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Thread: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

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    Default The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Interesting article (long) on the issue of affordable housing that is being felt in popular cities all over --

    Build Build Build Build Build Build Build Build Build Build Build Build Build Build

    When Californiaís housing crisis slammed into a wealthy suburb, one public servant became a convert to a radically simple doctrine.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/b...sultPosition=2



    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    I grew up not far from Columbia, MD. I don't really like the place. It seems to me a lot of the houses are built cheaply. However, it was mandated that there must be a mixture of home types and prices so that all segments of society could live there. It seemed to work. Then again, plenty of people decided not to live there, so who knows?

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    As some here know, I'm on a regional planning commission here in VT. It covers the most populous county in the state & ranges from the City of Burlington (the state's largest) to my little community of 26 (or so). It's urban, suburban, and rural - 19 cities & towns.

    We have a housing crisis - particularly affordable housing - and if there's one constant I've seen is that the ability to develop new housing is inversely proportional to the wealth of the town's citizens. A focus has been on infill development (which only makes sense) & one town even passed a zoning ordinance prohibiting it.

    NIMBYism is alive & well everywhere.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    As some here know, I'm on a regional planning commission here in VT. It covers the most populous county in the state & ranges from the City of Burlington (the state's largest) to my little community of 26 (or so). It's urban, suburban, and rural - 19 cities & towns.

    We have a housing crisis - particularly affordable housing - and if there's one constant I've seen is that the ability to develop new housing is inversely proportional to the wealth of the town's citizens. A focus has been on infill development (which only makes sense) & one town even passed a zoning ordinance prohibiting it.

    NIMBYism is alive & well everywhere.
    Did you read the article? I'm particularly interested in your perspective.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    If a government entity builds some low income/subsidized housing and it reduces property values of existing homes, should that government compensate the existing homeowners?
    When we lived in Brooklyn, there were a couple of buildings called Mitchell-Lama housing. As I understood it, the City built the apartments and rented them, at below market rates, to poor people. The renters, if they stayed 20 years, got title to the apartments. It seemed to work, and the apartments appreciated nicely, creating wealth

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Did you read the article? I'm particularly interested in your perspective.
    OK - IMO, the "crisis" is far, far larger than just housing. There was a time in the US when one person could support a family. Maybe not in splendor, but provide a house, clothes, food, etc. for a spouse & several kids. Those days are gone - except for the 1% (OK 5% - whatever). I don't have the economics background you do - but I do know what I see & that is that households with both parents working are the norm & why it's is so difficult for a single parent to get by.

    The other problem is (& the article spends a lot of time on it) local control. Personal freedom is enshrined in the US & that extends upwards: towns deciding for their citizens is better than the state, state is better than the feds, and worst of all would be some sort of globalist regime. OH, I got carried away a bit at the end there - but whatever one's politics, most US folks do believe "more local is better". And - it often is - look at the issues the Soviets had with central planning for agriculture as an example. Obviously that's an extreme example - but taking away local control is never an easy task here - nor (IMO) should it be.

    I'd rather see responsible local control than control from above - but the problem is "responsible". Here in VT, we're lucky that most are. As I mentioned, there are exceptions, but there will always be those.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    OK - IMO, the "crisis" is far, far larger than just housing. There was a time in the US when one person could support a family. Maybe not in splendor, but provide a house, clothes, food, etc. for a spouse & several kids. Those days are gone - except for the 1% (OK 5% - whatever). I don't have the economics background you do - but I do know what I see & that is that households with both parents working are the norm & why it's is so difficult for a single parent to get by.

    The other problem is (& the article spends a lot of time on it) local control. Personal freedom is enshrined in the US & that extends upwards: towns deciding for their citizens is better than the state, state is better than the feds, and worst of all would be some sort of globalist regime. OH, I got carried away a bit at the end there - but whatever one's politics, most US folks do believe "more local is better". And - it often is - look at the issues the Soviets had with central planning for agriculture as an example. Obviously that's an extreme example - but taking away local control is never an easy task here - nor (IMO) should it be.

    I'd rather see responsible local control than control from above - but the problem is "responsible". Here in VT, we're lucky that most are. As I mentioned, there are exceptions, but there will always be those.
    And did you have any thoughts about Ms. Trauss' assertion that the present decision-making model excludes some stakeholders? Her response to that notion strikes me as a bit of a blunt hammer. Silly in the long run, though it makes some sense as a form of protest/street-theater.

    I'm no policy wonk... but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of designing a process that would give some weight to the interests of those missing stakeholders. I agree with her stand that it would - at least if done well - be beneficial to the public interest.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    And did you have any thoughts about Ms. Trauss' assertion that the present decision-making model excludes some stakeholders? Her response to that notion strikes me as a bit of a blunt hammer. Silly in the long run, though it makes some sense as a form of protest/street-theater.

    I'm no policy wonk... but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of designing a process that would give some weight to the interests of those missing stakeholders. I agree with her stand that it would - at least if done well - be beneficial to the public interest.
    The future residents? If so, that's a given - as they don't exist at the time of the hearings. However, advocacy groups can make up a lot of the slack - as long as they do their homework & don't get holier-than-thou.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    OK - IMO, the "crisis" is far, far larger than just housing. There was a time in the US when one person could support a family. Maybe not in splendor, but provide a house, clothes, food, etc. for a spouse & several kids. Those days are gone - except for the 1% (OK 5% - whatever). I don't have the economics background you do - but I do know what I see & that is that households with both parents working are the norm & why it's is so difficult for a single parent to get by.

    The other problem is (& the article spends a lot of time on it) local control. Personal freedom is enshrined in the US & that extends upwards: towns deciding for their citizens is better than the state, state is better than the feds, and worst of all would be some sort of globalist regime. OH, I got carried away a bit at the end there - but whatever one's politics, most US folks do believe "more local is better". And - it often is - look at the issues the Soviets had with central planning for agriculture as an example. Obviously that's an extreme example - but taking away local control is never an easy task here - nor (IMO) should it be.

    I'd rather see responsible local control than control from above - but the problem is "responsible". Here in VT, we're lucky that most are. As I mentioned, there are exceptions, but there will always be those.


    YES, i'm in the 1%! who knew?

    i remember way back when the 1st kid was coming. the wife had to go on full bed rest the last month so no more working and no more 2nd paycheck. we wondered how we were going to get by. well, we've made it 15 years without that paycheck and haven't really missed it to be honest. soon enough though she'll go back to work while we put the kids through college, but that's 4 years away.

    i've always laughed about that paycheck. where did all of that money get spent if we didn't even need it?

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Build build build build build build build build build build
    Drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill

    . . . and be damned.

    America has a housing crisis. The homeownership rate for young adults is at a multidecade low, and about a quarter of renters send more than half their income to the landlord. Homelessness is resurgent, eviction displaces a million households a year, and about four million people spend at least three hours driving to and from work.

    One need only look out an airplane window to see that this has nothing to do with a lack of space.
    Deluded. Get cute with your definitions, they change nothing. The population grows, the earth doesn't.

    Nearly all of the biggest challenges in America are, at some level, a housing problem.
    A population problem.

    What this suggests is that the real solution will have to be sociological. People have to realize that homelessness is connected to housing prices. They have to accept itís hypocritical to say that you donít like density but are worried about climate change. They have to internalize the lesson that if they want their children to have a stable financial future, they have to make space. They are going to have to change.
    F you. You change. You "make space". Space cannot be made of course but it sounds so much more liberal than saying "we're taking your space". Shove it you cowardly sniveling POS.

    Fire up your technology and make some underground worker warrens. Let's see how keen people are to pump out the babes when they know they're going to spend their lives with them in their cube five stories underground, and by the way, "make space" for some more. If they don't like it, tell them they are going to have to change. Tell them their situation has boosted home ownership the "smart" way. Tell them it's sociological. Pack the can with sardines, toss me a virtue signal, and F off.
    Trust me to defend the Constitution just as soon as I'm sure you're going to vote for me again.

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    not ^this^ again....

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Build build build build build build build build build build
    Drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill

    . . . and be damned.



    Deluded. Get cute with your definitions, they change nothing. The population grows, the earth doesn't.



    A population problem.



    F you. You change. You "make space". Space cannot be made of course but it sounds so much more liberal than saying "we're taking your space". Shove it you cowardly sniveling POS.

    Fire up your technology and make some underground worker warrens. Let's see how keen people are to pump out the babes when they know they're going to spend their lives with them in their cube five stories underground, and by the way, "make space" for some more. If they don't like it, tell them they are going to have to change. Tell them their situation has boosted home ownership the "smart" way. Tell them it's sociological. Pack the can with sardines, toss me a virtue signal, and F off.
    A lively rant, indeed.

    But what are you really saying... without all the hyperbole and vitriol?
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    IIRC, US reproductive activity is below replacement; we are still growing because of immigration

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    IIRC, US reproductive activity is below replacement; we are still growing because of immigration
    Replacement of what bloated number? Let's use 1950 as a target. 150 million. Less than half of current.
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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    IIRC, US reproductive activity is below replacement; we are still growing because of immigration
    if trumps anti immigrant policy’s hold we’ll end up Japan. With more crime and crappy trains.

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    OK - IMO, the "crisis" is far, far larger than just housing. There was a time in the US when one person could support a family. Maybe not in splendor, but provide a house, clothes, food, etc. for a spouse & several kids. Those days are gone - except for the 1% (OK 5% - whatever). I don't have the economics background you do - but I do know what I see & that is that households with both parents working are the norm & why it's is so difficult for a single parent to get by.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    YES, i'm in the 1%! who knew?

    i remember way back when the 1st kid was coming. the wife had to go on full bed rest the last month so no more working and no more 2nd paycheck. we wondered how we were going to get by. well, we've made it 15 years without that paycheck and haven't really missed it to be honest. soon enough though she'll go back to work while we put the kids through college, but that's 4 years away.

    i've always laughed about that paycheck. where did all of that money get spent if we didn't even need it?
    I know too many people whose life experience reflects Garret's views. I know many people whose life experience reflects AlanMc's views.

    It is a shame that most people don't learn home economics.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Build build build build build build build build build build
    Drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill drill

    . . . and be damned.



    Deluded. Get cute with your definitions, they change nothing. The population grows, the earth doesn't.



    A population problem.



    F you. You change. You "make space". Space cannot be made of course but it sounds so much more liberal than saying "we're taking your space". Shove it you cowardly sniveling POS.

    Fire up your technology and make some underground worker warrens. Let's see how keen people are to pump out the babes when they know they're going to spend their lives with them in their cube five stories underground, and by the way, "make space" for some more. If they don't like it, tell them they are going to have to change. Tell them their situation has boosted home ownership the "smart" way. Tell them it's sociological. Pack the can with sardines, toss me a virtue signal, and F off.
    Have a look at where the highest birthrate is, its among those in the poorest housing areas. And no, you cant blame them, its a well known phenomena that a population under stress will reproduce at a higher rate than a population that is comfortable.
    We're living in a very rapidly changing society, white and blue collar jobs are being decimated by computerisation and automation, as a result of that the unskilled workers are facing competition for their traditional jobs, where those jobs still exist, they're disappearing as well and for much the same reason. The middle class, the skilled and qualified workers that used to form the financial and productive backbone of the country is under huge pressure, and is diminishing in size.
    At the same time, the "house" that the current generation cant afford is what, 1800/2000 sq ft, internal access double garage, two bathrooms, separate dining room, aircon and central heating built in, double glazing and so on. Nice! But I grew up in a 950 sq ft house, one bathroom, with a carport and a tin garden shed, three kids, and it worked ok. The current "normal" house costs about twice what that did, so thats another part of the picture.
    Two cars per family, wide screen TV, cable subscription and on and on. There are a lot of costs of living that are considered essential now that were luxuries not long ago, and yet incomes have been stagnant in real terms for quite some time, its much the same throughout the western world, the results are less traumatic in the socialist nations, but its still there, they're just approaching the problem differently.
    The next few decades are going to be very interesting.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    if trumps anti immigrant policy’s hold we’ll end up Japan. With more crime and crappy trains.
    Japan is gradually becoming less and less xenophobic, I know two "europeans" who live there very happily, and say that they're seeing more and more non Japanese around.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    John makes some good points & one in particular that I have seen in action around here. 8 or so miles from me is a group of houses (not quite a "development" - but several suburban streets) that were built in the late 40's - early 50's. Families with as many as 8 kids lived in them & all seemed to grow up quite normally. In today's marketplace, they are considered "starter homes" - good for a couple & one or 2 kids while they are still young - then it's time to move to a bigger home.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Have a look at where the highest birthrate is, its among those in the poorest housing areas. And no, you cant blame them, its a well known phenomena that a population under stress will reproduce at a higher rate than a population that is comfortable.
    We're living in a very rapidly changing society, white and blue collar jobs are being decimated by computerisation and automation, as a result of that the unskilled workers are facing competition for their traditional jobs, where those jobs still exist, they're disappearing as well and for much the same reason. The middle class, the skilled and qualified workers that used to form the financial and productive backbone of the country is under huge pressure, and is diminishing in size.
    At the same time, the "house" that the current generation cant afford is what, 1800/2000 sq ft, internal access double garage, two bathrooms, separate dining room, aircon and central heating built in, double glazing and so on. Nice! But I grew up in a 950 sq ft house, one bathroom, with a carport and a tin garden shed, three kids, and it worked ok. The current "normal" house costs about twice what that did, so thats another part of the picture.
    Two cars per family, wide screen TV, cable subscription and on and on. There are a lot of costs of living that are considered essential now that were luxuries not long ago, and yet incomes have been stagnant in real terms for quite some time, its much the same throughout the western world, the results are less traumatic in the socialist nations, but its still there, they're just approaching the problem differently.
    The next few decades are going to be very interesting.

    John Welsford
    Indeed. Part of the discussions our family is having about a 'family compound' is the recognition that it's silly for each part of our family to have its own separate home, yard, shop, tools, piano, pair of automobiles, etc. We're thinking along the lines of my sweetie & I in the main house (optimized for aging in place), which will hold the music room, 1.5 - 2 bathrooms, main kitchen, and the laundry facilities. The younger son (currently unmarried) in maybe an expandable mother-in-law apt or maybe a small (but expandable) separate cabin/yurt. The older son+wife+2 kids starting out in a yurt or two on a deck with covered walkway to the main house. Both having access to the main house for bathrooms, laundry, baby grand piano, etc. And access to the Harbor Woodworks shop which will be on the property. Don't know how our wish list will actually pan out yet, but that's how the thinking is shaping up.

    https://www.yurts.com/

    In the aggregate, we believe we can live better, for less money, with a smaller environmental cost... with this sort of model. Some folks are doing it with other unrelated families in a model called 'co-housing'. Worth checking out if such a thing holds any appeal. https://www.cohousing.org/
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    I think that compound idea is a great one!

    Do think about the future though - IOW how will it work 10 years from now, 20, 50, etc.

    Slightly different, but similar concept: Friends are 1/2 owners of an island off Deer Isle ME (bought back in the early 60's for about .01% of what it's now worth). They had a single camp on their half & spent summers there for many years. Nowadays most of the island has been put in the local land trust, but the family retained (IIRC) a couple of acres in a family trust where new building would be allowed. It was carefully designed to allow for room for the kids & their families to add building(s) - but only under carefully controlled & agreed-upon constraints. This was put together over several years of planning - including professionals, attorneys, etc. Not an easy task, but by planning it all out carefully, they have both a workable & affordable way to keep it in the family.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Population Density:

    New Zealand: 18 per square kilometer

    California: 97 per square kilometer

    - - California is "low" because so much area is mountains and desert.

    • Los Angeles County: 905 per square kilometer
    • City of Los Angeles: 2,910 per square kilometer
    • Imperial County, California (in the Mojave and Colorado deserts, borders on Mexico): 15 per square kilometer


    Japan: 334 per square kilometer
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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    . . . we’ll end up Japan.
    You say that like it was a bad thing. In what respect?

    Possibly you're referring to the top heavy population picture, more old people than young. Temporary and self-correcting.
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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Have a look at where the highest birthrate is, its among those in the poorest housing areas. And no, you cant blame them, its a well known phenomena that a population under stress will reproduce at a higher rate than a population that is comfortable.
    Taking that to be true, then the birth rate world wide but especially in the most industrialized countries should be climbing because of stress, not just in the lower class but the middle class. As you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    We're living in a very rapidly changing society, white and blue collar jobs are being decimated by computerisation and automation, as a result of that the unskilled workers are facing competition for their traditional jobs, where those jobs still exist, they're disappearing as well and for much the same reason. The middle class, the skilled and qualified workers that used to form the financial and productive backbone of the country is under huge pressure, and is diminishing in size.
    It's irrational to expect that as the middle class shrinks, the lower class will be increasingly able to breed its way into it. An irrational choice is blameworthy, in proportion to the consequences. True, for many poor people it's not a rational choice, it's a desperation move -- it's your only shot at improving your circumstances -- or simple resignation to God's will, or fate, what have you.

    In any case, in the industrial world the birth rate is not climbing because of economic stress. It's not climbing at all. It's falling, which is said to be a problem, or proof that there is no problem, depending on whom one asks, in what context.
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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    In the compound --

    The population falls to where the compound is uneconomic, at which point, it becomes rented rooms, or
    The population increases to where another compound is needed. Who can afford that? Where will we put it? All the open space . . . is gone!

    Underground worker warrens are the answer. You can make a compound by combining four or five them (mustn't be greedy, keep justice in mind) and making up a suite, which can be reconfigured when circumstances change. Reconfigurable housing units for reconfigurable human units.
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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    My wife and I started in a 20 by 26 cabin.

    When the first bambino came she stopped working.

    She did not work again until the 3d one was in high school.

    I worked 3 jobs at times, went to Alaska, fished, claimed, cut firewood, hustled pool, all the time building the house up to a nice place

    Yeah, we drove old cars, I bought and sold cars.

    We watched the neighbors who both worked buy new cars, go on vacation while their kids were here ..

    Now people demand their first new house look just like the apt they are renting.

    Young guys are not going into the trades, not likely they are going to build their own house.

    My carpenter friends helped each other on concrete pours, setting rafters etc.

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    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    did you mean to post this to the patriarchy thread???

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    My wife and I started in a 20 by 26 cabin.

    When the first bambino came she stopped working.

    She did not work again until the 3d one was in high school.

    I worked 3 jobs at times, went to Alaska, fished, claimed, cut firewood, hustled pool, all the time building the house up to a nice place

    Yeah, we drove old cars, I bought and sold cars.

    We watched the neighbors who both worked buy new cars, go on vacation while their kids were here ..

    Now people demand their first new house look just like the apt they are renting.

    Young guys are not going into the trades, not likely they are going to build their own house.

    My carpenter friends helped each other on concrete pours, setting rafters etc.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Frankfort, MI
    Posts
    8,213

    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    did you mean to post this to the patriarchy thread???



    Jeff C

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Western Washington
    Posts
    3,241

    Default Re: The Housing Crisis: NIMBY vs. YIMBY

    Housing crisis? Seems to me if I only had a couple of bucks in my pocket and a strong back, I'd look for a place to live and work in Bumfuk, Idaho rather than San Francisco.

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