readings' tend to be vague enough, broad enough, to encompass something in most folks lives.

And folks* tend to want to believe in magic.

*some folks

[TomF]

As I'd had it explained to me, the Greek pantheon of the gods - which is what gets represented - are really representations of principles and traits which show up in an individual's character. In Astrology, the person doing a "good" reading is actually observing and describing the traits in an individual which are mashing together.

How much of that is what a good counselor does using the principles we prefer in modern "scientific" versions of talk therapy ... but expressed using a different symbol system ... well.

[amish rob]

Now, I’m not saying nothing, but the Babylonians were doing this during the Chaldean period. In Ur.

You know. Where that guy left from, with Ram?

[Garret]

I occasionally read my horoscope for giggles. I have also had a real one done & it's far more complex to calculate than most people would think.

I've also talked with psychometrists who, by touching something of mine, were able to tell me things about myself that they had absolutely no way of knowing. I've also had psychic readings that were surprisingly accurate & not just in generalities.

So - is any of this science? Not as most people think of it - but there are a whole lotta things we just don't understand.

[TomF]

Herself learned about astrology when she was an English Lit grad student ... because she wanted to understand what Chaucer was talking about, maundering on about exactly how the "star crossed lovers" were "star crossed." WTF was Chaucer implying, that most of Chaucer's audience knew right off ... and which modern readers didn't understand?

Spooked herself, casting a few charts for people, and discovering a whole lot about herself and such folks which rang true, and was quite specific. There's no reason that it ought to work at all in terms of science - but for whatever reason it appeared to be surprisingly specific as a descriptive tool. Not so much as a predictive tool.

[Peerie Maa]

As I'd had it explained to me, the Greek pantheon of the gods - which is what gets represented - are really representations of principles and traits which show up in an individual's character. In Astrology, the person doing a "good" reading is actually observing and describing the traits in an individual which are mashing together.

How much of that is what a good counselor does using the principles we prefer in modern "scientific" versions of talk therapy ... but expressed using a different symbol system ... well.

This is it.
How long does Gypsy Rose Lea spend talking to you before reading the palm or Tarot or whatever?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

SWMBO, does a pretty good tarot card or tea leaves act,all of which is based on generalities and careful observation.

[oznabrag]

I occasionally read my horoscope for giggles. I have also had a real one done & it's far more complex to calculate than most people would think.

I've also talked with psychometrists who, by touching something of mine, were able to tell me things about myself that they had absolutely no way of knowing. I've also had psychic readings that were surprisingly accurate & not just in generalities.

So - is any of this science? Not as most people think of it - but there are a whole lotta things we just don't understand.

Herself learned about astrology when she was an English Lit grad student ... because she wanted to understand what Chaucer was talking about, maundering on about exactly how the "star crossed lovers" were "star crossed." WTF was Chaucer implying, that most of Chaucer's audience knew right off ... and which modern readers didn't understand?

Spooked herself, casting a few charts for people, and discovering a whole lot about herself and such folks which rang true, and was quite specific. There's no reason that it ought to work at all in terms of science - but for whatever reason it appeared to be surprisingly specific as a descriptive tool. Not so much as a predictive tool.

Persackly.

[amish rob]

We watched Willow with the kids the other day. I had forgotten about the part where the shaman throws the bones, then whispers to Willow, “The bones tell me nothing...”

Hehehe.

Oh. And, Kaya!

[Durnik]

I occasionally read my horoscope for giggles. I have also had a real one done & it's far more complex to calculate than most people would think.

I've also talked with psychometrists who, by touching something of mine, were able to tell me things about myself that they had absolutely no way of knowing. I've also had psychic readings that were surprisingly accurate & not just in generalities.

So - is any of this science? Not as most people think of it - but there are a whole lotta things we just don't understand.

ikr?

J. B. S. Haldane - “The Universe is not only queerer than we imagine—it is queerer than we can imagine.”

if everything is cycles.. and it appears to be.. what do you call studying cycles?

personally, I spend more energy monitoring the absolute and relative positions of Sol, Luna, & Earth's orbit (than which group of stars were hidden in the light of Sol etc when my mom popped me) to determine the well being of my gardens (and why my body aches or not), but hey, whatever.

but random experiences in a fairly eclectic life have done nothing but confirm JBS's observation.

[Garret]

Herself learned about astrology when she was an English Lit grad student ... because she wanted to understand what Chaucer was talking about, maundering on about exactly how the "star crossed lovers" were "star crossed." WTF was Chaucer implying, that most of Chaucer's audience knew right off ... and which modern readers didn't understand?

Spooked herself, casting a few charts for people, and discovering a whole lot about herself and such folks which rang true, and was quite specific. There's no reason that it ought to work at all in terms of science - but for whatever reason it appeared to be surprisingly specific as a descriptive tool. Not so much as a predictive tool.

I generally agree with you, but I did have one thing happen that has stuck with me for almost 50 years. Not astrology, but "close" by many people's way of thinking. I had a psychic reading done in ~73-4 & it was enlightening. It started off descriptive (& surprisingly accurate) and he then went on to future stuff. At the time I was working in an auto parts store & part time as a mechanic. As he described the future (remember this was before the days of computers), he said he saw me "working at a typewriter while watching TV" & went on to say I'd be doing this for many years - though he added he didn't fully understand it.

Since 82 I have been working full-time as a software developer - typing away in front of a screen & the early monitors looked much like a TV. It was a couple of years in before I put it together.

Scientific? Nope - probably not - but remarkable nonetheless.

[John Smith]

I remember, a very long time ago, and professor had envelopes marked with each sign of the zodiac. He established the birthdates of all in the class, and hand them the envelope with their sign.

They all seemed to think it described them well.

ALL cards were exactly the same.

[Gerarddm]

" The fault, dear Brutus, is not in the stars - it is in ourselves ".

Now, tarot cards, on the other hand...

[Rich Jones]

Next you'll be telling me there is no Easter Bunny....

[Garret]

How could anyone say that?

[TomF]

I am conscious that many things we use now without thinking twice would have seemed like magic to our own ancestors of not very long ago. Some such things, though I know that they're not magic, may as well be still, to me.

I comfort myself that the intricacies and mechanisms of a variety of things our ancestors knew how to do, or which they'd observed as helpful and meaningful practices but didn't understand in their inner workings, we can now explain.

Or think we can.

In this pandemic time, I've been reminded of the empirical value of some of the practices which "plague doctors" used to keep themselves safe - rudimentary versions of PPE, of masks, of social distancing etc. - in a time well before any scientific understanding of viral or bacterial causes of infection. The notion that disease could be spread by "bad air," by noxious humours ... is not so different from describing how disease spreads through aerosols and droplets. In another 200 years or so, our descendants may have equally jovial conversations about our archaic understanding of such things, but would our model of understanding have been wrong? Or merely incomplete, with the empirical practices informing a practical theory which could, after all, only conform with our level of knowledge at the time.

I suspect that many of the things we presently consider too weird - in the areas we've relegated to the occult or quackery - may emerge as having some actual basis in quanta or multiverse-interconnections or etc. which by then will have become as normative and explanatory as germ theory is to us.

[Oldersalt]

"I just thank my lucky stars I don't believe in astrology"

"Astrology was invented to make economics look good."

[Breakaway]

No, not offensive.

But if one considers us small cogs in the universe--that we are truly " million year old carbon"---then perhaps the effects of changes in the heavens (sorry) do have an affect in us ....in ways we cannot yet perceive. Maybe after we have evolved further--we do believe in evolution, yes?--we will have the ability to perceive them.

Kevin

PS--Lay off Tarot cards and the casting of sea shells.

[Peerie Maa]

Anyone who thinks that stars and planets can influence how our lives pan out over such vast distances need their bumps felt.

Remember Croesus at the oracle of Delphi The oracle made a correct prediction, but Croesus thought that she meant that the other side would fall.

[TomF]

Anyone who thinks that stars and planets can influence how our lives pan out over such vast distances need their bumps felt.

Remember Croesus at the oracle of Delphi The oracle made a correct prediction, but Croesus thought that she meant that the other side would fall.

The Oracle famously always gave the same advice: "know thyself."

Still good advice, whether one does the learning by reading bumps, tea-leaves, stars, or Jungian archetypes.

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

We watched Willow with the kids the other day. I had forgotten about the part where the shaman throws the bones, then whispers to Willow, “The bones tell me nothing...”

Hehehe.

Oh. And, Kaya!

Played by the magical Billy Barty, one of my Hero's.
He also said,"Magic is the bloodstream of the Universe: Forget all you know or think you know. All that you require is your intuition."

[amish rob]

Played by the magical Billy Barty, one of my Hero's.
He also said,"Magic is the bloodstream of the Universe: Forget all you know or think you know. All that you require is your intuition."

Oh, aye. My kids know him best as Noodles McIntosh, the camera man from UHF.

[George.]

So the consensus is that even though a lot of people believe in astrology, and many others think there might be something to it, it's OK to call it as BS?

[webishop14]

Herself learned about astrology when she was an English Lit grad student ... because she wanted to understand what Chaucer was talking about, maundering on about exactly how the "star crossed lovers" were "star crossed." WTF was Chaucer implying, that most of Chaucer's audience knew right off ... and which modern readers didn't understand?

Spooked herself, casting a few charts for people, and discovering a whole lot about herself and such folks which rang true, and was quite specific. There's no reason that it ought to work at all in terms of science - but for whatever reason it appeared to be surprisingly specific as a descriptive tool. Not so much as a predictive tool.

In my early twenties I was into astrology. A young woman who I had never met asked me to do her chart, so I did. When talking to her about the chart later, I began mentioning specifics regarding her parents, and the woman freaked out -- got up and ran out of the restaurant.

Yes, it worked well as a descriptive. As did casting the yarrow stalks for the I Ching. I abandoned both when advised by an I Ching passage I had thrown to that I should stop bothering the master with trivialities.

Science? Science does a pretty good job of describing Einstein's Space-Time continuum. But Science still doesn't know everything. Plus the Space-Time continuum only serves us as an interface to reality -- it can't cover it all, so it simplifies.

[LeeG]

I once met two women who could NOT differentiate between Mars the Roman god of war, and the big red blob floating around the universe.

Deeply worrisome.

Religion is darkness.

When I was young and impressionable an older woman who was having her way with me started using the iching to decide if she would continue her ways. Man was I relieved when it said stop.

[jonboy]

Although the ancient greek theme of Troilus and Cressida was used by Chaucer and Shakespeare, 'Star-crossed lovers' is Romeo and Juliet not Chaucer

[LeeG]

So the consensus is that even though a lot of people believe in astrology, and many others think there might be something to it, it's OK to call it as BS?

heck yeah, besides it can be composted!

[J.Madison]

You guys worry me sometimes....


good troll btw