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Thread: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

  1. #596
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    May 2012
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    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Yes. Aren't most stability numbers arrived at by including hypothetical crew? I ask, because although MOCT's mini DH went over (I agree the rig looks too big), it had none. Isn't an average crew weight included when the hull stability is calculated for a boat this size?

  2. #597
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    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    No way. Can't believe it. I started reading this thread a week and a half ago, slowly, digesting it all. I bet myself on your behalf that you had the big one in the water already. You lost the bet, you owe me a week's worth of breaks/lunch half hour (to be paid in missed ping pong, I'm getting behind my co-workers skill wise, they got a week and a half on me). Not sure the currency for ping pong skill. Also, stayed up late several nights reading, only got 5 of my 9 hours of required sleep those nights. And on two occasions I blew off working on my own boat to read Little Idea's entire thread, (also your fault for linking to it here).(And by work on my own boat, I mean work on my MIL's greenhouse, almost done, One day project taking 4. When it's done, I can get back to my boat full time, according to my boss. I have actually sneaked out to the shop and made some progress, but only after my B1/2 was asleep of an evening). Don't know the currency for missed sleep or boat building time either (OK, boat restoring time, to be more accurate).

    I'm willing to negotiate: You get the big boat in the water, and we're even. Or maybe at that point I will owe you, for lighting several fires under my A$$. I used to work like you in my 20's and 30's, got a lot of sh%% done. Main thing is I'm putting my new rowing shell on hold and spending a weekend each with my kids building some sailing dinghies, they're 12 and 14 and still can't sail by themselves, don't tell CPS. Really, it's my only (major) parental shortcoming. Birthdays coming up, little do they know...
    Chris
    ____________________________
    Current:
    Tern, a William Atkins Pixie. Builder: Jeff Stobbe, 1997. Completed restoration 2016
    Sparkle, not a Herreshoff 12-1/2, same but stretched to 14-1/2. Builder: Jeff S, 2013.

    Previous: Ydun, Folkboat US 88, owned 1997-2000 ish, Berkeley, CA Sailed her one weekend, worked on her the next. Builder: Borresen, 1950 (Denmark)

    Spokane, WA.
    Row, sail and sleep on the beach around Lake Pend Oreille, usually near Garfield Bay, Idaho.

  3. #598
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Central Florida
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    361

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Yes. Aren't most stability numbers arrived at by including hypothetical crew? I ask, because although MOCT's mini DH went over (I agree the rig looks too big), it had none. Isn't an average crew weight included when the hull stability is calculated for a boat this size?
    I agree, my crew's stability is entirely hyperthetical.

    The third 10# weight is 270#s that don't (yet) exist in big DH. I plan to try to rebalance the front 20#s (mostly by moving them back) so that I can eliminate the third weight to keep the model true to the big one.
    i've ordered new 'giant' size RC servos and a water proof box and a secret plan for the buoyancy that I can only post after the patent papers come back (translation: I have (yet another) crazy idea (no relation) for cheap flotation that I'll post if it works)
    "what could go wrong?"

  4. #599
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    121

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    As someone who spent a lot of time building and breaking things to see what they could really stand up to in the real world I am happy to see that you are having fun with this. Once you have finished proofing your modifications with your scale model do you plan to reconfigure your model and remove the internal ballast and bolt on the appropriate external ballast to compare results? Might be interesting to see which version really "floats your boat."

  5. #600
    Join Date
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    N.E. Connecticut.
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    6,123

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Good on you MOCT! We should all enjoy this stuff as much 'simply messing about in boats'.

  6. #601
    Join Date
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    Little Egypt
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    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    I've posted enough pictures to know that it's no small chore, so, thanks for sharing your efforts with us. Looking forward to the launch of your 1:1 boat. I think your'e going to tump over, but then when I look at cruise ships I think they are going to tump over too, but they don't. Good luck.
    Conservative gun grabber

  7. #602
    Join Date
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    Fiddletown, on Vineyard Lane
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    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Well shoot. My motto is You only fail if you quit, so you haven't failed under my paradigm. I agree with the bulb keel suggestion on the big boy.
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  8. #603
    Join Date
    May 2015
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    Poole, South Coast, UK
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    200

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Hi Measures.

    Thats brilliant!

    Theres some bits here that might be worth considering...


    Looking at your launch pics...

    The wind seems to be coming off the dock from behind you to your left as you look at the water. I think that from the direction your flag is flying.

    The wind looks at least 10 mph, judging by how badly its chopping up on the far side of the basin - which I would guess at being only 50 metres or yards wide. No whitecaps in the distance suggests its under 15 mph.

    You set your boat to sail away from you. I guess your hull would run at about 3mph.

    "Minnie just tilted to 10 degrees and sailed off like a champ" Thats an awkward direction to sail in as the boat can trip over its own keel.

    Im guessing again that the gusts were 13mph, which when the hull speed is deducted, would leave 10mph of windspeed hitting the back of your boat.

    Your boat just proved capable of withstanding that.

    Pulling it to a sudden stop adds momentum to the 13 mph gust, along with whatever speed you add to pull the boat along backwards.

    Im guessing 3 mph backwards as this is fairly easy to pull.

    When you push a boat hull through water, it builds a wave in front of itself. Basically, it builds it on the leeward front side, then tries to climb over it which can help to stabilise the hull. This effect is strong enough that it is what you use get a boat to plane, and get hydrofoil hulls to completely climb out of the water.

    This wave disappears when the hull stops. Pulling it backwards would build one on the rear windward side and I would expect any of my sail boats would also tip over if I did that to them.

    So...With the hull stalled, 16 mph of wind is too much, which tipped it over.

    Im guessing that 10 to 12 is where your first reef needs to be.

    Your pull it back rope needs to connect to the bow, not the stern.

    It might be a good Idea to try more weight and a pile of plastic bottles next time.

    Your Minnie sails. Not sure how you can class that as a failure.

    Good on yer.

    Little Ideas dad.

  9. #604
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Central Florida
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    361

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Quote Originally Posted by csoxford View Post
    No way. Can't believe it. I started reading this thread a week and a half ago, slowly, digesting it all. I bet myself on your behalf that you had the big one in the water already. You lost the bet, you owe me a week's worth of breaks/lunch half hour (to be paid in missed ping pong, I'm getting behind my co-workers skill wise, they got a week and a half on me). Not sure the currency for ping pong skill. Also, stayed up late several nights reading, only got 5 of my 9 hours of required sleep those nights. And on two occasions I blew off working on my own boat to read Little Idea's entire thread, (also your fault for linking to it here).(And by work on my own boat, I mean work on my MIL's greenhouse, almost done, One day project taking 4. When it's done, I can get back to my boat full time, according to my boss. I have actually sneaked out to the shop and made some progress, but only after my B1/2 was asleep of an evening). Don't know the currency for missed sleep or boat building time either (OK, boat restoring time, to be more accurate).

    I'm willing to negotiate: You get the big boat in the water, and we're even. Or maybe at that point I will owe you, for lighting several fires under my A$$. I used to work like you in my 20's and 30's, got a lot of sh%% done. Main thing is I'm putting my new rowing shell on hold and spending a weekend each with my kids building some sailing dinghies, they're 12 and 14 and still can't sail by themselves, don't tell CPS. Really, it's my only (major) parental shortcoming. Birthdays coming up, little do they know...
    Hopefully I was worthy of the lost ping pong skills. Debatable...
    I catalog all the time spent on this site as educational / inspirational research so not actually time wasted. I gave up television (90% reduction, even DrWho :-( ) to find a whole new lifetime of time.

    3 matching sailing dinghies & sand bags to equal out your and the kids weights and let the regattas commence!



    Now step away from the computer and go get to work!

    (sips coffee with legs under blanket and covered by pugs on couch; provide motivation "check")
    "what could go wrong?"

  10. #605
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Central Florida
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    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Quote Originally Posted by dbrown View Post
    I've posted enough pictures to know that it's no small chore, so, thanks for sharing your efforts with us. Looking forward to the launch of your 1:1 boat. I think your'e going to tump over, but then when I look at cruise ships I think they are going to tump over too, but they don't. Good luck.
    Thanks! I've added a second tabernacle on the bottom so I can just continue sailing after it rolls over, so no worries there.
    "what could go wrong?"

  11. #606
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    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Quote Originally Posted by davebrown View Post
    Well shoot. My motto is You only fail if you quit, so you haven't failed under my paradigm. I agree with the bulb keel suggestion on the big boy.
    I was wondering why you double posted at first.

    i've some penciled sketches of a bulb ended long narrow dagger board replacement but will need to add support to the trunk

    re failing... don't tell anyone but it's possible I failed 2 years ago when I chose this design over a Sharpie Book sharpie that I could have had done in 6ish months and actually been sailing on all this time...

    live and learn, live at least...
    "what could go wrong?"

  12. #607
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    361

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Little View Post
    Hi Measures.

    Thats brilliant!

    Theres some bits here that might be worth considering...


    Looking at your launch pics...

    The wind seems to be coming off the dock from behind you to your left as you look at the water. I think that from the direction your flag is flying.

    The wind looks at least 10 mph, judging by how badly its chopping up on the far side of the basin - which I would guess at being only 50 metres or yards wide. No whitecaps in the distance suggests its under 15 mph.

    You set your boat to sail away from you. I guess your hull would run at about 3mph.

    "Minnie just tilted to 10 degrees and sailed off like a champ" Thats an awkward direction to sail in as the boat can trip over its own keel.

    Im guessing again that the gusts were 13mph, which when the hull speed is deducted, would leave 10mph of windspeed hitting the back of your boat.

    Your boat just proved capable of withstanding that.

    Pulling it to a sudden stop adds momentum to the 13 mph gust, along with whatever speed you add to pull the boat along backwards.

    Im guessing 3 mph backwards as this is fairly easy to pull.

    When you push a boat hull through water, it builds a wave in front of itself. Basically, it builds it on the leeward front side, then tries to climb over it which can help to stabilise the hull. This effect is strong enough that it is what you use get a boat to plane, and get hydrofoil hulls to completely climb out of the water.

    This wave disappears when the hull stops. Pulling it backwards would build one on the rear windward side and I would expect any of my sail boats would also tip over if I did that to them.

    So...With the hull stalled, 16 mph of wind is too much, which tipped it over.

    Im guessing that 10 to 12 is where your first reef needs to be.

    Your pull it back rope needs to connect to the bow, not the stern.

    It might be a good Idea to try more weight and a pile of plastic bottles next time.

    Your Minnie sails. Not sure how you can class that as a failure.

    Good on yer.

    Little Ideas dad.
    Hi! Hope all is well with you & your sons!

    I had a nice day playing with Minnie and didn't know it was a failure until I posted here. (Not sure I qualify for 'brilliant' but thanks!)

    i've collected a pile of plastic bottles but didn't expect to get away from the dock on the first outing so left them home ( didn't have a way to keep them from bobbing out if she went down) but now...



    put a second cross bar and made a cover insert, also cut an access panel since this pic, not realistic to big brother but then there is also no wee captain to bail her out either (doooh! Some idjut used his marker on the wrong side of the board when tracing the cardboard pattern, I have a cabinet scraper to try on it)




    under the cover I stuffed and filled a float, will need to use several on big bro.

    I've pulled the radio awaiting new torque-er servo bits, will need to ensure the rudder arm doesn't hit the float but pretty sure I'm done with sinking.(also a waterproof receiver box)

    i've a new waterproof video camera that will help with the after action sailing analysis next time (Friday 11th, planned) will get some on board shots and some from the dock



    i went the wrong way with weight from your suggestion at the moment, I moved the forward weights back to the balance point I found with the 3rd weight which had her sitting prettiest on her lines on the water and which should be more accurately representing big bro as she is now since the weight is under the floor and the floor goes back past the trunk. (Big sis then?, planning for "Dorothy", after my gram who was ~5 when the DH was penned (not after wizard of oz))

    the front cleat is only bolted thru the deck so I didn't trust it to stay in place when returning Minnie, especially when she was in submarine mode. The aft one goes thru the rudder support block and is one with the boat.

    Thank you for the insight!

    Cheers to Clan Idea.

    Jim / MOST - (measures once, sinks thrice)
    "what could go wrong?"

  13. #608
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Central Florida
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    361

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    So I need to get big sis into the water, my to do list hasn't gotten shorter so I'm rewriting to one step:

    1). get her registered; so that's Wednesday's goal (car oil change then registrars office; it might need to be inspected (in Florida any boat >16 feet 'could' need an inspection but hopefully not [not saying it shouldn't be inspected / condemned]

    once i have registration numbers on her I can move her (have her moved?) to the sailing club property and then the real hilarity will commence...

    off to re-find all those annoying forms....

    I'm hoping if I post it here I'll actually do it...i figure if sailing Minnie is fun than Dorothy will be 3 (or 9 or 27) times the fun, not sure on how scale model fun translates to full size fun.
    "what could go wrong?"

  14. #609
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    usa
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    6,603

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    I think it's going to be windy Wednesday. Best put in a reef. . .
    __________________________________________________ ________________________

  15. #610
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    Frenchman Bay
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    59

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Measures Once for President !

    ....and immediate induction as newest member of The Intergalactic Wharf Rat Society. We know who we are.

    I'm serious this time.

    .
    Last edited by Looks at Boats; 03-16-2016 at 12:02 PM. Reason: embellishment

  16. #611
    Join Date
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    Central Florida
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    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    CK17 was right on the wind, just the cherry on the sundae of my really poor showing today...

    Now would be the time for those predicting disaster to post all the variations of "we told you so" that you can think of...

    Those that placed their bets on "roll over at dock onto side, slowly fill and then have an explosion at dock side" will be payed at 4:1...

    So last episode I managed to soak all the RC equipment, so I dried at tested it and replaced the servos with larger ones


    And so then I made a selfie stick for a new GoPro and figured out fore / aft placement, sadly never got close enough to sailing to try it (really, an explosion, I was using that prior to now for comic effect, but boom!)



    "what could go wrong?"

  17. #612
    Join Date
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    Central Florida
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    361

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build



    so the new boom servo really gave good adjustment.



    sadly the new rudder servo was locking to one side so I was rudderless from the start

    also the reduced weight from 30 to 20#s was a very significant change that made her unusable.
    I am as close to I can be for scale testing so that's how the big one should be too. Will bring 2 more 10# weights next time to check that.

    so yes, an explosion to...




    the motor controller went kablooie, not sure how that would have scaled to life size...

    ordering parts....
    "what could go wrong?"

  18. #613
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    Saint Helena Island, SC
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    9,428

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Boost junkie.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  19. #614
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    Annapolis, Maryland
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    121

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    might be just what you need . Keep plugging away, success or additional challenges are just around the corner.

  20. #615
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    Frenchman Bay
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    59

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Measures Once,

    From page 1 of this thread I respect and support what you are doing. Been there.

    Sounds like building the smaller version is partly for dialing in the ballasting etc for the original larger version ?

  21. #616
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    124

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Looks at Boats View Post
    Measures Once,

    From page 1 of this thread I respect and support what you are doing. Been there.

    Sounds like building the smaller version is partly for dialing in the ballasting etc for the original larger version ?
    I agree entirely. I may have been a bit flippant earlier, but know I fully support your efforts. Never done anything so elaborate with boats, but have done a lot with other stuff, bikes, sculptures, all kinds of hacked together stuff. Lots of times, something breaks. Then you fix it.

    The old tired design idea: form follows function? Wrong. Form follows failure, is the updated version. Keep breaking and fixing stuff until nothing breaks.

    And so what if you're re learning stuff others figured out decades or centuries ago? Never hurts for someone else to figure it out again from scratch, maybe we'll all learn something.

    We have vastly different materials available to us than we did even 20 years ago, old stuff that worked may not even be possible for a lot of us without unlimited money. New creative solutions need to be found for our current context.

    Anyway, remember, steel is heavy and cheapish. Once you figure out your maths, you might be surprised how little you need to do the job (density = 503 lb/cu ft). Concrete is only 130 lb/cu ft. Wet sand, 119 lb/cu ft, dry sand 97 lb/cu ft. Just sayin.
    Last edited by csoxford; 03-18-2016 at 12:13 PM. Reason: formatting
    Chris
    ____________________________
    Current:
    Tern, a William Atkins Pixie. Builder: Jeff Stobbe, 1997. Completed restoration 2016
    Sparkle, not a Herreshoff 12-1/2, same but stretched to 14-1/2. Builder: Jeff S, 2013.

    Previous: Ydun, Folkboat US 88, owned 1997-2000 ish, Berkeley, CA Sailed her one weekend, worked on her the next. Builder: Borresen, 1950 (Denmark)

    Spokane, WA.
    Row, sail and sleep on the beach around Lake Pend Oreille, usually near Garfield Bay, Idaho.

  22. #617
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Frenchman Bay
    Posts
    59

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    A thought re locating outside ballast:

    A temporary attachment system on outside bottom upon which ballast trial candidates can be moved fore and aft until deemed just right.
    Last edited by Looks at Boats; 03-18-2016 at 02:12 PM.

  23. #618
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Willard, Utah
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    370

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Time for an update! What progress has been made with lovely spring and summer weather? Launch date soon?

  24. #619
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    481

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    BUMP!!!!

    How`s it going? It`s raining here and I need cheering-up!

    Greetings from Autumn in Germany

    Alan.

  25. #620
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
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    Barrie, Ontario, Canada
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    4,885

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    Did it ever sail?

  26. #621
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    UK. Cornwall, Suffolk.
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    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    I too have been wondering....

  27. #622
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    481

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    BUMP!!

    I`m hungry for the latest info!....I like your approach to your projects and am hoping for news of results.

    Greetings from Germany,

    Alan.

  28. #623
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    481

    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    ANOTHER BUMP!!

    we`re missing you! How are you and your boats?

    Freezing in Germany,

    Alan.

  29. #624
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    May 2012
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    UK. Cornwall, Suffolk.
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    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    ....and bump...!

  30. #625
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    Sep 2013
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    Milwaukee, WI
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    Default Re: Dark Harbour Knockabout Build

    I was frantically searching for this thread the other day and thought it might have been deleted! I was down right worried, but Iím so glad to see that it lives!

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