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Thread: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

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    Default Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Insist that Capitalism is the only economic system compatible with Liberal Democracy?
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Fear, greed, one is the product of ignorance and one is of evil.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Insist that Capitalism is the only economic system compatible with Liberal Democracy?
    Maybe not the only one, but the one that most reliably asserts property to be a fundamental right.
    Five, 10 years from now — different party. You’re going to have a worker’s party. -- Donald Trump, May 17, 2016

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    .
    It is due to ideology... which is akin to religious belief. Which also explains right-wingnuts, Tea Baggers, and Trumpkins. But I repeat myself....
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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Rational?
    Capitalists be merchants, dude.
    There is only one train of thought for them and whether it is war or a pandemic they want a profit.

    And Communism as an ideal always seems to be quickly dominated by a despot. Of course that can happen in Capitalism as well, witness republicans and trump et al.

    "Socialism" as initiated by Franklin Rosevelt during the depression seemed pretty good.

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    White 2011, pp. 455-456 : "For those who prefer totals broken down by country, here are reasonable estimates for the number of people who died under Communist regimes from execution, labor camps, famine, ethnic cleansing, and desperate flight in leaky boats:
    • China: 40,000,000
    • Soviet Union: 20,000,000
    • North Korea: 3,000,000
    • Ethiopia: 2,000,000
    • Cambodia: 1,700,000
    • Vietnam: 365,000 (after 1975)
    • Yugoslavia: 175,000
    • East Germany: 100,000
    • Romania: 100,000
    • North Vietnam: 50,000 (internally, 1954-75)
    • Cuba: 50,000
    • Mongolia: 35,000
    • Poland: 30,000
    • Bulgaria: 20,000
    • Czechoslovakia: 11,000
    • Albania: 5,000
    • Hungary: 5,000
    • Rough Total: 70 million

    (This rough total doesn't include the 20 million killed in the civil wars that brought Communists into power, or the 11 million who died in the proxy wars of the Cold War. Both sides probably share the blame for these to a certain extent. These two categories overlap somewhat, so once the duplicates are weeded out, it seems that some 26 million people died in Communist-inspired wars.)"
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Capitalism is not the issue.

    It is enshrining unregulated laissez-faire capitalism in law that is the problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co. or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People


    An impressive list posted above. So how many have been killed under democratic-socialist systems? I am thinking of Scandinavia, the UK, etc.
    "I trust it [Russia Today] more that many elements of the Western media, which has demonstrated a much greater incentive to lie, or censor.'" -- Sky Blue, 03/27/20

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    If the US is like Aus, capitalism works till it doesn't, and with the arrival of the virus it is in deep doo doo.
    The 1% will survive, business only with the taxpayers help, and consequently the taxpayer should have a share in the ownership, administration and profits in the future.

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    There is regulated capitalism and then there is unregulated capitalism... and neither need preclude humane medical policies.

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Insist that Capitalism is the only economic system compatible with Liberal Democracy?
    What do you suggest?

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Lack of imagination.

    I love it when you suggest that capitalism is faulty and idiots then assume you're a communist!

    I imagine if they were living in the tropics and found it a bit hot, they'd move to Antarctica.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Lack of imagination.

    I love it when you suggest that capitalism is faulty and idiots then assume you're a communist!

    I imagine if they were living in the tropics and found it a bit hot, they'd move to Antarctica.

    Rick
    Well, there's plenty of those on this thread, but the funniest thing is that the OP doesn't ask OR assert that Capitalism is faulty, just why is Capitalism assumed to be the perfect husband to Liberal Democracy!

    As a husband to Liberal Democracy, Capitalism is demonstrably abusive, and seems to constantly scheme up ways to kill her once and for all.

    Let me tell you, folks, if Capitalism is the best we can do, we're doomed to have the vast majority of humans living in grinding poverty for eternity.

    Also, y'all can leave your standard defense of 'well-regulated Capitalism' at home, because I ain't buyin'.

    It sounds almost exactly like 'separate but equal'.

    Capitalism is built on greed, which is why it 'needs to be regulated' in the first place.

    If we insist on an economy based on greed, we will reap poverty, injustice and disease.
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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    White 2011, pp. 455-456 : "For those who prefer totals broken down by country, here are reasonable estimates for the number of people who died under Communist regimes from execution, labor camps, famine, ethnic cleansing, and desperate flight in leaky boats:
    • China: 40,000,000
    • Soviet Union: 20,000,000
    • North Korea: 3,000,000
    • Ethiopia: 2,000,000
    • Cambodia: 1,700,000
    • Vietnam: 365,000 (after 1975)
    • Yugoslavia: 175,000
    • East Germany: 100,000
    • Romania: 100,000
    • North Vietnam: 50,000 (internally, 1954-75)
    • Cuba: 50,000
    • Mongolia: 35,000
    • Poland: 30,000
    • Bulgaria: 20,000
    • Czechoslovakia: 11,000
    • Albania: 5,000
    • Hungary: 5,000
    • Rough Total: 70 million

    (This rough total doesn't include the 20 million killed in the civil wars that brought Communists into power, or the 11 million who died in the proxy wars of the Cold War. Both sides probably share the blame for these to a certain extent. These two categories overlap somewhat, so once the duplicates are weeded out, it seems that some 26 million people died in Communist-inspired wars.)"
    Impressive.

    You got anything relevant to the OP?
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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Maybe not the only one, but the one that most reliably asserts property to be a fundamental right.
    Well, there are a growing number of homeless people. I guess they've been stripped of their rights.
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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    I think you think it's faulty. I think it's faulty. Faulty doesn't mean it doesn't work at all or doesn't have a purpose. It just means it ain't just right. It's faulty.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    I think you think it's faulty. I think it's faulty. Faulty doesn't mean it doesn't work at all or doesn't have a purpose. It just means it ain't just right. It's faulty.

    Rick
    Oh, yes, I do think it's faulty.

    Fundamentally flawed, even.
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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    White 2011, pp. 455-456 : "For those who prefer totals broken down by country, here are reasonable estimates for the number of people who died under Communist regimes from execution, labor camps, famine, ethnic cleansing, and desperate flight in leaky boats:
    • China: 40,000,000
    • Soviet Union: 20,000,000
    • North Korea: 3,000,000
    • Ethiopia: 2,000,000
    • Cambodia: 1,700,000
    • Vietnam: 365,000 (after 1975)
    • Yugoslavia: 175,000
    • East Germany: 100,000
    • Romania: 100,000
    • North Vietnam: 50,000 (internally, 1954-75)
    • Cuba: 50,000
    • Mongolia: 35,000
    • Poland: 30,000
    • Bulgaria: 20,000
    • Czechoslovakia: 11,000
    • Albania: 5,000
    • Hungary: 5,000
    • Rough Total: 70 million

    (This rough total doesn't include the 20 million killed in the civil wars that brought Communists into power, or the 11 million who died in the proxy wars of the Cold War. Both sides probably share the blame for these to a certain extent. These two categories overlap somewhat, so once the duplicates are weeded out, it seems that some 26 million people died in Communist-inspired wars.)"
    You do know the conversation isn't about communism; don't-cha? You do also know that the US military is the largest socialized program in the world? That's socialism for your fear addled mind. So yeah, you can go back to SingTFU and playing with your dolls. Run along.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    You do know the conversation isn't about communism; don't-cha? You do also know that the US military is the largest socialized program in the world? That's socialism for your fear addled mind. So yeah, you can go back to SingTFU and playing with your dolls. Run along.
    I would like to know what economic system is beingborooosed? As an alternative?

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    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I would like to know what economic system is beingborooosed? As an alternative?
    I don't know about Ozna, but I would say the current one isn't working for most of us. There are some good models in Europe, none are perfect but they're far better than what we have here and now. I like Democratic Socialist, but that covers a lot of ground, like the aforementioned MIC and the Corporate welfare state we live in now. Maybe we point the socialism we currently have to the many instead of the few, that would be a nice start; what do you think?
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I would like to know what economic system is beingborooosed? As an alternative?
    'Being proposed'?
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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Insist that Capitalism is the only economic system compatible with Liberal Democracy?
    Perhaps they are familiar with capitalism and find it to their liking.

    There are certainly some people who are unhappy with US capitalism. But it is clear that some want to improve their lives under the system rather than improve the system. I guess that includes bot liberals and conservatives.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    The following thread was the genesis of the OP's inquiry. Might help discussion if you have that background.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Three-Elements
    David G
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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    'Being proposed'?
    Sorry, my phone is not doing so well correcting my typing. Yes, that was the question.

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Well, there's plenty of those on this thread, but the funniest thing is that the OP doesn't ask OR assert that Capitalism is faulty, just why is Capitalism assumed to be the perfect husband to Liberal Democracy!

    As a husband to Liberal Democracy, Capitalism is demonstrably abusive, and seems to constantly scheme up ways to kill her once and for all.

    Let me tell you, folks, if Capitalism is the best we can do, we're doomed to have the vast majority of humans living in grinding poverty for eternity.

    Also, y'all can leave your standard defense of 'well-regulated Capitalism' at home, because I ain't buyin'.

    It sounds almost exactly like 'separate but equal'.

    Capitalism is built on greed, which is why it 'needs to be regulated' in the first place.

    If we insist on an economy based on greed, we will reap poverty, injustice and disease.
    Consider post #7. Capitalism needs to be regulated to remove its excesses.
    However this discusses an alternative: https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/op...italism/18/09/

    It would seem to propose a move away from profit for profit's sake and screw the humans in the system, to a model that creates enough wealth to sustain the business in the long term. Moderation being the key.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Rational?
    Capitalists be merchants, dude.
    There is only one train of thought for them and whether it is war or a pandemic they want a profit.

    And Communism as an ideal always seems to be quickly dominated by a despot. Of course that can happen in Capitalism as well, witness republicans and trump et al.

    "Socialism" as initiated by Franklin Rosevelt during the depression seemed pretty good.
    Follow this train of thought. Trump will not open up enrollment in the ACA. Insurance companies lose money during a pandemic. He's not helping cities get needed ventilators; when one dies, he no longer costs his insurance company money.

    That may sound cold, but Trump is more concerned with the stock market than our health.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    White 2011, pp. 455-456 : "For those who prefer totals broken down by country, here are reasonable estimates for the number of people who died under Communist regimes from execution, labor camps, famine, ethnic cleansing, and desperate flight in leaky boats:
    • China: 40,000,000
    • Soviet Union: 20,000,000
    • North Korea: 3,000,000
    • Ethiopia: 2,000,000
    • Cambodia: 1,700,000
    • Vietnam: 365,000 (after 1975)
    • Yugoslavia: 175,000
    • East Germany: 100,000
    • Romania: 100,000
    • North Vietnam: 50,000 (internally, 1954-75)
    • Cuba: 50,000
    • Mongolia: 35,000
    • Poland: 30,000
    • Bulgaria: 20,000
    • Czechoslovakia: 11,000
    • Albania: 5,000
    • Hungary: 5,000
    • Rough Total: 70 million

    (This rough total doesn't include the 20 million killed in the civil wars that brought Communists into power, or the 11 million who died in the proxy wars of the Cold War. Both sides probably share the blame for these to a certain extent. These two categories overlap somewhat, so once the duplicates are weeded out, it seems that some 26 million people died in Communist-inspired wars.)"
    Is there a point here?
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    The following thread was the genesis of the OP's inquiry. Might help discussion if you have that background.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Three-Elements
    That OP forget consumers.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    That OP forget consumers.
    Every system has consumers. They are the one constant factor.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    The problem (which should be obvious) is that "capitalism" is not just one thing, but covers an enormous range. This is not just a problem of terminology, it's a problem of thinking, of trying to stuff complex things into simple categories. "Capitalist" could plausibly mean England in 1830, England in 1965, Sweden in 1965, Chile in 1978, Chile today, the US in 1875, the US in 1935, the US today, Germany in 1939, Germany in 1999 - and with a little thought, one could probably come up with even more diverse examples.

    "Socialism" likewise. The word has been used to refer to some of the most horrible governments ever dreamed up by human beings (like it or not, MN Dave's list is quite accurate) and some of the more benevolent. Propagandists on the right have for a century tried to convince people that anything less than unfettered capitalism will eventually result in old-time Stalinist mass starvation, collective farms, Lysenko's biology, and prison camps. It's complete nonsense, of course, but the communist horrors were all too real. But democratic socialist countries with capitalist elements have been very pleasant places indeed. (Sweden 1970, Norway 2020)

    A certain amount of free enterprise is a very good thing. A certain amount of collective action for the common good is a very good thing. Government by the people, for the people, is by far the best we've manged to come up with. To indulge in a cliche, the devil's in the details.

    Oznabrag, if you want to have a rational discussion, you'd better define your terms.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 04-03-2020 at 09:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Well, there are a growing number of homeless people. I guess they've been stripped of their rights.
    Nope. If I drop a coin into a beggar's cup, it's his property. He has a right to own it, not a right to be given it.

    What you can do with property after you get it is what the right is about. How you got it is another story.
    Five, 10 years from now — different party. You’re going to have a worker’s party. -- Donald Trump, May 17, 2016

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Nope. If I drop a coin into a beggar's cup, it's his property. He has a right to own it, not a right to be given it.

    What you can do with property after you get it is what the right is about. How you got it is another story.
    Do you not think that people have a right to life? That they should not be allowed to die of cold through the lack of a roof?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    A certain amount of free enterprise is a very good thing.
    Impossible without the right of property, and the state to protect it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Oznabrag, if you want to have a rational discussion, you'd better define your terms.
    And add more terms. To make it a matter of capitalism and socialism, pick one, is a false dichotomy. So one sets about inventing in-betweener labels, and learns that it's not worth the effort. It's an empty argument over taxonomy, to little purpose.

    Given that the right of property will continue to be recognized, you can reach into the socialist grab bag and pull out all kinds of stuff, and combine it in all kinds of ways. Is it important that each combination have its own name?

    People's Front of Judea vs. Judean People's Front, give me a break. We have things to do.
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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Originally Posted by oznabrag
    'Being proposed'?
    Sorry, my phone is not doing so well correcting my typing. Yes, that was the question.
    First, thanks for asking.

    https://www.austinchronicle.com/colu...lution-part-3/

    Second, please don't be as lazy and jaded as David and just skim the title and then dismiss the whole thing.

    It's not a communist manifesto or a worker's revolution bent on stealing everything and instantly devolving into a chaotic bloodbath.

    Remember that our Constitution took the cooperative efforts of hundreds, and it took years to bring to the table.

    What Ventura is laying down is broad concepts in trying to understand commerce.

    Also, the question in the OP is an evolution of the fact that there are a WHOLE LOT of people who believe that Liberal Democracy and Capitalism are the exact same thing.

    They believe that Capitalism is enshrined in our Constitution, when the very word would need another 80-odd years to emerge into the language.

    These people are all around you.

    They're everywhere.
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    Default Re: Why Do Otherwise Rational People

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Every system has consumers. They are the one constant factor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    The problem (which should be obvious) is that "capitalism" is not just one thing, but covers an enormous range. This is not just a problem of terminology, it's a problem of thinking, of trying to stuff complex things into simple categories. "Capitalist" could plausibly mean England in 1830, England in 1965, Sweden in 1965, Chile in 1978, Chile today, the US in 1875, the US in 1935, the US today, Germany in 1939, Germany in 1999 - and with a little thought, one could probably come up with even more diverse examples.

    "Socialism" likewise. The word has been used to refer to some of the most horrible governments ever dreamed up by human beings (like it or not, MN Dave's list is quite accurate) and some of the more benevolent. Propagandists on the right have for a century tried to convince people that anything less than unfettered capitalism will eventually result in old-time Stalinist mass starvation, collective farms, Lysenko's biology, and prison camps. It's complete nonsense, of course, but the communist horrors were all too real. But democratic socialist countries with capitalist elements have been very pleasant places indeed. (Sweden 1970, Norway 2020)

    A certain amount of free enterprise is a very good thing. A certain amount of collective action for the common good is a very good thing. Government by the people, for the people, is by far the best we've manged to come up with. To indulge in a cliche, the devil's in the details.

    Oznabrag, if you want to have a rational discussion, you'd better define your terms.
    OK.

    Capitalism is an Economic System.

    Liberal Democracy is a Political System.

    The question is: Why are there so many people who believe that Capitalism is the only Economic System that is compatible with Liberal Democracy?

    I didn't ask anything about Communism, Socialism, Stalinist mass-starvation or anything like that, though I do appreciate your broad understanding and copious knowledge of history and geopolitics.
    Rattling the teacups.

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