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Thread: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

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    Default History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    The author's description is accurate. But I do believe there's a path out. The same prescription I've been talking about for years. Elect democrats, or the remaining few sane Republicans. Enact policies that steer away from the Laissez-faire (and away from the resulting concentration of wealth and power at the top)... and toward the Social Democracy.

    The Republican problem no one knows how to solve



    https://theweek.com/articles/929197/...nows-how-solve
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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    education. This country has spent the last 40 years dumbing down the populace. Now if you have any sort of education you are an "elitist" who can be forcibly ignored because you obviously know nothing about how the real world works. Once we can get this country back on the train to a proper education, we can get the country (and world) back on track to repairing the damage done to the only planet we have.
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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    education. This country has spent the last 40 years dumbing down the populace. Now if you have any sort of education you are an "elitist" who can be forcibly ignored because you obviously know nothing about how the real world works. Once we can get this country back on the train to a proper education, we can get the country (and world) back on track to repairing the damage done to the only planet we have.
    Yup... one important aspect.

    But one of many.

    One of our BilgeRats keeps arguing for a more productive definition of what's 'protected speech' in the political realm. That would be another aspect. There are dozens of ways that we've allowed the public policies of our Republic to become degraded & perverted... all in aid of tilting the playing field in favor of the already wealthy and powerful. And damn the social & economic consequences for the rest of the nation. They all need correction. Starting with the most egregious and obvious... snatching the low-hanging fruit along the way... and moving on the the most intransigent.
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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Yup... one important aspect.

    But one of many.

    One of our BilgeRats keeps arguing for a more productive definition of what's 'protected speech' in the political realm. That would be another aspect. There are dozens of ways that we've allowed the public policies of our Republic to become degraded & perverted... all in aid of tilting the playing field in favor of the already wealthy and powerful. And damn the social & economic consequences for the rest of the nation. They all need correction. Starting with the most egregious and obvious... snatching the low-hanging fruit along the way... and moving on the the most intransigent.
    A difficult, possibly unsurmountable problem The government cannot enact a law, the courts, being part of government cannot interpret any law to limit "Free Speech" of any sort. Your 2 centuries old preserved in aspic Constitution has got you screwed coming and going.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    A difficult, possibly unsurmountable problem The government cannot enact a law, the courts, being part of government cannot interpret any law to limit "Free Speech" of any sort. Your 2 centuries old preserved in aspic Constitution has got you screwed coming and going.
    No... that's just not accurate.

    The courts have already established that there are reasonable & justifiable limits to the First Amendment. The issue that needs to be addressed is refining the definition of 'reasonable & justifiable'. You've heard some of what I'd suggest.
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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Yup... one important aspect.

    But one of many.

    One of our BilgeRats keeps arguing for a more productive definition of what's 'protected speech' in the political realm. That would be another aspect. There are dozens of ways that we've allowed the public policies of our Republic to become degraded & perverted... all in aid of tilting the playing field in favor of the already wealthy and powerful. And damn the social & economic consequences for the rest of the nation. They all need correction. Starting with the most egregious and obvious... snatching the low-hanging fruit along the way... and moving on the the most intransigent.
    One way would be to get the FCC to draft up a new version of the Fairness Doctrine and make all news stations adhere to it. For some it will not be that hard, for others it will be nearly insurmountable
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    No... that's just not accurate.

    The courts have already established that there are reasonable & justifiable limits to the First Amendment. The issue that needs to be addressed is refining the definition of 'reasonable & justifiable'. You've heard some of what I'd suggest.
    Two issues. The Client Patron relationship that controls SCOTUS, and turkeys voting for Thanksgiving.

    It won't happen.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    The GOP is practicing a strategy that has been under development and served them disturbingly well for decades. At every turn, they redouble their efforts. They will not reverse their course easily, even if they lose in the ballot box.

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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland
    education. This country has spent the last 40 years dumbing down the populace. Now if you have any sort of education you are an "elitist" who can be forcibly ignored because you obviously know nothing about how the real world works. Once we can get this country back on the train to a proper education, we can get the country (and world) back on track to repairing the damage done to the only planet we have.
    I don't think better education alone is the solution. Children are indoctrinated in particular religious, political, and social views at the feet of their parents. A teacher attempting to overcome the narrow viewpoints engendered at home is often sucking wind uphill. This is why bigotry persists. Republican politicians know this and exploit this at every opportunity.
    Last edited by Tom Montgomery; 08-05-2020 at 03:31 PM.
    "We have come to live in a society based on insults, on lies and on things that just aren't true. It creates an environment where deranged people feel empowered." -- Colin Powell, 10/30/18

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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Many of the great reforms and projects of the democracies have been accomplished by conservatives. The US highway system and Little Rock were both Eisenhower administration examples.

    So it's not conservative politicians per se.

    The problem with the writer is he acts as if the voters are a stand alone force that is not affected by anything.

    In fact they are a bunch of people who are affected by everything.

    I'd look at breaking up the media giants, especially Fox, but also Facebook, Google and we should probably go after Disney too.

    I think the focus on education from another post on this thread is a good idea.

    Investigating tax cheats and other white collar criminals and jailing them would also be good. Trump is president in part because investigating him, convicting him and jailing him would have been expensive in 2004 or 2010. But we should have done it, we are going to pay a lot more now. Alex Jones, other people like him and Trump are all crooks who the Democrats left alone when Democrats were president.

    For the forces of good to win they have to get off their ass and start fighting.
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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    Many of the great reforms and projects of the democracies have been accomplished by conservatives. The US highway system and Little Rock were both Eisenhower administration examples.

    So it's not conservative politicians per se.

    The problem with the writer is he acts as if the voters are a stand alone force that is not affected by anything.

    In fact they are a bunch of people who are affected by everything.

    I'd look at breaking up the media giants, especially Fox, but also Facebook, Google and we should probably go after Disney too.

    I think the focus on education from another post on this thread is a good idea.

    Investigating tax cheats and other white collar criminals and jailing them would also be good. Trump is president in part because investigating him, convicting him and jailing him would have been expensive in 2004 or 2010. But we should have done it, we are going to pay a lot more now. Alex Jones, other people like him and Trump are all crooks who the Democrats left alone when Democrats were president.

    For the forces of good to win they have to get off their ass and start fighting.
    Many, you say?

    Eisenhower wasn't really much of a conservative. Not even in the ballpark by today's twisted standards... not not even back then.

    But refresh my memory. Have there been others?
    David G
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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    education. This country has spent the last 40 years dumbing down the populace. Now if you have any sort of education you are an "elitist" who can be forcibly ignored because you obviously know nothing about how the real world works. Once we can get this country back on the train to a proper education, we can get the country (and world) back on track to repairing the damage done to the only planet we have.
    How very Pol Pot'ish that is.

    On the GOP. Gone, finished, taken over by donald in 2016, any old style republicans are either voting from habit, or ideology, or are disenfranchised.

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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    @David G.

    Nixon, the clean air act in 1970

    Reagan's social security reform

    In other countries you have examples like Bismark introducing social security.

    It's often true that a strong conservative can get legislation through that a more left leaning government cannot.

    I don't think Trumps party is in any way conservative, or capable of doing much of anything. But I don't see the article in the OP providing much of any insight or solutions.
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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    It's simple, the FCC defines news, by law, as needing to present only the facts, nothing more. When opinion is being presented, there must be a tag that is always visible that says "this is opinion, not fact". As for the politicians, they should already be bound to always be faithful to the truth. It's sad but I think we need to codify it in law with very stiff penalties. Then, any politician or public servant should be subject to double the penalty for any infractions that break the public trust. End it with elections being publicly funded and media outlets having to give free and equal time to every candidate and needs to produce their ads for free, which must be governed by the same definition as news.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Attention all personnel.

    As of this writing, Republicans are criminals.

    That is all.

    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    I don't think better education alone is the solution. Children are indoctrinated in particular religious, political, and social views at the feet of their parents. A teacher attempting to overcome the narrow viewpoints engendered at home is often sucking wind uphill. This is why bigotry persists. Republican politicians know this and exploit this at every opportunity.
    A Large percentage of people my age did NOT follow their parent's religious paths.

    There are areas that people allow themselves to be led down false roads. Unions come to mind. "Right to work" is a wonderful slogan, and it catches on. Unions gave us overtime pay and other benefits. People who work for the lowest wages in the country vote against having unions, and think that serves them.

    We have accepted, sorry for redundancy, politicians lying as free speech.

    No wonder we're in trouble.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    No... that's just not accurate.

    The courts have already established that there are reasonable & justifiable limits to the First Amendment. The issue that needs to be addressed is refining the definition of 'reasonable & justifiable'. You've heard some of what I'd suggest.
    I think it's been well established that fraud, libel, slander, inciting violence are not free speech, but crimes.

    If a car dealer is caught turning back an odometer to get a better price for a car, that car dealer is in legal trouble.

    If a politician states falsehoods as fact, so he gets more votes, it seems to me no different than the car dealer.

    Can someone explain the difference?
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    Many of the great reforms and projects of the democracies have been accomplished by conservatives. The US highway system and Little Rock were both Eisenhower administration examples.

    So it's not conservative politicians per se.

    The problem with the writer is he acts as if the voters are a stand alone force that is not affected by anything.

    In fact they are a bunch of people who are affected by everything.

    I'd look at breaking up the media giants, especially Fox, but also Facebook, Google and we should probably go after Disney too.

    I think the focus on education from another post on this thread is a good idea.

    Investigating tax cheats and other white collar criminals and jailing them would also be good. Trump is president in part because investigating him, convicting him and jailing him would have been expensive in 2004 or 2010. But we should have done it, we are going to pay a lot more now. Alex Jones, other people like him and Trump are all crooks who the Democrats left alone when Democrats were president.

    For the forces of good to win they have to get off their ass and start fighting.
    I've asked Bezos to buy FOX and make it WAPO tv.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Many, you say?

    Eisenhower wasn't really much of a conservative. Not even in the ballpark by today's twisted standards... not not even back then.

    But refresh my memory. Have there been others?
    IKE had tax bracket taxed at 92%. We paid off our war debt, funded the GI bill, and built the interstates. Wealthy were doing quite well.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    It's simple, the FCC defines news, by law, as needing to present only the facts, nothing more. When opinion is being presented, there must be a tag that is always visible that says "this is opinion, not fact". As for the politicians, they should already be bound to always be faithful to the truth. It's sad but I think we need to codify it in law with very stiff penalties. Then, any politician or public servant should be subject to double the penalty for any infractions that break the public trust. End it with elections being publicly funded and media outlets having to give free and equal time to every candidate and needs to produce their ads for free, which must be governed by the same definition as news.
    Make it part of the oath they get sworn in with.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    @David G.

    Nixon, the clean air act in 1970

    Reagan's social security reform

    In other countries you have examples like Bismark introducing social security.

    It's often true that a strong conservative can get legislation through that a more left leaning government cannot.

    I don't think Trumps party is in any way conservative, or capable of doing much of anything. But I don't see the article in the OP providing much of any insight or solutions.
    Thanks. Personally, I'd disallow Reagan & SS. Not a plus in my book. But Nixon? Yes. And I'll add one back in, now that you reminded me. Also Nixon - and doing just what you describe... a conservative pulling off something a liberal would have struggles with... the rapprochement with China.

    But you said 'many'. I'm gonna say that's an over-reach. I'll go with 'some'.
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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I think it's been well established that fraud, libel, slander, inciting violence are not free speech, but crimes.

    If a car dealer is caught turning back an odometer to get a better price for a car, that car dealer is in legal trouble.

    If a politician states falsehoods as fact, so he gets more votes, it seems to me no different than the car dealer.

    Can someone explain the difference?
    The difference is that the courts have arbitrarily staked a difference between personal/commercial speech on one hand... and political speech on the other. I agree - it's a false and perverse ruling. What I'm talking about is changing it.
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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    IKE had tax bracket taxed at 92%. We paid off our war debt, funded the GI bill, and built the interstates. Wealthy were doing quite well.
    Yes, he did. While Ike was a Republican... the discussion is about 'conservatives'. I'm not sure Ike qualifies in that regard. Remember... there used to be both liberal and moderate R's (like Ike). See my #11.
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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    I was just having a giggle, imagining how Trump might pronounce intransigent.
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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    So back to the article in the OP.

    Q. Do you agree with the author that the primary problem with today's R party is the R voter?

    I don't

    Q. Do you agree that the answer is to 'burn the party to the ground', instead of simple reforms?

    Maybe, but I don't have strong feelings about it. I suspect if it needs to happen, it'll happen organically.

    You've heard my answer by now. Some of you may have even paid enough attention to remember what it is. And some of you might understand how & why such a path would work. I think the author is trying to 'push the river'. He's right about a lot, and about the direction, just not about how to get there, methinks.
    David G
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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    So back to the article in the OP.

    Q. Do you agree with the author that the primary problem with today's R party is the R voter?
    He makes a good case for it - at least, he echos my thoughts (so if he echo's me then its a good case ---- right?)

    In the midst of a pandemic that has killed 160,000 in under six months and that the president shows no sign of understanding how to combat, his approval rating among Republicans remains at 91 percent. Thanks to this unshakable support, his overall approval has barely dipped below 40 percent through the nightmare of recent months and is currently creeping back up toward his norm of the past year (around 42 percent).
    — most of these voters remain undaunted in their conviction that politics is primarily about the venting of grievances and the trolling of opponents. The dumber and angrier and more shameless, the better.



    Which leads back to the education post above.


    To note; the Conservatives here in Oz have been using COVID to attack Universities here in Oz, and particularly the Humanities. They HATE people who can think critically.
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    Default Re: History: The case of the intransigent Republicans

    2016 was a savage indictment of the American educational system for the preceding 50 years. My only hope, nay, the country's only hope is that Republicans go the way of their intellectual ancestors, the Know-Nothings of the 1850s.
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